Russian act of war

[bluefirecorp_]

https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/ukraine-defence-sec-says-russias-moves-act-of-war-20181125

"We heard reports on incident and have concluded that it was an act of war by Russian Federation against Ukraine"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

After capturing 3x Ukraine military vessels.

Russian geopolitical expansion must be stopped; they shouldn't be able to seize the Sea of Azov.


Ahaha; even Reuters are reporting on the issue:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-germany/germany-russian-blockade-of-sea-of-azov-is-unacceptable-idUSKCN1NV11V?utm_source=reddit.com

[coins4commies]

These statements aren't worth anything unless you're willing to back them up with war.  Europe, in a way, is speaking on behalf of the US military.  As an American, I'm not willing to go to war over this.  Its none of my concern. We have our own crumbling nation to deal with.  I may not like Trump but I never thought we should be the police of the world anyway.  No. More. Wars.

[bluefirecorp_]

These statements aren't worth anything unless you're willing to back them up with war.  Europe, in a way, is speaking on behalf of the US military.  As an American, I'm not willing to go to war over this.  Its none of my concern. We have our own crumbling nation to deal with.  I may not like Trump but I never thought we should be the police of the world anyway.  No. More. Wars.

The United Nations was formed to solve problems like this without relying on war, but they're failing in the same way the League of Nations failed post WW1.

If you look at Germany pre-WW2, you can see similar geopolitical land grabs that feel eerily similar to Russian's land grabs today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_preceding_World_War_II_in_Europe#German_expansionism

The issue is being proactive rather than reactive; we KNEW this was coming: https://www.stripes.com/news/us/russia-warns-sea-of-azov-off-limits-to-us-nato-ship-drills-1.552511


If we had placed some of our larger destroyers in that sea (assuming they'd even fit through the multiple canals); they'd have issues seizing a US ship.

[ClockworkTrader]

I`d be cautious with making conclusions nowadays. With the amount of fake news and provocations, I wouldn`t be surprised if it was Ukraine`s masterplan.

After all, it looks too suspicious: there is president elections in Ukraine soon, and it`s not allowed to elect the new president during state of defense situation. It could as well be a political move and very skillful usage of the current political situation by Ukraine`s government

[Jet Cash]

The United Nations was formed to solve problems like this without relying on war, but they're failing in the same way the League of Nations failed post WW1.

I thought the United Nations was formed to invade countries to force the removal of elected governments, and to promote the sale of US armaments.

[bluefirecorp_]

I`d be cautious with making conclusions nowadays. With the amount of fake news and provocations, I wouldn`t be surprised if it was Ukraine`s masterplan.

After all, it looks too suspicious: there is president elections in Ukraine soon, and it`s not allowed to elect the new president during state of defense situation. It could as well be a political move and very skillful usage of the current political situation by Ukraine`s government

Uhhh.... how would that remotely be true? It's be collaborated by several different nations. There's actual pictures from the BBC that shows that the boat blockaded actually exists.

In reality, this is Russia trying to spread misinformation regarding the situation by saying "UKRAINE IS AT FAULT FOR OUR ACTS OF AGGRESSION"

[SCheek]

https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/ukraine-defence-sec-says-russias-moves-act-of-war-20181125

"We heard reports on incident and have concluded that it was an act of war by Russian Federation against Ukraine"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

After capturing 3x Ukraine military vessels.

Russian geopolitical expansion must be stopped; they shouldn't be able to seize the Sea of Azov.


Ahaha; even Reuters are reporting on the issue:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-germany/germany-russian-blockade-of-sea-of-azov-is-unacceptable-idUSKCN1NV11V?utm_source=reddit.com

Start arming the Ukrainians, I say!

[bluefirecorp_]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/president-of-ukraine-claims-large-scale-russian-invasion-of-country-being-planned/

Holy shit. WW3 coming soon.

[coins4commies]

These statements aren't worth anything unless you're willing to back them up with war.  Europe, in a way, is speaking on behalf of the US military.  As an American, I'm not willing to go to war over this.  Its none of my concern. We have our own crumbling nation to deal with.  I may not like Trump but I never thought we should be the police of the world anyway.  No. More. Wars.

