[It's not real communism] or why socialism can still be an answer

[mrcash02]

Why shouldn't there be a constitution? The constitution just must be writen by citizens as it has been done in Iceland.
And you talk about a big syndicate aiming at their own interests, but that would be only if you manage to find a large enough amount of people who share the same interests.
What you mean here is that majority would rull over minority right?

The constitution may not reflect the wishes of the citizens during a period of time (for an example: We created it today with majority's agreement, but in 30 years, most people don't agree with this anymore), so will the communists citizens accept to keep following it? It's contradictory with the "communist direct democracy" idea...

You're right. The constitution might guarantee certain rights and we can change the idea of majority by saying for example laws can pass only if 60% of the population agrees but eventually, you reach a point where you say "hey, 80% of us agree on this so let's do this". But I don't see any way to have a system where a group manages itself without deciding that majority rules minority. It's teh very base of group interactions. Unless you see something else possible?

Majority rules almost everything. They can't, for an example, come to my house and send me out because it's going to become a factory, state's building or something like this. In a communist (even the perfect one) it could happen, and I wouldn't have who to appeal.

Communists don't respect the individual, because everything that matters for them is the whole collective. If most people want, that is what must be done, even if it involves taking most profits/production, properties from the citizens and forcing them to work where they don't want.

Yes, changes are needed, 5 years is too much to accept quietly, especially if the political said one thing during the campaign and did the opposite or nothing after elected. I just don't think changes should be so extreme...

Well that's understandable cause that would be some crazy changes. I don't see any mild solution but if you do feel free to tell 

Replacing the represetants and pressing them to make their job correctly. If it doesn't work in a country, the problem aren't exclusively the politicians, but the people in general...

I really think people would change their state of mind if they knew they had actual power. Today people don't give a shit because they know politicians are just lying and nothing can be done.
If you tell them "ok now you make the laws and the constitution, no more representants you're going to decide yourself" they will be scared of course, but also happy to have control over their own destiny. And I think they'll really get more and more involved in politics.

I think power isn't for anyone... Everyone changes their state of mind with power, but some for the worse.

Monarchy, democracy, tyranny, oligarchy, communism... Everything could work, depending the people involved on these systems. In the end the problem are the people and not the systems themselves... That is why there are always positive examples about everything involving nordic countries, but when you apply the nordic politics in third world countries there isn't any guarantee they will work too, because the people.

[1714921996]

1714921996

[1714921996]

1714921996

[TECSHARE]

Monarchy, democracy, tyranny, oligarchy, communism... Everything could work, depending the people involved on these systems. In the end the problem are the people and not the systems themselves... That is why there are always positive examples about everything involving nordic countries, but when you apply the nordic politics in third world countries there isn't any guarantee they will work too, because the people.

Any organization can be corrupted, but some are a lot easier to corrupt than others. One of the main benefits of Capitalism is that it factors in human greed and exploits it to benefit the whole in most (but not every) circumstances, much like Bitcoin itself.

[KingScorpio]

Hello world.

Have been away for lon and following HellFish advice I'm starting a selfmod thread. Feel free to say whatever you want as long as it's not trolling.

So why starting this thread? Because there is this sentence I hear and read a lot that always triggers me a bit. Right wing people mockingly saying that you have to be a complete retard to be a socialist and that the argument "it's not real communism" is stupid. This argument is just saying that USSR or whatever "communist" country failure isn't a proof of communism failure because... Well it wasn't real communism.

And this argument is... Perfectly valid though a bit short-sighted.

I dare anyone to give an example of a real communism state in our world, present or past. There are none.

There is this HUGE MISTAKE made by tons of people who believe that communism = no private property = everything belongs to the state. Which is a very brutal and stupid interpretation of communism manifest. Communism doesn't mean everything belongs to the state but everything is owned by the people. In particular for Marxists (which are the most common kind of communists) it's not that there should be no private property but that anything being used in the economy (the means of production) should belong to the workers using them. (Which means very VERY limited private property because depending on interpretation pretty much anything can be considered being part of the economy)

But let's simplify all this by saying that, in communism, the means of production are supposed to belong to the people.

The people.

Not the state, the people. That's where lies the "it's not real communism".

Because what are exactly countries like Venezuela or USSR or Cuba or North Korea? They're countries where state is all powerfull, meaning the leaders are all powerfull. What do you call such countries? Dictatorships. And it doesn't matter if the dictatorship calls itself communist or islamic or democratic or whatever. A dictatorship is just a dictatorship, a country where the people are oppressed by a very small group having the power. It's not communism at all! It's the opposite of communism.


So no it wasn't real communism. But why is it a short-sighted answer? Well because it seems that every time a country adopts communism it falls immediately into a dictatorship. So even if those countries aren't communist, if every country trying to adopt communism falls into dictatorship 2 days later... Well it means that even if there is a slight difference, communism leads to dictatorship.

And that's right. At least that WAS right. Communism means that the people own and control everything equally, but that wasn't possible, what was used was that people were represented by a government THEN this government controls everything (hence the dictatorship).

But maybe we have an alternative solution now. Maybe we can do things differently... What if we didn't use the government to control things? What if we did it ourselves directly? With our technologies we no longer have a use for representative politics. Direct democracy is completely possible.


So I can't say anything for sure of course, but it seems to me that we have new possibility. Applying the new technologies (including blockchains) to create a country where everything is directly controlled by the people, which would be real communism this time.

EDIT: Since TECSHARE and I have don't have the same definition of trolling I removed his posts from the thread but he ahd the good idea to post them on another one. You can find our arguments there https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5076948.0 if you're interested

kapitalism exists also in communism, actually, kapitalists in kommunist societies are richer, more powerful than others, the behave a bit different, but they effectively also dominate the society. kapitalists exist everywhere.

[TECSHARE]

Socialism/Communism can not exist without Capitalism because it is parasitic to it. Once that funding runs out totalitarianism inevitably ensues.

[coins4commies]

and just to clarify, by "totalitarianism" aren't you including "printing money and taxing"?

[Eirecoin]

Socialism can never work, humans by nature are selfish and ambitious and we don't like to divide us by race, wealth, religion and neighborhood. There always gonna be someone with a better job, a better payment, a better talent or gift so we are never going to be equal

[Dig Bicks]

Capitalism is destroying itself, we are at a stage of wealth inequality that hasn't been seen before.


Capitalists have zero regard for the environment.

You can't deny that automation is advancing rapidly and most of the current jobs won't even exist soon, there will need to be some sort of UBI or people will riot and kill the wealthy.