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jl777
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March 14, 2014, 02:19:03 AM
 #41

I have been invited to post here about stuff,maybe it is applicable directly to inf-com maybe not.

For those not up to date on NXTmixer (not to be confused with NXTcash) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5581086#msg5581086 is the start of a discussion with anonymint. He is understandably assuming NXTmixer was zerocoin integrated into NXT, that is NXTcash.

With the original NXTmixer proposal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5581929#msg5581929 was where anonymint left off. I have continued to improve the NXTmixer design and I dont think anonymint was fully understanding my initial proposal. Still he was surprisingly optimistic about my proposal, especially considering his usual treatment of any anonymity system.

"Accidentally" (the subconscious has a funny way of doing what is needed) the output of step Z for NXTcash is an account where you effectively teleport NXT into a totally unconnected account. However, each time you use it, you need to be careful not to link this acct with your normal acct. useful for large onetime transactions, but not practical for everyday use.

NXTmixer has two parts. One is totally decentralized encryption path between all nodes to all other nodes. Payment can be sent simply by funding a throwaway acct and encrypting that acct's passphrase with the destination's onetime public key. While this is good from a decentralization standpoint, it is a lot more susceptible to knapsack analysis to correlate payment paths. Even though analysis might be able to deduce that acctA sent funds to acctB, NXTmixer's design does not divulge who is controlling those accts. If acctA and acctB are onetime throwaway accts, knowing a payment was sent isnt really useful to somebody trying to figure out who is paying whom. Remember that after receiving funds in a shadow acct, you can immediately (next session) send it to the mixer to remove any traces of source and fund another throwaway acct to store the deposit.

Using a centralized mixer for NXT makes it almost a perfect process as there are no txouts that leave trails forever into the past. If everybody sent 100NXT to a mixer acct and a bunch of 100NXT payments come out, there is no more than a statistical correlation that is possible. To deal with the centralization weakness I have improved the design to randomly select from 100+ servers to be the designated mixer for that period. If we can have a lot more periods per day, we can further reduce the centralization problem by splitting up the payments into smaller pieces. At some point the risk due to centralization is worth the benefit gained.

"Accidentally" nodecoin is sent to a large number of nodes all at the same time and all in pretty much the same amounts. The current infrastructure cant possibly handle 20,000 AM broadcasts per minute, maybe 20,000 per hour would even be a problem. However, a dedicated set of guardian servers would be able to handle this without much problems.

nodeminer reports the 20 active peers of each NXT node to a pool server. assuming enough nodes are participating this allows the pool server to recreate the exact topology of the NXT network, every block! This was an unexpected bonus and I havent figured out all the implications. Currently the pool server simply tallies up the number of times each node is an active peer and allocates nodecoins based on that. However, it would be possible to create a NXT connections graph and publish that in realtime. The changes are not going to happen very quickly, so there could be full snapshots and incrementals from recent snapshots.

What good is this? Well,for one, it should be possible to detect attack attempts or just generally misbehaving nodes. It could also allow for a much more robust implementation of high TPS processing by identifying the ideal receiving node based on exact topology. No single node would have to be the target of all the blocks transactions. All this is pretty complicated and I am not sure of what specific benefit this has, I just know that for any attempt of dynamically adapting network topology, we need to have this data. nodecoin provides this.

Back to NXTmixer. How does it work?
At the high level, we operate in a series of sessions. Each session is started by that sessions NXTmixing server publishing is public key. immediately after this, ALL nodes broadcast their public key and a set of mixer transactions and a point to point payment, encrypted to the NXTmixer.

Even if a node does not have any transactions, it still sends out the broadcast packet. This eliminates all time based attacks as all the nodes look the same! The point of each node having a public key for each session is that any other node can send it a point to point payment. All the nodes have to decrypt all the broadcast packets as that is the only way to know if a payment was received. I have not done timing tests, but any modern computer should be able to keep up with this as long as sessions arent once per minute.

now the mixer payment packet is where things get really interesting. Keep in mind that it is encrypted so only the designated NXTmixer server can decrypt it. Inside each packet is the designated payment acct and deposit acct.I call these the shadow acct. Any payments are cleared through a common NXT acct thus totally mixing source and all the cleared payments are sent by the mixing server at the end of the session.