The United Nations was formed to solve problems like this without relying on war, but they're failing in the same way the League of Nations failed post WW1.

If you look at Germany pre-WW2, you can see similar geopolitical land grabs that feel eerily similar to Russian's land grabs today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_preceding_World_War_II_in_Europe#German_expansionism

The issue is being proactive rather than reactive; we KNEW this was coming: https://www.stripes.com/news/us/russia-warns-sea-of-azov-off-limits-to-us-nato-ship-drills-1.552511


If we had placed some of our larger destroyers in that sea (assuming they'd even fit through the multiple canals); they'd have issues seizing a US ship.

Are you convinced of Russia's end-goal?  I don't see them attacking any NATO member countries and that is where I would draw the red line.  Otherwise, I don't want a war with Russia.  We aren't obligated to protect Ukraine and arming them would only cause more people to die.  We should be doing anything to deescalate the situation but sending destroyers or any physical presence would only further escalate tensions.  

Yes this is a lot like Sudetenland to Germany but in both cases, they will only take what they know they can take, what the world powers will allow them to take without stepping in.  They also will only take places where people will receive their occupation well.  Taking Eastern Ukraine is not going to give Russia confidence that they can overrun NATO or make Polish people want to live under Russian rule.  Putin understands that there will be overwhelming resistance the moment they cross into NATO territory.  Empty threats would blur that red line and potentially lead to a miscalculation on one side.  You have to calculate the cost here.  Is Ukraine's sovereignty worth nuclear war?

[Piggy]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/president-of-ukraine-claims-large-scale-russian-invasion-of-country-being-planned/

Holy shit. WW3 coming soon.

If something like this happen it would be an economic suicide for Russia, plus they will be cut loose from all the international summit and global political decisions.
I see they have a lot to lose from a move like that. Without even considering the fact NATO will probably step up his presence on border countries. Is it really worth?

[byteball]

Military boats violated pre-2014 territorial waters of Russia.
They were warned several dozen times. This can be proven by footage from satellites, and from recordings of the talks.
Sailors surrendered and testified against the Ukrainian organisers of this provocation.
Are you implying that all countries should stop defending their borders?
Well, regarding the situation on border with Mexico, you probably are.

[bluefirecorp_]

Boats violated pre-2014 territorial waters of Russia.
They were warned several dozen times. This can be proven by footage from satellites, and from recordings of the talks.
Sailors surrendered and testified against the Ukrainian organisers of this provocation.
Are you implying that all countries should stop defending their borders?
Well, regarding the situation on border with Mexico, you probably are.

Uhhh; no. There were treaties in place that allowed the boats to be there (bilateral agreements). Ukraine has every right to be in that water. The fact that Russia fired upon MILITARY vessels is an ACT OF WAR.

Just because the Kremlin is feeding you fake news doesn't mean the rest of the world consumes it, silly Russian pawn.

[byteball]

There were treaties in place that allowed the boats to be there (bilateral agreements).

You lie. Pre-2014 territorial waters were violated. Which can be demonstrated from satellites.
(Also all Boeing stuff can be).
Also, there were multiple threats, from US as well, to blow up Kerch Bridge.

Moreso, Ukrainian junta claims to be at war with Russia.
Are you out of your mind to claim that a warring country should be admitted into territorial waters
because of some "treaties" it has long since denounced?
It is officially junta at half of Ukrainian territory (excluding Crimea) from this day. It's an official dictatorship,
voted in by Rada (parliament).

bluefirecorp_, you would have much more luck finding like-minded persons in the so-called Russian section
of this forum, controlled by Ukrainians. But (oh the irony!) you need to know Russian to participate in Ukrainian-held section.
Because all Ukrainian politicians, including President, speak Russian when off-duty.

[bluefirecorp_]

There were treaties in place that allowed the boats to be there (bilateral agreements).

