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Author Topic: Gender identity, bigotry and being categorized.  (Read 421 times)
xtraelv (OP)
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November 21, 2018, 02:19:17 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), The Sceptical Chymist (3), paxmao (2), o_e_l_e_o (2), ABCbits (1)
 #1

I'm a fairly tolerant person and have always lived my life on the basis of - if people leave me alone and their actions are not damaging towards me or others then I don't care what they do.

If they want to take part in a hedonistic lifestyle, strict religious lifestyle, be sexually attracted to objects or identify as binary neutral - I really don't care.

I don't judge people on their cultural identity or sexual identity - but rather how they contribute towards society behave towards me and people I care about.

But recent changes are causing issues in regards to freedom of expression and free speech. - This is something I feel very passionate about.

People should have the right to express their thoughts and opinions. Regardless of how stupid or pointless they may be. It should not be legislated and I agree with the views of Jordan Peterson in that regard.

People shouldn't be limiting to being categorized into their census categories. To do so creates more bigotry rather than reduce it.
Being reduced to a category offends me. I dislike census and Government forms. It is institutional categorization that I do not identify with.

There is a very interesting article here about it:
https://fcpp.org/2018/11/09/sympathizing-with-minorities/

With some amusement:
Legal fight to identify as 20 years younger
His actions are identifying some of the problems with institutional categorizations.


Quote
A 69-year-old Dutch “positivity guru” who says he does not feel his age has started a battle to make himself legally 20 years younger on the grounds that he is being discriminated against on a dating app.

Emile Ratelband told a court in Arnhem in the Netherlands that he did not feel “comfortable” with his date of birth, and compared his wish to alter it to people who identified as transgender.

Ratelband said that due to having an official age that did not reflect his emotional state he was struggling to find both work and love. He has asked for his date of birth to be changed from 11 March 1949 to 11 March 1969.

“When I’m 69, I am limited. If I’m 49, then I can buy a new house, drive a different car,” he said. “I can take up more work. When I’m on Tinder and it says I’m 69, I don’t get an answer. When I’m 49, with the face I have, I will be in a luxurious position.”

Doctors had told him his body was that of a 45-year-old man, Ratelband argued. He described himself as a “young god”
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November 21, 2018, 11:53:01 PM
 #2

Why does it matter what his number is on a piece of paper? He can literally do all the things he is mentioning if he is in good health.

People do biologically age at different rates.  You can expand the lifespan of any creature with calorie restriction.  If you take two sets of rats and feed one every other day they will live 40% longer.
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November 22, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
Merited by paxmao (2), o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #3

It's a very strange new world we're living in--"tolerance" has gone way too far.  I've seen some video of a person who's insisting on being identified as a 6-year old girl (and it's a guy in his 40s if I'm not mistaken), and the general feeling I get is that if anyone questions the reality behind someone's identity, they're labeled as bigots, racists, homophobes, and a bunch of other identity politics buzzslurs.

I'm just barricaded inside my hovel, waiting for the madness to pass.  This started in earnest sometime around 2013 IIRC, so it might be a while before reality and sanity start to make a comeback, but it can't be that long.  Can it?

I've seen quite a few of Jordan Peterson's videos, and he's usually right on the money.  I especially like his stance on not being forced to use specific gender pronouns.  He's got a good argument on that one.
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November 23, 2018, 12:26:05 AM
 #4

The only problem is the given tolerance/freedom in this fields (human categorization) is abused to bend the truth by identity as something different or used as excuse to do something bad.

While i get the fact that people want to stay/feel young, denying the fact that he's 69 years old (and ignoring the math) is a joke

The counter argument to that is that he is being discriminated against based on age. Rather than taking into account his health he will be denied a mortgage based on age (perceived risk he might die or have to stop work before mortgage is repaid).

Rather than take into account his looks and health younger women are avoiding him because tinder is unlikely to even match them to him.

The same arguments of bending the truth by identity as something different can be being made for change of sex on birth certificates or changing names by deedpoll.

If the categorizations didn't exist or ceased to be of any importance  then there would be no need for people to change them.

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November 25, 2018, 12:17:36 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4), suchmoon (4), The Sceptical Chymist (2), ABCbits (1), xtraelv (1)
 #5

I largely agree with your points - I have no issues with anyone doing anything they like with their lives, provided you are not infringing on the rights of anybody else. As per Peterson's argument, legally mandating what people can and cannot say crosses that line, and it is where my support for these issues ends. If you want to spend your life believing that you are a cat, then go for it. If that's what makes you happy, then all the more power to you. You don't bother me and I won't bother you. But don't expect me to go out of my way to change my life for your benefit. That's not how it works.

