NPR's Border Fact Check

[coins4commies]

You don't even bother attempting reading comprehension do you? You are either duplicitous or exceptionally ignorant, and your sophist tactics largely make me suspect you are disingenuous and find lying a justifiable means to an end. You aren't even attempting to comprehend my words, you simply project what you already choose to believe upon whatever I say, regardless of its logical validity. I say less people will attempt the journey, you see "GOOD MORE DEAD MEXICANS, LESS TO CROSS!", I was saying a wall is a deterrent to even attempt, making the risk of the journey not a factor.

That point made you then shift the goal post to the dangers of existing in their home nations, as if the USA is the mommy and daddy of the world, and we are responsible for their well being. It has nothing to do with who's fault it is that they are poor, it is simply NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY as a nation. If you privately want to fund immigrants coming here legally with your own money, you go for it. You don't get to mandate the forced collection of funds at gunpoint to fund your narcissism.

If you really believed any of what you just said you would never have bought up any of that racism bullshit. This was nothing but a pathetic, desperate, and shameful attempt to try to smear me by insinuation and association. Just another demonstration how little regard you hold for minorities, you see calling racism as a means to an end of your own, not a means to deter bigotry.

If you knew a damned thing about economics you would know that uncontrolled migration combined with large welfare programs is a GUARANTEED recipe for financial collapse. It is not even a debate, it is a mathematical fact. This is not just my personal quality of life, it is EVERYONE'S here, including yours. Furthermore "quality of life" makes it sound like I will get one less fast food hamburger a month as a sacrifice. No, this is societal collapse, 3rd world dumpster fire quality of life drop. All so you and your narcissistic commie pals can stand around and jerk each other off over how humanitarian and morally superior you are.

I am trying to comprehend what you are saying and am smart enough to be open to the idea that I may just be ignorant.  There is not end to be had here. What could my bitcointalk forum agenda possibly be other than to learn?  

The USA has always claimed to be the mommy and the daddy of the world, I was brought up on that idea.  There is a huge statue in new york harbor supporting that idea.  I'm not saying that is wise or best idea in self interest but its something that has been hardwired in culturally.  People like me are the unintended consequence of that propaganda.  You always talk about funds being collected at gunpoint and that is such a lie.  No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.  You chose to earn money in our system to better your life and taxes are the cost of using that system.  The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.  

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.   Systemic racism in the US immigration system is real. Systemic racism has nothing to do with your intentions and is something that has to be actively undone.  It cannot be ignored and must be brought up whenever even possibly relevant.  Yes, we will always be suspicious that those who insist racism be ignored and left out of the conversation.    

Your simplistic view of economics views immigration in isolation.  You aren't accounting for the fact that immigrants work and pay taxes and their children grow up to make significant contribution to our economy.  More workers allows for a larger economy and a larger economy allows for more welfare spending.  It only works this way if we legitimize their presence though.  They become a massive burden only when people don't allow them to obtain legal status.  No legal status makes it difficult to work which makes it difficult to pay taxes and forces them into a cycle of dependent poverty.  This status quo may very well be what the democrats want but its not what I want.  US population could swell to 350 million and we wouldn't run out of space.  The economic growth would create more opportunities for everyone. 

[Spendulus]

...
I am trying to comprehend what you are saying and am smart enough to be open to the idea that I may just be ignorant.  There is not end to be had here. What could my bitcointalk forum agenda possibly be other than to learn?  ....

Either you are ignorantly parroting Alinksyian views directed towards collapsing American society by overloading social services and government functions, or you are actively intent on it.

Which?

[coins4commies]

ignorantly parroting Alinksyian views directed towards collapsing American society by overloading social services and government functions,

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't  know who alinsky is and looked him up but the description on wikipedia wasn't anything like what you are saying. 

Regardless,  you have it backwards.  Its Trumpism that would actually collapse society.   A country's government functions and social services actually become overloaded when there is high education and no immigration.  The population demographic shifts to an aging population and there aren't enough workers to support it.  This is what is happening in Japan and was happening in much of Europe.  Mass immigration is the only way to maintain age balance.