You lie. Pre-2014 territorial waters were violated. Which can be demonstrated from satellites.
(Also all Boeing stuff can be).
Also, there were multiple threats, from US as well, to blow up Kerch Bridge.

Moreso, Ukrainian junta claims to be at war with Russia.
Are you out of your mind to claim that a warring country should be admitted into territorial waters
because of some "treaties" it has long since denounced?
It is officially junta at half of Ukrainian territory (excluding Crimea) from this day. It's an official dictatorship,
voted in by Rada (parliament).

What are you on about?

Agreement between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch.

The Parties, proceeding from the necessity of conservation of the Azov-Kerch defined area of water as integral economic and natural complex, to be used in the interests of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine, have agreed as follows: 1) The sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch are historically internal waters of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine. 2) The sea of Azov must be delimited by the state border in accordance with the Agreement signed by the Parties. 3) Dispute settlement regarding the issues pertaining to the defined area of water of Kerch must be regulated by agreement between the Parties. 4) Mercantile vessels and other state non-commercial vessels flying the flags of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine have free navigation in the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch. 5) Russian-Ukrainian cooperation in the spheres of navigation, fisheries, protection of marine environment, ecological safety and life-saving in the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch must be implemented on the basis of existing international agreements and by conclusion, in respective cases, of the new ones.

The fact that Russia broke this treaty and is feeding you false information regarding the situation highlights the propaganda coming from the Kremlin. Perhaps you should switch your news source from state media to something more independent?

[byteball]

What are you on about?

Agreement between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch.

I am on about Martial Law for 30 days in regions bordering the contested regions.
Effective since 10am today. Limiting human rights. Postponing the presidential and parliamentary elections.
That was the reason to perform this provocation.

[bluefirecorp_]

What are you on about?

Agreement between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch.

I am on about Martial Law for 30 days in regions bordering the contested regions.
Effective since 10am today. Limiting human rights. Postponing the presidential and parliamentary elections.
That was the reason to perform this provocation.

Uhh, pretty sure that's fake news right there. They've implemented martial law, but only along the Russian border and the election dates have not moved.

Just more Russian FUD from the Kremlin. Of course you'd know that if you read my links.

[byteball]

Uhh, pretty sure that's fake news right there. They've implemented martial law, but only along the Russian border and the election dates have not moved.

Why the Martial Law if everything stays the same?
Why not Martial Law in 2014? Or at the height of hostilities?

[mOgliE]

I thought the United Nations was formed to invade countries to force the removal of elected governments, and to promote the sale of US armaments.

Most accurate statements of the United Nations I ever read.
Can you add the IMF in please?

[bluefirecorp_]

Uhh, pretty sure that's fake news right there. They've implemented martial law, but only along the Russian border and the election dates have not moved.

Why the Martial Law if everything stays the same?
Why not Martial Law in 2014? Or at the height of hostilities?

Uhhh; because Ukraine has intelligence that Russia is gathering military forces on their borders. Pretty much the invasion of Crimea was unexpected and rapid; now the Ukraine military is prepared and wants its citizens to be prepared.

Military is on high alert; citizens are on alert. When Russia invades the homeland, they'll be ready.

From what I've read in the media, even the oppositional party supports the martial law declaration.

[byteball]

Military is on high alert; citizens are on alert. When Russia invades the homeland, they'll be ready.

From what I've read in the media, even the oppositional party supports the martial law declaration.

I guess at least 50% will rush to get Russian passports. So they'd better be ready.
Do you understand that 80% of population speaks Russian, or a very close dialect, and perceives junta
as occupants? That they still culturally belong to Soviet culture, raped and distorted and prohibited by junta?
Obviously, Martial Law will help against those dissenters who already capture power plants, which fail to start
the heating season.
Martial Law also reduces prices of all assets, making them really easy to buy up.

As for opposition, did you see the actual debates in Parliament? It was a clear revolt against President,
which ended with some protracted negotiations and he finally didn't get what he wanted.

So called Russian threat exists only in official Ukrainian and Western propaganda.
No sane country in the world believes in it, which you can see from the recent international economical and political activity around Russia.