On your point about categorizations not being important I have to disagree, though. I work in healthcare, and categories such as age, sex and race all change what diseases you are at risk of. Some diseases are X-linked recessive - if you don't tell me you were born as a gender different to the one you are now, your diagnosis is going to be near-impossible. Many diseases are more common or even exclusive to a certain race, ethnicity or group of people - Ashkenazi Jews are the most commonly used example here. There is evidence emerging that different antibiotics work better in some ethnicities more than others. Even something as common and widespread as high blood pressure has different treatment protocols depending on your age and race.
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November 27, 2018, 08:21:28 PM
Last edit: November 27, 2018, 10:03:36 PM by xtraelv
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #6

On your point about categorizations not being important I have to disagree, though. I work in healthcare, and categories such as age, sex and race all change what diseases you are at risk of. Some diseases are X-linked recessive - if you don't tell me you were born as a gender different to the one you are now, your diagnosis is going to be near-impossible. Many diseases are more common or even exclusive to a certain race, ethnicity or group of people - Ashkenazi Jews are the most commonly used example here. There is evidence emerging that different antibiotics work better in some ethnicities more than others. Even something as common and widespread as high blood pressure has different treatment protocols depending on your age and race.

I agree with the points that you have made. When it comes to medical classification there is definitely a good use case for categorization.
It could lead to a rapid diagnosis.

However it also has it downsides. Sometimes preconceived ideas or bias can blind. It would be had to judge how much bias has resulted in initially looking for the wrong diagnosis. (i.e. testing for things that are not the cause).

Supporting something for the benefit of the majority can also cause dire consequences for a minority group.

A large portion of the population is Anemic. For this reason a lot of product have been fortified with vitamin C. (To increase iron absorption)
Close to 25% of the population is Anemic with the majority being women.

Hemochromatosis is a (sometimes complex to diagnose) hereditary condition that is frequently not detected until later in life. The added vitamin C to products amplifies the potential serious consequences of the condition (especially if undiagnosed and untreated). About 0.4% of the population is affected by Hemochromatosis with the majority being men.

I cannot go into much detail but a person I represented at a hearing recently was classified based on pre-existing condition not covered by insurance. The conditions were not related to the actual claim. The insurance appointed medical expert was completely blinded by the pre-existing conditions that she did not take the numerous opinions by the treating physicians into account. The hearing did not go well for the insurance but the trauma of the bias and the personal information that had to be disclosed was embarrassing and demeaning.

Statistics can often be deceiving and provide a false impression. For instance - speed kills. Excessive speed has been the cause of accidents.
Question: How is excessive speed assessed ? Obviously when an accident occurs the speed is not suitable for the conditions and I have never heard of two stationary objects hitting each other.

Medical ethics are very complex. Often demographics are used to justify particular screening but it might exclude other demographics that as seen as low risk. Usually to save on screening costs. There are not infinite funds to spend on medical care but in other areas excessive amounts are being spend on keeping humans alive that either have a very low quality of life, prolonging suffering or extremely low chances of survival.
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November 28, 2018, 04:24:29 PM
Merited by Foxpup (6), suchmoon (4), vapourminer (1), xtraelv (1)
 #7

Medical ethics are very complex. Often demographics are used to justify particular screening but it might exclude other demographics that as seen as low risk. Usually to save on screening costs. There are not infinite funds to spend on medical care but in other areas excessive amounts are being spend on keeping humans alive that either have a very low quality of life, prolonging suffering or extremely low chances of survival.

This is true, and I agree with you here. I not infrequently see patients in the ICU who have a near zero chance of survival, and if they did survive, would be permanently disabled or brain damaged so severely that the resulting quality of life would be unacceptable to them or their families. Fortunately, in most of these cases the family agrees with the medical team and the focus moves to palliation and end-of-life care. There are a few cases, however, where the family refuses to accept the prognosis, and we end up providing very costly treatment to keep alive a patient who has no chance of recovery, while we apply to the courts (also very costly) to allow withdrawal of care. The usual cases are young people with either a progressive degenerative disease like Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy or an irrecoverable traumatic brain injury.

Screening isn't just about cost, however. We also need to pay attention to the test's sensitivity and specificity. Unfortunately, no test is 100% - there will always be false positives and false negatives. A test that is sensitive will not miss the disease if it is present, and so has a low rate of false negatives. A test that is specific will not come back positive unless the disease is present, and so has a low rate of false positives.

Let's say we have a test that is 98% specific and 98% sensitive, and we are using that test to screen a population of 1 million people which has a disease prevalence of 2% (some cancers in over 50s, for example). So of those 1 million people, there will be 20,000 with this type of cancer. Our screening test will correctly pick up 98% of those 20,000 people (19,600), and the remaining 2% of people (400) will be labelled as a false negative. Of the 980,000 people that do not have cancer, 98% of them (960,400) will be correctly identified as not having cancer, but crucially 2% of them (19,600) will be labelled as false positives. So we now have 39,200 with a positive test result, and only 50% will actually have the disease, despite our test being "98% accurate".