By designating an acct to be a deposit acct one session and then the payment acct the next session, it is possible to receive and make payments from an account that you never even access at all. you never even publish the acct in plaintext. By specifying a NXTcash funded acct to be the payment acct, you can do the time consuming step Z once and then after that utilize those funds from your normal acct without any connection to it.

Back to nodecoin.
The problem with NXTmixer is the sheer number of transactions. Each session there would be one AM from every participating acct. This makes it cost prohibitive. Anonymity is nice,but few will pay thousands of NXT per month to have access to this. Now, what if we utilize the NXT topology we have from the nodeminer submissions? We would be able to propagate parallel broadcasts of all nodes to all other nodes with the most efficient path. We wont care about hiding which nodes we are communicating with, as everyone is talking to everyone. Unlike Tor usage which invariably raises red flags, everything with NXTmixer is on public internet. However everybody looks the same, so no information is transmitted.

The source of funds and destination of funds are only revealed inside the encryption. However, each client can monitor the blockchain to verify that payment was taken from their payment acct. This systems works so well that the sender wont know if the funds were received by the destination as the destination acct is unknown. To establish transparency on this, the destination would need to presend the deposit address to the sender. This does leak some information, but if a throwaway acct is used, then the next session, the destination acct can send a payment to itself from the throwaway deposit acct to the main shadow acct. Alternatively, there could be a convention that all deposits received would be acknowledged in one of the encrypted broadcast packets. This would then allow for fully automated minimal trust methods of splitting a payment into small pieces and sending through the mixer, waiting for destination to acknowledge before sending the next piece.

If the time per session is fast enough, this will work pretty seamlessly, though for a 1 million NXT payment you would have to be patient. The trust required is minimized to the size of the pieces the transaction is broken up into. By having servers in the guardian rotation across continents and organizations, it should provide the robustness required for use by a fully decentralized network

In order to maintain full anonymity, the client will have to enforce best practices so that the user does not make a mistake. The services of NXTmixer should be viewed as low level services only meant to be used by client software that understands the issues and manages all the shadow accts, payment streams, etc.

Anyway, these designs for all the different things I am working on are always percolating in my mind and until the code comes out I am not totally sure of all the details. Even after the first version, still many iterations to evolve to a final implementation. I have found this method to be particularly effective when solving "impossible" problems as it is not possible for me to see ahead of time exactly what is needed. I left out the multisig gateway in this discussion, but I do have some ideas on mixing non-NXT deposits, though people will probably say that will destroy NXT Smiley

Feedback is welcome. Also if anybody is brave enough to whitepaper'ize this, that would probably be a very useful thing. I am using Daniel Bernstein's http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html encryption library for public/private key,but the design is independent of specific public/private key implementation

James

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March 14, 2014, 09:36:16 AM
 #42

So,Nxtmixer is like a Nxt collecting basin.
A want to transfer Nxt to B.
A just need to send nxt to mixer,and designate the B acc,then mixer will transfer them to B.
Right?
But,it may also find the relationship between A and B through the Nxt quantity of transaction.

 
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March 14, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
 #43

So,Nxtmixer is like a Nxt collecting basin.
A want to transfer Nxt to B.
A just need to send nxt to mixer,and designate the B acc,then mixer will transfer them to B.
Right?
But,it may also find the relationship between A and B through the Nxt quantity of transaction.
Yes it is possible, but shadow accts are not linkable to the normal acct, since all specification of NXTmixer sending and receiving accts are inside encryption

However, for the truly paranoid, the client can divide any payment into 100NXT chunks per session. It will take longer, but then all the amounts are the same to all the shadow accts, which still dont have any links to the normal acct

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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March 14, 2014, 05:13:49 PM
 #44


jean-luc says it might be better to not use the prepareBytes API call, and implement the missing 50 lines of code in the client, so that you don't have to have SSL.

"if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly"

I agree.
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March 14, 2014, 06:01:17 PM
 #45

[...]
The problem with NXTmixer is the sheer number of transactions. Each session there would be one AM from every participating acct. This makes it cost prohibitive. Anonymity is nice,but few will pay thousands of NXT per month to have access to this.
[...]

