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Author Topic: ETF Will Kill Bitcoin For Good” Investors Express Skepticism  (Read 320 times)
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November 11, 2018, 02:50:36 AM
 #1

Can the economists of the forum explain how the ETF opens for Wall Street the possibility of manipulating the price by diluting it with derivatives? I reckon it would be harder to do compared to gold because bitcoins can be traded easily over the counter worldwide without a need of an exchange or central authorities issuing ETFs.

Also read Andreas Antonopolous' comment because it also applies on wbtc.

In any case, wbtc is nothing but a new token issued by Bitgo for users to trade in Ethereum based decentralized exchanges while your bitcoins are in Bitgo's custody that requires KYC. I shake my head hehehe.



When the term Bitcoin ETF is mentioned in the crypto community, it is likely accompanied with a positive response precisely because of its tendency to skyrocket the token to a larger platform for investment, thus birthing bigger returns.

However, a cryptocurrency investor has expressed his concern for what might become of Bitcoin if the SEC agrees with the Bitcoin ETF applications. Certain that the token will lose its value, the user under the pseudonym “mariner2525” cried out via Reddit saying

"Bitcoin ETF is the worst thing that could ever happen to crypto. They’ve been rigging gold and silver – they will totally rig Bitcoin price by diluting it with derivatives.
After ETF- and a temporary spike in price – Bitcoin will be dead low all the time”


Antonopoulos explained that Bitcoin ETFs are aimed at making Bitcoin a tradable instrument suited for the stock market, which places it under the supervision and control of a custodian who holds the actual Bitcoin while investors are left with a share in their funds and not the Bitcoin itself.

In his words

“ETFs fundamentally violates the underlying principle of peer-to-peer money, where each user is not operating through a custodian but has direct control of their money because they have direct control of their keys”


Read in full https://zycrypto.com/etf-will-kill-bitcoin-for-good-investors-express-skepticism/

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November 11, 2018, 03:38:05 AM
Last edit: November 11, 2018, 04:05:36 AM by cellard
 #2

The bottomline is that we cannot really control all these futures contracts, derivatives, and other government setups that they create around assets so people can access said assets through them. It's how it's always been, and it's it will always be, for as long as governments exist.

When an asset gets big enough, the demand for ETF will grow and it will eventually pass.

However with bitcoin is different. Gold and other assets didn't have it's own built-in system with capped inflation and a transparent immutable ledger. This is what makes bitcoin safe against phantom derivative government scams which they indeed use to manipulate prices.

On the long term hard money always win. 1 BTC = 1 BTC. The manipulation expressed in fiat is temporal noise. If you believe this is not the case and government issued money always wins, even under pressure of infinite growing debt, that's up to you to decide.
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November 11, 2018, 04:13:11 AM
 #3

Wow, people were discussing Bitcoin's security for years, but it turns out that all you need to do to stop Bitcoin is to allow an ETF? Then why haven't any government approved it yet, especially those that are openly hostile to it, surely they would want to see Bitcoin fall, right?

Seriously though, ETF is just trading, who cares about derivatives, in the end supply and demand will sort all the things out.

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November 11, 2018, 05:52:47 AM
 #4

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young. but i don't see how it can "kill bitcoin for good"! bitcoin is still going to remain the same bitcoin regardless of how certain people trade it and get involved with it. in other words existence of ETF can not change the fundamental aspects of bitcoin.

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November 11, 2018, 06:52:22 AM
 #5

Why do some people connect the bitcoin ETF with derivatives?If btc gets ETF approved,the big institutional investors are supposed to buy and HODL bitcoin directly,without any futures contracts or any other derivatives.What does "kill bitcoin for good" mean?Do you think that bitcoin will never be a risky digital asset after the ETF approval?

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November 11, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
 #6

I do not believe any scenario in which ETFs will be a bad thing for bitcoin, there is already plenty enough channels for manipulation, at least an ETF would be under the control of the SEC. I don't think it will make a huge difference to the price though, like there are enough channels for manipulation there are enough channels for investment, I don't think an ETF will bring that much new money. As the initial post said, bitcoin is easily traded over the counter as it is.

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November 11, 2018, 12:16:26 PM
 #7

Seriously though, ETF is just trading, who cares about derivatives, in the end supply and demand will sort all the things out.

It all comes down to the underlying asset of coin backed instruments, which is Bitcoin.

Things get tricky when institutions and other entities get their hands on tons and tons of Bitcoins. It grants them the incentive they need to 'protect' their investment, or to boost it further, by forcing pressure on the developers. Coin voting could potentially become a factor to pay attention to as well. It seems so far away from where we are right now, but you can't discard these aspects.

That being said, I am of believe that institutions are on board already, and they are hoarding as many coins as they can through the OTC market. Another thing is that they could easily end up taking over Coinbase eventually, and I don't think we're very far away from that; give it a year or two.