Now lets take that same test, and apply it to groups that are lower risk (the same cancer in under 30s, for example). The same disease in this younger population might only have a prevalence of 0.01%. If we run those numbers again, again in a population of 1 million people, we have 100 people with the disease, and 98 of them being picked up by the screening test. We also have 999,900 without the disease, but 19,998 of them being identified as false positives. So if you get a positive test result, you actually only have a 0.49% chance of having the disease, despite our test being "98% accurate".

This becomes an issue as there is risk involved as well. For example, if you test positive for the bowel cancer screening test (which is blood showing up in a stool sample), you will then go on to have a colonoscopy. Colonoscopy carries a 0.5% risk of bowel perforation. In our example population of 1 million young people, we would be causing more bowel perforations in people with false positive tests than we would be picking up actual cancers in people with true positive tests.

My point is that tests which are effective in a high-risk category of people can cause more harm than good if applied to a low-risk category of people. Although cost-effectiveness certainly plays a part, there are other factors to consider.
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November 28, 2018, 08:23:50 PM
 #8

The problem with using terms like "male" and "female" is that it leaves people own to their own interpretation of what those terms mean.  I think it should be changed to something less able to be subjective.  Genders should be relabeled to be "XX" or "XY" which I think would be less liable to idiocy.
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November 29, 2018, 07:24:18 AM
Last edit: November 29, 2018, 07:35:22 AM by xtraelv
Merited by paxmao (3)
 #9

The problem with using terms like "male" and "female" is that it leaves people own to their own interpretation of what those terms mean.  I think it should be changed to something less able to be subjective.  Genders should be relabeled to be "XX" or "XY" which I think would be less liable to idiocy.

Hermaphrodites may have both cells with 46 XY chromosomes and cells with 46 XX chromosomes.

Some males with 47,XYY syndrome have an extra Y chromosome in only some of their cells.

XXXY syndrome is a genetic disorder characterized by a sex chromosome aneuploidy, where males have two extra X chromosomes.

About 1 in 20,000 men have no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs.

The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.

Turner syndrome is also called 45,X or XO syndrome and only affects females.  Instead of having the usual two copies of the X. chromosome, they have only one copy.

Source: Wikipedia
You can have two sets of DNA
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November 29, 2018, 09:52:52 AM
Merited by suchmoon (4), Jet Cash (2)
 #10

Genders should be relabeled to be "XX" or "XY" which I think would be less liable to idiocy.
In that case, I'll have to list my gender as "indeterminate" since I've never had a karyotype and have no evidence that I am male aside from having a penis and the ability to grow hair everywhere on my body except the top of my head, and there's at least half a dozen reasons why I might have those traits without having a Y chromosome.
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November 29, 2018, 10:12:59 AM
 #11

In that case, I'll have to list my gender as "indeterminate" since I've never had a karyotype and have no evidence that I am male aside from having a penis and the ability to grow hair everywhere on my body except the top of my head, and there's at least half a dozen reasons why I might have those traits without having a Y chromosome.

Or XY suspect.  Grin
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November 29, 2018, 07:58:08 PM
Merited by xtraelv (1)
 #12

Genders should be relabeled to be "XX" or "XY" which I think would be less liable to idiocy.
In that case, I'll have to list my gender as "indeterminate" since I've never had a karyotype and have no evidence that I am male aside from having a penis and the ability to grow hair everywhere on my body except the top of my head, and there's at least half a dozen reasons why I might have those traits without having a Y chromosome.

I stand corrected. I guess more thought is needed on how to combat idiocy in this regard.
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November 30, 2018, 02:14:54 PM
Last edit: November 30, 2018, 10:20:00 PM by paxmao
 #13

The problem with using terms like "male" and "female" is that it leaves people own to their own interpretation of what those terms mean.  I think it should be changed to something less able to be subjective.  Genders should be relabeled to be "XX" or "XY" which I think would be less liable to idiocy.

I honestly think that we are going to far. Anyone is free to feel any gender they please and engage in mating rituals with all types of beings they want including other humans, fishes, unicelular amoebas or even their cellphones (yes, that´s for you iPhone addict). But there is no need to change the language that much, at least I have a clear picture of what is what (or who is who) and I don´t intend to offend anyone by not changing that.
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December 01, 2018, 02:25:07 AM
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I honestly think that we are going to far. Anyone is free to feel any gender they please and engage in mating rituals with all types of beings they want including other humans, fishes, unicelular amoebas or even their cellphones (yes, that´s for you iPhone addict). But there is no need to change the language that much, at least I have a clear picture of what is what (or who is who) and I don´t intend to offend anyone by not changing that.

Agreed. When it comes to forcing people to use certain terminology it goes too far. That infringes on the rights of others to speak freely. It no longer involves just the persons right to indulge in their views, fetish or fantasy. It is imposing their opinions on other.
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