Thank you for effort so far, James.

I think anonymity is not required all the time. A person can create a shadow account apart from his regular account by funding a shadow account some NXT. This account is then be able to do all the transactions needed. Being shadow is an emergent property; there is nothing special about such accounts except that nobody knows which account funded them.

Normally people buying/selling fiat, goods etc. would need the regular account network.
In special cases, the shadow account network will be used for secret payments etc.

Only for transitioning regular and normal network, a person would need anonymity.
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March 14, 2014, 06:34:49 PM
 #46

[...]
The problem with NXTmixer is the sheer number of transactions. Each session there would be one AM from every participating acct. This makes it cost prohibitive. Anonymity is nice,but few will pay thousands of NXT per month to have access to this.
[...]

Thank you for effort so far, James.

I think anonymity is not required all the time. A person can create a shadow account apart from his regular account by funding a shadow account some NXT. This account is then be able to do all the transactions needed. Being shadow is an emergent property; there is nothing special about such accounts except that nobody knows which account funded them.

Normally people buying/selling fiat, goods etc. would need the regular account network.
In special cases, the shadow account network will be used for secret payments etc.

Only for transitioning regular and normal network, a person would need anonymity.
Exactly! That is what NXTcash will do, allow the "teleporting" to shadow acct
The client software can make all of this acct management transparent and easy to do, user error is actually the biggest vulnerability to anonymity

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March 14, 2014, 07:48:04 PM
 #47

Hey guys.  Earlier today I posted a bounty for someone to create a mining pool that mines off of profitability, dumps the coins and then uses the proceeds to buy Nxt to proportionally redistribute to the miners.

See the proposal here.

Anyway, it was mentioned that I get ahold of the Nxt Infrastructure committee and ask for support of this bounty.  As such, would you please consider either donating to this bounty or setting up one that is managed by the committee.

I don't so much care to manage the bounty but I'm more than willing too.  Likewise, since you all are more trusted that I might be, I am willing to hand over the bounty funds to you guys and updating the bounty post.  Is this possible?  If you guys are interested please let me know.  I (and many others) feel that this could be really good for Nxt.

A Personal Quote on BTT from 2011:
"I'd be willing to make a moderate "investment" if the value of the BTC went below $2.00.  Otherwise I'll just have to live with my 5 BTC and be happy. :/"  ...sigh.  If only I knew.
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March 14, 2014, 08:35:30 PM
 #48

Hey guys.  Earlier today I posted a bounty for someone to create a mining pool that mines off of profitability, dumps the coins and then uses the proceeds to buy Nxt to proportionally redistribute to the miners.

See the proposal here.

Anyway, it was mentioned that I get ahold of the Nxt Infrastructure committee and ask for support of this bounty.  As such, would you please consider either donating to this bounty or setting up one that is managed by the committee.

I don't so much care to manage the bounty but I'm more than willing too.  Likewise, since you all are more trusted that I might be, I am willing to hand over the bounty funds to you guys and updating the bounty post.  Is this possible?  If you guys are interested please let me know.  I (and many others) feel that this could be really good for Nxt.

Hi rlh!

There is the NXTCommunity fund and the funds under management of the Marketing, TechDev and Infrastructure committees. Could you explain why you see a connection between this project and the NXT Infrastructure? Thanks!

Cheers,
Marcus
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March 14, 2014, 08:47:28 PM
 #49

Hey guys.  Earlier today I posted a bounty for someone to create a mining pool that mines off of profitability, dumps the coins and then uses the proceeds to buy Nxt to proportionally redistribute to the miners.

See the proposal here.

Anyway, it was mentioned that I get ahold of the Nxt Infrastructure committee and ask for support of this bounty.  As such, would you please consider either donating to this bounty or setting up one that is managed by the committee.

I don't so much care to manage the bounty but I'm more than willing too.  Likewise, since you all are more trusted that I might be, I am willing to hand over the bounty funds to you guys and updating the bounty post.  Is this possible?  If you guys are interested please let me know.  I (and many others) feel that this could be really good for Nxt.

Hi rlh!