[TECSHARE]

I am trying to comprehend what you are saying and am smart enough to be open to the idea that I may just be ignorant.  There is not end to be had here. What could my bitcointalk forum agenda possibly be other than to learn?  

The USA has always claimed to be the mommy and the daddy of the world, I was brought up on that idea.  There is a huge statue in new york harbor supporting that idea.  I'm not saying that is wise or best idea in self interest but its something that has been hardwired in culturally.  People like me are the unintended consequence of that propaganda.  You always talk about funds being collected at gunpoint and that is such a lie.  No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.  You chose to earn money in our system to better your life and taxes are the cost of using that system.  The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.  

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.   Systemic racism in the US immigration system is real. Systemic racism has nothing to do with your intentions and is something that has to be actively undone.  It cannot be ignored and must be brought up whenever even possibly relevant.  Yes, we will always be suspicious that those who insist racism be ignored and left out of the conversation.    

Your simplistic view of economics views immigration in isolation.  You aren't accounting for the fact that immigrants work and pay taxes and their children grow up to make significant contribution to our economy.  More workers allows for a larger economy and a larger economy allows for more welfare spending.  It only works this way if we legitimize their presence though.  They become a massive burden only when people don't allow them to obtain legal status.  No legal status makes it difficult to work which makes it difficult to pay taxes and forces them into a cycle of dependent poverty.  This status quo may very well be what the democrats want but its not what I want.  US population could swell to 350 million and we wouldn't run out of space.  The economic growth would create more opportunities for everyone. 

You might be smart enough, but you aren't honest enough to admit it if it ever does even happen. You are never "wrong" you are simply viewing things from a different perspective in your view, therefore there is never an incorrect answer right Captain Postmodern? That is not how reality works.

Your agenda is that you have a pathological need for narcissistic supply, and to have others reaffirm and enable your ideology of collectivized malignant narcissism. Either that or you are on the job, I am not sure which. Maybe both.

TAXES ARE COLLECTED AT GUNPOINT. If you don't pay taxes, men with guns come and either kill you or put you in a cage until you do. This is how the resources for the programs you propose are collected. It is as simple as that.

No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.

WAT?

The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.

Nope. In fact data shows illegal immigrants are a net drain on tax resources. Here you are again purposely trying to confuse illegal immigrants with legal immigrants in order to claim they have some benefit for our nation, and also try to subtly try to entrap me into making generalizations so you can later claim I am against all immigration, or insinuate I am racist.

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.

So guilt by association? That is your argument? Great I am glad we agree the only reason you brought up racism was a pathetic attempt to slander me by guilt by association. The ONLY reason you need to inject racism into this is because you are supporting a LOSING argument and you have nothing to back your premise up with, so you must rely on racism as a crutch to try to elicit emotional response as a substitute for logic.

I see, you think we can have massive immigration and huge entitlement programs and a functional economy, but MY VIEWS of economics are simplistic.

You don't have sources for any of your claims, this is all just garbage Postmodernist mantras that become "true" through repetition through enough dimwits such as yourself in an attempt to appear valid via sheer numbers. You all say it, but none of you can ever back any of it up.

[Spendulus]

ignorantly parroting Alinksyian views directed towards collapsing American society by overloading social services and government functions,

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't  know who alinsky is and looked him up but the description on wikipedia wasn't anything like what you are saying. 

Regardless,  you have it backwards.  Its Trumpism that would actually collapse society.   A country's government functions and social services actually become overloaded when there is high education and no immigration.  The population demographic shifts to an aging population and there aren't enough workers to support it.  This is what is happening in Japan and was happening in much of Europe.  Mass immigration is the only way to maintain age balance.

You have an idea what I am talking about because I have properly defined your behavior and told you what it was. At least, now you do.

The relation of immigration / aging population you mention works under certain controlled conditions. That is not what you propose, you proposed total chaos. And what you get from that is total chaos, duh.

Controlled immigration SUCH AS LEGAL IMMIGRATION CAN AND DOES take such economic theory into account.

[coins4commies]

TAXES ARE COLLECTED AT GUNPOINT. If you don't pay taxes, men with guns come and either kill you or put you in a cage until you do. This is how the resources for the programs you propose are collected. It is as simple as that.