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November 11, 2018, 12:24:49 PM
 #8

I don't think that ETF will influence Bitcoin in a bad way, that doesn't seem to be likely. In contrary it might make positive impact on the price although not in some huge scale and probably only temporary.
But at this moment it's still not clear if ETF will actually be  approved or not so everything connected to that is just speculation.
And if it will be, then big investors will come to the stage.

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November 12, 2018, 01:40:15 AM
 #9

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young.

Can you give examples on how the ETF and bitcoin derivatives markets can be bad? Market derivatives also did not prevent gold from growing to a $7 trillion market. It might have helped it, I reckon.

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November 12, 2018, 05:39:14 AM
 #10

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young.

Can you give examples on how the ETF and bitcoin derivatives markets can be bad? Market derivatives also did not prevent gold from growing to a $7 trillion market. It might have helped it, I reckon.

i generally dislike ETFs because they shouldn't even be a thing for a currency. it is like having USD ETF, or JPY ETF. they don't make sense and bitcoin as a currency should not have an ETF just like other currencies in the world don't have them.
but also i say they are a bad thing for bitcoin mostly because of the (more) market manipulation that it can bring to bitcoin.
also an Andreas Antonopoulos video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&vl=en

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November 12, 2018, 02:24:45 PM
 #11

They are making this up, I am pretty sure I can find "investors" who think ETF will be amazing for bitcoin as well, I can find investors who say bitcoin will be a million dollars and I can find ones that say bitcoin will be a thousand dollars soon. There are all kinds of people around the world and all have their own opinions. No one really entitled to make others think like them, we all have our own thoughts.

Yes, I am sure this "investors" have did some good before but doesn't mean they will be right again, doesn't mean they will be anything again. Maybe some of them will stop being an investor, maybe already have after saying this. Don't believe in what anyone says, just go out there and do your own research on subjects like this, would make a lot more sense if you were the one checking for yourself.


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November 12, 2018, 03:29:10 PM
 #12

From inception I have been against this ETF issues and I think the major reason by bitcoin and cryptocurrencies market keep suffer setbacks is because of rejection of ETF by sec.  I wonder the impact it will make if it is approve as a lot of damage has been done to bitcoin because of this ETF issues.
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November 12, 2018, 03:40:23 PM
Merited by Bitcoinaire (1)
 #13

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young.

Can you give examples on how the ETF and bitcoin derivatives markets can be bad? Market derivatives also did not prevent gold from growing to a $7 trillion market. It might have helped it, I reckon.

i generally dislike ETFs because they shouldn't even be a thing for a currency. it is like having USD ETF, or JPY ETF. they don't make sense and bitcoin as a currency should not have an ETF just like other currencies in the world don't have them.
but also i say they are a bad thing for bitcoin mostly because of the (more) market manipulation that it can bring to bitcoin.
also an Andreas Antonopoulos video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&vl=en


I think most people don't consider bitcoin a currency, but some sort of asset, I think in japan is seen as a property. The point is, governments are going whatever they want about it.

If it's of any use, there is this chart comparative with bitcoin and gold when it introduced the ETF, it seems similar:




The ETF should be bullish because it's supposedly bitcoin settled, so they must buy BTC to meet contract obligations, whereas the futures contracts aren't backed by BTC so it was bearish.
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November 12, 2018, 03:51:55 PM
 #14

Its being a while since I read about controversy surrounding this ETF of a thing and the house is surely divided along two sides. While some are of the opinion that the best thing that could hapen to crypto especially bitcoin is thee approval of ETFs now I am reading here that the worst thing that we could hope for is the ETFs. While both sides could be right in their respective arguments, I am also of the opinion that its not something that can be stopped because eventually, the determinant of whether its going to either bring the woe to the market or not depends on SEC.

But what we can do is to stop further support to it which comes in the minute form such as creating threads about it, reporting news about it, announcing the filing or rejection about it or even participating in polls about ETF.



 
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November 12, 2018, 06:57:35 PM
 #15

Can the economists of the forum explain how the ETF opens for Wall Street the possibility of manipulating the price by diluting it with derivatives? I reckon it would be harder to do compared to gold because bitcoins can be traded easily over the counter worldwide without a need of an exchange or central authorities issuing ETFs.

For a lot of people, what seems to matter is whether an instrument is "backed" by an underlying asset, vs. debt or equity notes or fractional reserve based notes. Even though commodity backing is trust-based, the peg will generally function correctly as long as traders who want to take physical delivery can do so. This is how the gold market works. It's also how Tether works. It leaves room for manipulation via leverage. For example, shorting with non-BTC collateral. Or also things like asset commingling, which can dilute supply if investors begin treating physically delivered futures as equivalent to real bitcoins.

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November 13, 2018, 12:57:50 AM
 #16

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young.