There is the NXTCommunity fund and the funds under management of the Marketing, TechDev and Infrastructure committees. Could you explain why you see a connection between this project and the NXT Infrastructure? Thanks!

Cheers,
Marcus

Sorry, I guess it may not belong here (although it might.)  All I know is that I think this concept could help promote and get people interested in Nxt and that others have certainly voiced that they agree with me.  Should I forward this request elsewhere?

I've personally been interested in Nxt since late December.  However, I haven't paid much attention to all of the development and community growth in the past couple of months due to life interruptions and the fact that community discussion has grown at insane pace.  I can't keep up.

A Personal Quote on BTT from 2011:
"I'd be willing to make a moderate "investment" if the value of the BTC went below $2.00.  Otherwise I'll just have to live with my 5 BTC and be happy. :/"  ...sigh.  If only I knew.
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March 14, 2014, 08:52:49 PM
 #50


jean-luc says it might be better to not use the prepareBytes API call, and implement the missing 50 lines of code in the client, so that you don't have to have SSL.

"if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly"

I agree.

Not really, as prepareBytes also validates the request, such as checking if the asset name is already taken or not, or asset issuance name, valid asset id, etc etc.. So I do prepareBytes, then validate the response by parsing it, and injecting my signature. Is that a good enough method for you?
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March 14, 2014, 08:54:05 PM
 #51

Sorry, I guess it may not belong here (although it might.)  All I know is that I think this concept could help promote and get people interested in Nxt and that others have certainly voiced that they agree with me.  Should I forward this request elsewhere?

I can't really say. I'm not into mining and your proposal is beyond me (because of that).

It doesn't sound like InfCom is the right committee to ask. Probably, the community fund or direct funding from stakeholders would be possible. In both cases, the NXT monster thread would probably be the right place to ask (which I think you did already).

@All: Correct me if I'm wrong.

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March 14, 2014, 08:56:11 PM
 #52


jean-luc says it might be better to not use the prepareBytes API call, and implement the missing 50 lines of code in the client, so that you don't have to have SSL.

"if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly"

I agree.

Not really, as prepareBytes also validates the request, such as checking if the asset name is already taken or not, or asset issuance name, valid asset id, etc etc.. So I do prepareBytes, then validate the response by parsing it, and injecting my signature. Is that a good enough method for you?

wesleyh, you have a great client, you've understood all the pros and cons of prepareByte and I'm sure you will do it right.
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March 15, 2014, 08:41:58 AM
 #53

Hey guys.  Earlier today I posted a bounty for someone to create a mining pool that mines off of profitability, dumps the coins and then uses the proceeds to buy Nxt to proportionally redistribute to the miners.

See the proposal here.

Anyway, it was mentioned that I get ahold of the Nxt Infrastructure committee and ask for support of this bounty.  As such, would you please consider either donating to this bounty or setting up one that is managed by the committee.

I don't so much care to manage the bounty but I'm more than willing too.  Likewise, since you all are more trusted that I might be, I am willing to hand over the bounty funds to you guys and updating the bounty post.  Is this possible?  If you guys are interested please let me know.  I (and many others) feel that this could be really good for Nxt.

Hi rlh!

There is the NXTCommunity fund and the funds under management of the Marketing, TechDev and Infrastructure committees. Could you explain why you see a connection between this project and the NXT Infrastructure? Thanks!

Cheers,
Marcus

Sorry, I guess it may not belong here (although it might.)  All I know is that I think this concept could help promote and get people interested in Nxt and that others have certainly voiced that they agree with me.  Should I forward this request elsewhere?

I've personally been interested in Nxt since late December.  However, I haven't paid much attention to all of the development and community growth in the past couple of months due to life interruptions and the fact that community discussion has grown at insane pace.  I can't keep up.


Congratulations for collecting the additional 100.000 NXT!
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March 15, 2014, 11:59:15 AM
 #54

Congratulations for collecting the additional 100.000 NXT!

Thank you so much!  That was/is a really big help!

A Personal Quote on BTT from 2011:
"I'd be willing to make a moderate "investment" if the value of the BTC went below $2.00.  Otherwise I'll just have to live with my 5 BTC and be happy. :/"  ...sigh.  If only I knew.
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March 15, 2014, 09:07:09 PM
 #55

Congratulations for collecting the additional 100.000 NXT!