No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.

WAT?

The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.

Nope. In fact data shows illegal immigrants are a net drain on tax resources. Here you are again purposely trying to confuse illegal immigrants with legal immigrants in order to claim they have some benefit for our nation, and also try to subtly try to entrap me into making generalizations so you can later claim I am against all immigration, or insinuate I am racist.

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.

So guilt by association? That is your argument? Great I am glad we agree the only reason you brought up racism was a pathetic attempt to slander me by guilt by association. The ONLY reason you need to inject racism into this is because you are supporting a LOSING argument and you have nothing to back your premise up with, so you must rely on racism as a crutch to try to elicit emotional response as a substitute for logic.

I see, you think we can have massive immigration and huge entitlement programs and a functional economy, but MY VIEWS of economics are simplistic.

You don't have sources for any of your claims, this is all just garbage Postmodernist mantras that become "true" through repetition through enough dimwits such as yourself in an attempt to appear valid via sheer numbers. You all say it, but none of you can ever back any of it up.

No one is forcing you to owe taxes.  Almost half of americans owe no federal income tax.  If you want to use our public property to do business, then you have to pay a fee.  You could always move to a tax haven or burn your passport and go out into international waters.  See how much income you earn without taking advantage of public use.   You conduct business to try and better your life but you don't have to.  They cross borders to try and better their life but they don't have to. Its the same thing except they often literally have guns to their heads and you don't.

I confuse legal with illegal immigrants because I am advocating for making the illegal immigrants legal immigrants.  I don't think there should be illegal immigrants because it forces them into hiding. Immigrants are a benefit to our nation but people being forced into hiding is a benefit to no one.

[Spendulus]

.... I don't think there should be illegal immigrants because it forces them into hiding.....

No they are not hiding.

[TECSHARE]

TAXES ARE COLLECTED AT GUNPOINT. If you don't pay taxes, men with guns come and either kill you or put you in a cage until you do. This is how the resources for the programs you propose are collected. It is as simple as that.

No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.

WAT?

The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.

Nope. In fact data shows illegal immigrants are a net drain on tax resources. Here you are again purposely trying to confuse illegal immigrants with legal immigrants in order to claim they have some benefit for our nation, and also try to subtly try to entrap me into making generalizations so you can later claim I am against all immigration, or insinuate I am racist.

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.

So guilt by association? That is your argument? Great I am glad we agree the only reason you brought up racism was a pathetic attempt to slander me by guilt by association. The ONLY reason you need to inject racism into this is because you are supporting a LOSING argument and you have nothing to back your premise up with, so you must rely on racism as a crutch to try to elicit emotional response as a substitute for logic.

I see, you think we can have massive immigration and huge entitlement programs and a functional economy, but MY VIEWS of economics are simplistic.

You don't have sources for any of your claims, this is all just garbage Postmodernist mantras that become "true" through repetition through enough dimwits such as yourself in an attempt to appear valid via sheer numbers. You all say it, but none of you can ever back any of it up.

No one is forcing you to owe taxes.  Almost half of americans owe no federal income tax.  If you want to use our public property to do business, then you have to pay a fee.  You could always move to a tax haven or burn your passport and go out into international waters.  See how much income you earn without taking advantage of public use.   You conduct business to try and better your life but you don't have to.  They cross borders to try and better their life but they don't have to. Its the same thing except they often literally have guns to their heads and you don't.

I confuse legal with illegal immigrants because I am advocating for making the illegal immigrants legal immigrants.  I don't think there should be illegal immigrants because it forces them into hiding. Immigrants are a benefit to our nation but people being forced into hiding is a benefit to no one.

Again, taxes are collected by force. You can pretend it is a choice but it is not. You feel like you are entitled the the fruits of the labor of others, and some how that is returning the means of production back to the workers?

If you don't like it well you can just get out... that argument sounds familiar.

It is not the same thing. At all. Your skull is full of pudding. Your brain has no substance or form, and your ideology flows like water to fill any space it is poured into. You have no principles, you don't even have reliable definitions for words. Your Postmodernist mind mush has rotted your brain, and now you are attempting to infect others with your mental disease.

