What is your net return in USD?

[Dan The Man]

Exclude any mining income because it gets a bit trickier to calculate the cost, or perhaps considering the starting capital as the first sale to USD. Just counting buying and selling how have you performed thus far? I just found myself to be down by about 12%, but that is at least an improvement from the deep hole I dug myself earlier this month.

[SgtSpike]

Started in April.  I'm up at least 100%, if not more.

[payb.tc]

hmm, where's the 'more than 10,000%' option?

not that i'd pick it, personally.

[Dan The Man]

hmm, where's the 'more than 10,000%' option?

not that i'd pick it, personally.

Too late to change the polls, Vote +50% and just say it here if you want to.

[Tuxavant]

My cost basis is about $3.22, which is about the current market value.

[mjcmurfy]

I'd be more interested to hear people's return in bitcoin.

If I was going to trade on the exchanges, I would do it to gain more bitcoin, not more fiat. I mean, why bother trading bitcoin at all if it is fiat profit you want? There are plenty of better, safer and much less risky investment vehicles to let you do that, but none of those can let you earn bitcoin.

People are still missing the whole point of bitcoin and are looking at this in completely the wrong way.

[Dan The Man]

I'd be more interested to hear people's return in bitcoin. When I trade on the exchanges, I am doing it to gain more bitcoin, not more fiat.
Why bother trading bitcoin at all if it is fiat profit you want?
There are plenty of better instruments to let you do that, but none of those can let you earn bitcoin.
People are still missing the whole point of bitcoin and are looking at this in completely the wrong way.

Because the majority of people started their "investment" with dollars. They know what their initial capital was in USD, so it's easiest to calculate return in USD. Not everyone remembers the exchange rate at every time that they deposited USD into the system, so it would be harder to figure out bitcoin return..

[mjcmurfy]

I guess I just assumed that anyone who invested in bitcoin with usd did so because they believed that a p2p cryptocurrency is better than fiat currency, or would be so in the future. So why then care about fiat profits?

If the value of the usd is inflated to nothing, then it will seem like you have made an absolute fortune in fiat, when in fact you retain the exact same purchasing power as you started with. You have gained nothing.

If people are investing in bitcoin solely to realize fiat profit, what is the bloody point? Trade forex, stocks and shares, bonds or commodities. They are far more reliable markets with much higher trade volume, so you are much less likely to lose your precious fiat.

The motives driving this behavior still confuses me.

[Tuxavant]

If people are investing in bitcoin solely to realize fiat profit, what is the bloody point? Trade forex, stocks and shares, bonds or commodities. They are far more reliable markets with much higher trade volume, so you are much less likely to lose your precious fiat.

it's just a relative reference. I dont plan on giving up my Bitcoins until Bitcoin is ubiquitous. At that time, I feel the few I have will be worth a lot more than today. If Bitcoin really is ubiquitous by then, I'll just start spending the Bitcoins unless there is some caveman that has something I want and only accepts fiat.

[SgtSpike]

I guess I just assumed that anyone who invested in bitcoin with usd did so because they believed that a p2p cryptocurrency is better than fiat currency, or would be so in the future. So why then care about fiat profits?

If the value of the usd is inflated to nothing, then it will seem like you have made an absolute fortune in fiat, when in fact you retain the exact same purchasing power as you started with. You have gained nothing.

If people are investing in bitcoin solely to realize fiat profit, what is the bloody point? Trade forex, stocks and shares, bonds or commodities. They are far more reliable markets with much higher trade volume, so you are much less likely to lose your precious fiat.

The motives driving this behavior still confuses me.

I thought we were talking mining.  I invested in mining equipment, and had a return on that investment in USD, because I traded the coins I mined for USD.

[mjcmurfy]

it's just a relative reference.

I know, but it seems such a pointless reference though?

If you invest in bitcoin, you obviously realize the failures of fiat and its doomed future. So why keep pegging the value of a coin to how much it can be traded for in fiat? The only motive I can see for doing it is that you much prefer fiat and don't give a crap about bitcoin other than how much profit it can put in your bank account. But if this is the case, you are a stupid investor because there are many better fiat investment opportunities.