Thank you so much!  That was/is a really big help!

I just posted on the Nextcoin thread for this, I like the idea, but it's not an Infrastructure project, not even a little bit, so the Inf-Com can't help u on this.

I do think that u now have more than enough funding to get the pool/trader combo up and running, so u just need to find a pool operator who can set it up.
Don't forget that the pool will be charging fees (usually) so this fee (1-5% on most pools) will also provide a steady income for the pool operator.
I would focus the bounty on setting up the link between the pool (because a pool is a pool, easy enough to setup) and the trading/payout system.

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March 15, 2014, 10:59:39 PM
 #56

Post from IGMACA for discussion

I do not know who is appropriate to analyze the various ideas suggested.

I understand that there must be a committee that approves or rejects these ideas.

What is clear is that the idea of nxt sold in the marketing videos, etc does not reflect what really makes nxt.

is best put in the nxt marketing that is a safe, respectful environment but centralized system that sell it that is a safe, respectful and decentralized system. I think this untruthfully in the current state of the nxt implementation.

My insistence on the concept of share fee groups is because I think it encourages the small investor to maintain their active node and hence to decentralize the network.

I think it's an alternative as valid as the leased forging power

So far I have not seen any convincing solution to this problem. I'm waiting for that node coins resolves this.

I think Nxt can not sell for much longer which is a decentralized, safe and environmentally friendly system. is not credible.

This is the reason for my insistence. Nxt I think is a great idea and I would like it have success.

I do not speak English. is not my native language
I'm not a developer. i did Not study computation

But the ideas are not owned by anyone. may simply arise to anyone. take advantage of fresh ideas is what can make a big Nxt.


with the theme forging I propose the following

each time it is going to generate a block all accounts can forge, 100000 Nxt bags are grouped.

Accounts with more than 100000 nxt one goes

The smaller accounts 100000 nxt expressly not want to be grouped  go alone

Bob's account forging and is in a bag. Their fees are divided into the bag belonging.

This solution at least provoke everyone who wants to forge receive fees every 2-3 days maximum one week.

This at least solves that small accounts are equally motivated to forge that big.

I don't quite get your english Huh

If you want to make differentiation of how big the accounts are and what fees they are getting, then the following will happen:

The big accounts divide their accounts, smaller divide their accounts, every one divides their accounts an in the end we have 1,000,000,000 accounts. And now tell me, what has changed?

Real world example:
When you turn on TV you will expect to see in 2 second some moving pictures.
Now imagine that you will have TV where you must wait 50 years before your favorite TV series will start.

This 50 years situation is today's situation with forging.
Automated grouping, Shared Forging, Leased Forging will show some progress in forging every day. Nobody will get rich from this, but it is about "It's good, I see every day what I forged" it is working and I will continue.



I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.

Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?


More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.


Instead of leasing forge power or Pooled Forging , you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...).

share fee group (share fee pool or share fee Hubs) and limiting forging power of an account to 1.000.000 Nxt coin maximum . this means 1.000 nodes to ensure minimum network

Now imagine if I am correct with 1,000,000 Nxt coins pools (share fee group)

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)

10 accounts  90.000 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  9.900 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  100 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging

Total pool (share fee group) 1.000.000 Nxt
Total 30 Nodes participate in forging in this exemple

Chance to forge 0,001
rate forging 1440 blocs per day
526 Blocs per year
aprox 1,44 Blocs per day. 100 Nxt account is forging every day. receives fees in proportion to their funds every day!!!

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)
30.000 Nodes participate in forging. if there are only 30 accounts linked per pool (share fee group)

this means;

Extremely decentralized network (in the exemple 30.000 Nodes) and therefore very secure network
Small accounts motivated to participate in forging (In the exemple 100 Nxt account is forging every day not every 10 year)
rich and poor have the same chance to forge because everybody forge everyday!!!!

1440 blocs per day means that 1.000.000 Nxt share fee group (many nodes) or one account (one node) forge every day

You just have to solve for the fees to be sufficiently attractive.

An interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased computing power
Other interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased memory storage capacity

Perhaps creating nodes coins proposed by jl777 implementing shared  fees pool  would be technically easier.

Could distribute node coins to the participants in the pool (share fee group) at all times proportion to the funds of each participant if any member had success in forging.


I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.

Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others and vice versa
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

Quote
...
the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.
...
In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will be addicted and they will forge.

Quote from: mthcl
Quote from: igmaca
limit forging power 1/3 active balance.

this means you need to continuously monitor which is the total active balance everytime and limit forging power to 1/3 active balance maximun per account.

this can be interesting as inlet will penalize large accounts for small.

You mean 1/3 of total active balance (i.e., of all accounts together)? Yes, this may be a good idea (not with 1/3, which is kind of critical, but, say, 0.1). I only  don't know if this is computationally costly...

It could limit the power of forging under two restrictions;

a) limit forging power to 0.1 total active balance maximun per account.
b) chance forging is about one day



one Raspberry pi node to forge must be active.
if a raspberry pi node gets forge shares its fee with other Raspberry Pi nodes pointing to the same Special node. (one of the 1,000 Special nodes for example "XX" )

note the criteria to limit the power of forging an account 1,000,000 nxt is due to 1440 blocks are generated in a day and therefore the chance is about one day.

if the number of blocks per day for example increase to 14400 per day the criteria to limit the power of forging change to 100,000 nxt account as tantamount to a chance of about one day.

why one day?
because all accounts that they want to forge if they are always active every day receive fees
keeps the interest in forging and maintain the node active everytime



"XX" Special node forge a slave parallel bloc because power forge depends by Raspberry Pi nodes

"XX" Special node

can split the fees if a Raspberry pi node gets forge to all Raspberry pi nodes that point to "XX" node in proportion to the amount of funds each node (account) has

what happens if you attack one of the 1,000 nodes?

as the power to forge remains in raspberri pi nodes the network security remains unchanged.


Where do the numbers 1/3 and .1 come from.  I still dont understand the problem we are trying to solve here

https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=836

I read that earlier today.  did you read that?  it was arbitrary, no math behind it.

http://www.docdroid.net/9yub/forging.pdf.html

Quote
It Should be Observed That this probability does not out stretch to 0 (asm! 1) if the bad guy has at Least 1 = 3 of all active balances in the network in the case of U-algorithm (corresondingly, At Least 1 = 2 in the case of exp-algorithm). There should exist some  speci fic  methods  for  protecting network against Such an attack in the CASE WHEN there is risk that (active) relative balance of the bad guy Could Become larger than the above threshold

it may be a good idea to limit the forging power of accounts by some fixed  threshold,  e.g.,  if  an  account  has  more  than,  say,  300K  NXT,then it forges as if it had exactly 300K NXT. Of course, a rich guy can split his fortune between smaller accounts, but then all those accounts would forge roughly as one big account (without threshold) under Exp-algorithm.   One  can  one  use  the  computationally  easier  U-algorithm without having the drawbacks discussed in this section.

how to interpret the 1 = 3 and 1 = 2 parts?  Nevermind, from the paper, its 1/3 and 1/2.  The problem is theres no way to determine "all active balances".  I suggested limiting effectiveBalance a few weeks ago, but 300K seems excessively excessively harsh, and will also make a 1000tps network pretty much unfeasable, since it would require literally thousands of TF nodes that publish their IP and have DDoS protection, HA redundancy, etc

This is the question. if you can not know in real time the all efecctive balance  must to look for another solution.,

would have to conciliate the following features in my humble opinion;

a) limit forging power to 0.1 (limit 1/3)  total active balance maximun per account.
b) chance forging for any account and funds must be about one day (share fee group)

if you have 1.000 VPS nodes (share fee groups) and you limit forging power to 1.000.000 Nxt per account

then

1440 blocs per day means that 1.000.000 Nxt share fee group (many nodes) or one account (one node) forge every day
if you have more than 10.000.000 Nxt in this 1.000 VPS nodes then 1.000.000 Nxt per account is less or equal
than 0.1 * 10.000.000 Nxt = 1.000.000 Nxt


c) 1000 TPS

perhaps this 1.000 vps special node can drive 1000 tps



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chanc3r
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March 15, 2014, 11:00:57 PM
 #57