Can you give examples on how the ETF and bitcoin derivatives markets can be bad? Market derivatives also did not prevent gold from growing to a $7 trillion market. It might have helped it, I reckon.

i generally dislike ETFs because they shouldn't even be a thing for a currency. it is like having USD ETF, or JPY ETF. they don't make sense and bitcoin as a currency should not have an ETF just like other currencies in the world don't have them.
but also i say they are a bad thing for bitcoin mostly because of the (more) market manipulation that it can bring to bitcoin.
also an Andreas Antonopoulos video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&vl=en

But I reckon bitcoin is almost not treated as a currency but more as an investment in a digital gold type of asset. Agreed that it might bring more manipulation but it is already manipulated nevertheless.

ETFs and other derivatives brought gold to be a $7 trillion market, why do you reckon will it not bring the same to bitcoin?

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November 13, 2018, 01:24:24 AM
 #17


....

I reckon bitcoin is almost not treated as a currency but more as an investment in a digital gold type of asset. Agreed that it might bring more manipulation but it is already manipulated nevertheless.

ETFs and other derivatives brought gold to be a $7 trillion market, why do you reckon will it not bring the same to bitcoin?

gold with its ETFS and derivatives is a big, but insane market, with recently more than 380 "paper" ounces for one metal ounce.

does not know if this is sustainable on the long term.

however short term, it allows to control tightly the price of underlying asset.
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November 13, 2018, 05:20:22 AM
 #18

~
I think most people don't consider bitcoin a currency, but some sort of asset, I think in japan is seen as a property. The point is, governments are going whatever they want about it.

If it's of any use, there is this chart comparative with bitcoin and gold when it introduced the ETF, it seems similar:

Japan is like the iconic country that actually sees bitcoin as a currency (aka a legal way of payment as they put it). and i am not talking about governments and what they see in bitcoin, but instead about what bitcoin really is.
you can't use that chart because bitcoin and gold have nothing in common to begin with and also because the scale of that chart is manipulated. bitcoin's chart is for less than 10 years while gold is for more than 50! besides bitcoin isn't rising because of some ETF, but it is rising because it is a global decentralized payment system that nobody can censor.

~
But I reckon bitcoin is almost not treated as a currency but more as an investment in a digital gold type of asset. Agreed that it might bring more manipulation but it is already manipulated nevertheless.

ETFs and other derivatives brought gold to be a $7 trillion market, why do you reckon will it not bring the same to bitcoin?

the problem with seeing bitcoin as an investment not a currency is that it becomes worthless if you do that! in other words if you remove the currency aspect then you are left with some numbers in a database which you are trading virtually.
when you think about ETF and gold you can clearly see the benefit of it. because without things such as ETF if you wanted to buy gold as an investment you had to also dedicate a space in your garage for storing this gold! now with ETF you are buying gold without needing to store it. but it is not the same with bitcoin! you can store $0.01 or $100 million on a piece of paper alike. so you don't need ETF and that can only bring the manipulation part of it in the market instead. not to mention that many of the proposals don't even have to be backed by actual bitcoins!

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November 13, 2018, 08:36:27 AM
 #19

Agree that commentators who say ETFs are the catalyst for institutional investment and, therefore, Bitcoin price increases in orders of magnitude, are all on the same misguided bandwagon who have completely ignored/overlooked the very principle of Bitcoin as a peer-to-peer currency that proposed for the first time ever, money that we could exert our sole control over.

It's incredible how people still prefer having someone(s) else to take care of their money when clearly, no state, bank, or custodian has ever been infallible.

I disagree that this will kill Bitcoin, though. It'll kill the investors in those instruments, eventually, but they're all on that bandwagon.

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November 13, 2018, 09:06:39 AM
 #20

i agree with that random dude on reddit which was quoted here. ETF can be one of the worst things that can happen to bitcoin specially now that bitcoin is still young.

Can you give examples on how the ETF and bitcoin derivatives markets can be bad? Market derivatives also did not prevent gold from growing to a $7 trillion market. It might have helped it, I reckon.

i generally dislike ETFs because they shouldn't even be a thing for a currency. it is like having USD ETF, or JPY ETF. they don't make sense and bitcoin as a currency should not have an ETF just like other currencies in the world don't have them.
but also i say they are a bad thing for bitcoin mostly because of the (more) market manipulation that it can bring to bitcoin.
also an Andreas Antonopoulos video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&vl=en


I think most people don't consider bitcoin a currency, but some sort of asset, I think in japan is seen as a property. The point is, governments are going whatever they want about it.

If it's of any use, there is this chart comparative with bitcoin and gold when it introduced the ETF, it seems similar:




The ETF should be bullish because it's supposedly bitcoin settled, so they must buy BTC to meet contract obligations, whereas the futures contracts aren't backed by BTC so it was bearish.

"Buy the dip" is what that chart is telling me. Cool

With or without an ETF, Bitcoin will be priced in six digits by 2020 - 2021 because of simple economics. Less supply, more demand, and the honey badger don't care.


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