Logic tells you that anyone trading bitcoin for fiat profit is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

[mjcmurfy]

I thought we were talking mining.  I invested in mining equipment, and had a return on that investment in USD, because I traded the coins I mined for USD.

Nope. This is the speculation forum, not the mining forum. And the OP specifically said to exclude mining income from this discussion. The profits being referred to here are those derived from the buying and selling of bitcoin for speculative reasons.

[Tuxavant]

I know, but it seems such a pointless reference though?

If you invest in bitcoin, you obviously realize the failures of fiat and its doomed future. So why keep pegging the value of a coin to how much it can be traded for in fiat? The only motive I can see for doing it is that you much prefer fiat and don't give a crap about bitcoin other than how much profit it can put in your bank account. But if this is the case, you are a stupid investor because there are many better fiat investment opportunities.

Logic tells you that anyone trading bitcoin for fiat profit is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

No, it's really not a pointless reference... a currency has to be relative to some other store of value to establish its own value. It's like velocity in space - It only means something relative to other objects. You could value your bitcoins in Toyota Trucks, but that would be rather difficult. Everyone understands commons like USD, Gold, etc..

[Sargasm]

Well... on speculation on BTC I'm up about 10%.

On my investment mining, I'm at about 7% of my total investment.

My outlook is about 240 days to break even.  I purchased my hardware at extremely competitive prices, although a couple times I wish I'd taken advantage of a couple opportunities better (namely, the $179 shipped 5870, would have grabbed like 3 more).

This is a long term thing for me though.  I'm only speculating on BTC because I am still expecting prices to stabilize.  Somewhat ironically, if they do, I'll likely loose whatever gains I make speculating because I'll probably end up buying late since I hedge against all my speculation.  

In the long run that won't matter (dollar cost averaging) presuming the gains are consistent and reasonably good (10% per annum appreciation in commodity value).

[SgtSpike]

it's just a relative reference.

I know, but it seems such a pointless reference though?

If you invest in bitcoin, you obviously realize the failures of fiat and its doomed future. So why keep pegging the value of a coin to how much it can be traded for in fiat? The only motive I can see for doing it is that you much prefer fiat and don't give a crap about bitcoin other than how much profit it can put in your bank account. But if this is the case, you are a stupid investor because there are many better fiat investment opportunities.

Logic tells you that anyone trading bitcoin for fiat profit is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Who are you to say what is a stupid investment and what is not?  How many people here have made a fortune just day-trading BTC?  Wherever there is money to be lost, there is money to be gained.  One man's mistake is another man's windfall.  It's the same no matter what you trade.  The only thing that makes one market better for you to trade in than another is how well you know that market.  Some people know the BTC market very well, and can make >50% successful predictions on market movement, thus can make money (in USD) trading on a bitcoin market.  Not to mention, the exchange fees are much lower than exchange fees for typical stocks and commodities (unless, of course, you are a broker yourself).

So why do you say there are many better fiat investment opportunities, when that may very well not be the case for many of the people here?  Who are you to say something like that?

Sorry you feel that I am suffering from cognitive dissonance - I assure you, that is not the case.

[mjcmurfy]

I know, but it seems such a pointless reference though?

If you invest in bitcoin, you obviously realize the failures of fiat and its doomed future. So why keep pegging the value of a coin to how much it can be traded for in fiat? The only motive I can see for doing it is that you much prefer fiat and don't give a crap about bitcoin other than how much profit it can put in your bank account. But if this is the case, you are a stupid investor because there are many better fiat investment opportunities.

Logic tells you that anyone trading bitcoin for fiat profit is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

No, it's really not a pointless reference... a currency has to be relative to some other store of value to establish its own value. It's like velocity in space - It only means something relative to other objects. You could value your bitcoins in Toyota Trucks, but that would be rather difficult. Everyone understands commons like USD, Gold, etc..