THIS IS A SECOND POST FROM IGMACA FOR DISCUSSION

Also request to be approved or rejected by the committee the following second proposal

The active nodes receive two fees

A small fee for each transaction in the Nxt AE independent of fund account
A small fee as currently does nxt if node forges

Nxt AE charges a small fee for each transaction and Distributes the fee to the active nodes.

if you want to use Nxt AE You have to use Nxt coins to pay the fees

Nxt Becomes much more valuable. nxt coins purchase is Necessary to use Nxt AE

Nxt platform Remains green.
Nxt platform Improves its security. people are incentivated to Maintain active nodes
Nxt platform Improves its decentralization. people wantsare incentivated to Maintain active nodes



This is my question as well.  Instead of using nodecoin as the sole incentive for running a node...why not let the OTHER assets on NXT be the reward?  You could reward people small amounts of any coin (or asset) they desire from the trading fees (small amounts...say 0.00000010 or less).  Someone with a large stake in NXT could get slightly higher amounts.  That way even someone that has just 1NXT...gets something for being an active node.  That would give one hell of an incentive to get into NXT.  Everyone becomes there own micro exchange.

Am I completely off base here?

of course! is a great idea!!!!

Everyone becomes there own micro exchange.

this is the solution. Nxt AE charges a small Nxt coin fee for each transaction and distributes
the fee to the active nodes


The active nodes receive two fees

A fee for each exchange assets independent of fund account
A fee as currently does nxt if node forges

if you want to use Nxt AE you have to use Nxt coins to pay the fees


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chanc3r
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March 15, 2014, 11:02:14 PM
 #58

THIS IS A THIRD POST FROM IGMACA FOR DISCUSSION


Thank you for answering my message.

It is very difficult for me to summarize the idea. I am not native Exnglish speaker
 
abstract

a) limit forging power to 0.1 (limit 1/3)  total active balance maximun per account.
b) probability of forging success for any account and funds must be about one day (share fee group)


if you have 1.000 groups (share fee groups) and you limit forging power to 1.000.000 Nxt per account

then

1440 blocs per day means that 1.000.000 Nxt share fee group (many nodes) or one account (one node) forge every day
if you have more than 10.000.000 Nxt in for example 1.000 VPS nodes then 1.000.000 Nxt per account is less or equal than 0.1 * 10.000.000 Nxt = 1.000.000 Nxt


see attached file

http://www.docdroid.net/9yub/forging.pdf.html

Quote
It Should be Observed That this probability does not out stretch to 0 (asm! 1) if the bad guy has at Least 1 = 3 of all active balances in the network in the case of U-algorithm (corresondingly, At Least 1 = 2 in the case of exp-algorithm). There should exist some  speci fic  methods  for  protecting network against Such an attack in the CASE WHEN there is risk that (active) relative balance of the bad guy Could Become larger than the above threshold

it may be a good idea to limit the forging power of accounts by some fixed  threshold,  e.g.,  if  an  account  has  more  than,  say,  300K  NXT,then it forges as if it had exactly 300K NXT. Of course, a rich guy can split his fortune between smaller accounts, but then all those accounts would forge roughly as one big account (without threshold) under Exp-algorithm.   One  can  one  use  the  computationally  easier  U-algorithm without having the drawbacks discussed in this section.

Quote
I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.

Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?



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EvilDave
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March 16, 2014, 12:04:22 AM
 #59

Bloody hell, Ian and Igmaca.....

I must confess that Igmacas posts make my head hurt a little, and I may be unfairly ignoring him because of it.
My own personal time issues don't help, either.
Does anyone have a brief summary of Igmacas idea(s), for the slow among us?

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
opticalcarrier
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March 16, 2014, 01:28:34 AM
 #60

Bloody hell, Ian and Igmaca.....

I must confess that Igmacas posts make my head hurt a little, and I may be unfairly ignoring him because of it.
My own personal time issues don't help, either.
Does anyone have a brief summary of Igmacas idea(s), for the slow among us?

hes suggesting an idea but I cannot tell how he intends the network to enforce it
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