Yep, completely right. But the only TRUE value is in it's purchasing power in the bitcoin economy, not the fiat exchange rate. Trading currencies for other currencies won't gain you more value, just more currency - but you usually just wind up with the exact same purchasing power as you started with. It's a good hedge of fiat value, but not a good investment for fiat profit.

[mjcmurfy]

Who are you to say what is a stupid investment and what is not?

I'm just me, and what I say reflects the things that I see and read.

How many people here have made a fortune just day-trading BTC?

No idea. Care to enlighten me?

Wherever there is money to be lost, there is money to be gained.  One man's mistake is another man's windfall.

Thats a good ethic. Very moral of you.

So why do you say there are many better fiat investment opportunities, when that may very well not be the case for many of the people here?  Who are you to say something like that?

Because as I explained, the idea of bitcoin is in direct juxtaposition to the idea of fiat currency. So what is the point of investing in something for fiat profit when the thing you are investing in will eventually destroy fiat currency altogether, along with all your profits, if your predictions are successful? It is a stark contradiction.

Sorry you feel that I am suffering from cognitive dissonance - I assure you, that is not the case.

No need to apologize. My logic is simple. Because of the reasons already outlined, fiat speculators are either stupid, or are suffering from conflicting ideology - i.e. cognitive dissonance. Stupid is more likely though.

[SgtSpike]

I know, but it seems such a pointless reference though?

If you invest in bitcoin, you obviously realize the failures of fiat and its doomed future. So why keep pegging the value of a coin to how much it can be traded for in fiat? The only motive I can see for doing it is that you much prefer fiat and don't give a crap about bitcoin other than how much profit it can put in your bank account. But if this is the case, you are a stupid investor because there are many better fiat investment opportunities.

Logic tells you that anyone trading bitcoin for fiat profit is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

No, it's really not a pointless reference... a currency has to be relative to some other store of value to establish its own value. It's like velocity in space - It only means something relative to other objects. You could value your bitcoins in Toyota Trucks, but that would be rather difficult. Everyone understands commons like USD, Gold, etc..

Yep, completely right. But the only TRUE value is in it's purchasing power in the bitcoin economy, not the fiat exchange rate. Trading currencies for other currencies won't gain you more value, just more currency - but you usually just wind up with the exact same purchasing power as you started with. It's a good hedge of fiat value, but not a good investment for fiat profit.

You're wrong.  There's no reason that someone couldn't profit off of fluctuations between the values of different currencies.  If I bought 1000 BTC at $1 each, then sold all of them at $30 each, then I just profited $29,000.  The US dollar didn't drop in value by 98%, but I still made equivalent profits, and my purchasing power did indeed increase.

[mjcmurfy]

You're wrong.  There's no reason that someone couldn't profit off of fluctuations between the values of different currencies.  If I bought 1000 BTC at $1 each, then sold all of them at $30 each, then I just profited $29,000.  The US dollar didn't drop in value by 98%, but I still made equivalent profits, and my purchasing power did indeed increase.

... because of an asset bubble, yes. Congratulations!

Even the most dull-brained person can profit in a speculative asset bubble.
With the proviso that you are a moral vacuum of course.

[SgtSpike]

You're wrong.  There's no reason that someone couldn't profit off of fluctuations between the values of different currencies.  If I bought 1000 BTC at $1 each, then sold all of them at $30 each, then I just profited $29,000.  The US dollar didn't drop in value by 98%, but I still made equivalent profits, and my purchasing power did indeed increase.

... because of an asset bubble, yes.
Congratulations. Even the most dull-brained person can profit in a speculative asset bubble.

I just don't even know what to say.  You're contradicting yourself left and right.

Here's what you said a couple of posts ago:   

Trading currencies for other currencies won't gain you more value, just more currency - but you usually just wind up with the exact same purchasing power as you started with. It's a good hedge of fiat value, but not a good investment for fiat profit.

So you say you can't trade currencies for other currencies without keeping the exact same purchasing power, but then say you can profit in a speculative asset bubble (in other words, profit by trading currencies for other currencies).