How convenient your confusion of legal and illegal immigration allows you to make spurious claims about the contributions that illegal immigrants do not actually make to our economy. I am sure that was just an honest mistake and not a disingenuous attempt at trying to lie to support your argument.

[Spendulus]

...

To any who may have found it unable to watch Trump's short talk, because Youtube search engine does not get you to it, but only to the Democratic response, here is a direct link. However long the link works, who knows. The POTUS speech begins at 20:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Bw3YYj-bA

Expect much more of this sort of blatant censorship in pursuit of ideological and anti-American goals.

[coins4commies]

Again, taxes are collected by force. You can pretend it is a choice but it is not. You feel like you are entitled the the fruits of the labor of others, and some how that is returning the means of production back to the workers?

If you don't like it well you can just get out... that argument sounds familiar.

It is not the same thing. At all. Your skull is full of pudding. Your brain has no substance or form, and your ideology flows like water to fill any space it is poured into. You have no principles, you don't even have reliable definitions for words. Your Postmodernist mind mush has rotted your brain, and now you are attempting to infect others with your mental disease.

How convenient your confusion of legal and illegal immigration allows you to make spurious claims about the contributions that illegal immigrants do not actually make to our economy. I am sure that was just an honest mistake and not a disingenuous attempt at trying to lie to support your argument.

So you think you should just be able to use our public resources for free?  Our roads, security, money, and lands make it easier to do the work you speak of and those things come with a fee.  Tax on earnings is that fee.  If you don't want tax, then live a modest life and you won't owe taxes.    Its not "if you don't like it, leave" its just a rebuttal to you thinking someone is holding a gun to your head making you do it.    This isn't North Korea.  No one will shoot you on your way out.  You have plenty of options that don't require you to owe tax.    You choose to owe taxes because you want to better your life.

I agree with you that illegal immigrants are a problem and that is precisely why I want to legalize most of the types of immigration that is done illegally now.  Then they will actually be legal immigrants.  That is what we are debating this whole time so of course I am going to talk about the benefits of the legal immigration I am trying to expand.  

[TECSHARE]

Again, taxes are collected by force. You can pretend it is a choice but it is not. You feel like you are entitled the the fruits of the labor of others, and some how that is returning the means of production back to the workers?

If you don't like it well you can just get out... that argument sounds familiar.

It is not the same thing. At all. Your skull is full of pudding. Your brain has no substance or form, and your ideology flows like water to fill any space it is poured into. You have no principles, you don't even have reliable definitions for words. Your Postmodernist mind mush has rotted your brain, and now you are attempting to infect others with your mental disease.

How convenient your confusion of legal and illegal immigration allows you to make spurious claims about the contributions that illegal immigrants do not actually make to our economy. I am sure that was just an honest mistake and not a disingenuous attempt at trying to lie to support your argument.

So you think you should just be able to use our public resources for free?  Our roads, security, money, and lands make it easier to do the work you speak of and those things come with a fee.  Tax on earnings is that fee.  If you don't want tax, then live a modest life and you won't owe taxes.    Its not "if you don't like it, leave" its just a rebuttal to you thinking someone is holding a gun to your head making you do it.    This isn't North Korea.  No one will shoot you on your way out.  You have plenty of options that don't require you to owe tax.    You choose to owe taxes because you want to better your life.

I agree with you that illegal immigrants are a problem and that is precisely why I want to legalize most of the types of immigration that is done illegally now.  Then they will actually be legal immigrants.  That is what we are debating this whole time so of course I am going to talk about the benefits of the legal immigration I am trying to expand.  

But who will build the roads?!

This is a stale argument that can be more than addressed with responsible fiscal policy not infested with gigantic entitlement programs. This country didn't even have income tax until WW2, and it was supposed to be a temporary measure. Tariffs and sales taxes would be MORE THAN ENOUGH if the money was managed properly and not just promptly put into a dumpster and set on fire as is the current modus operandi.

Of course once again, this is all just a red herring argument for you to endlessly take this discussion off into 1000 side topics so you can avoid the painful fact that your favored policies are naive, ignorant, destructive for everyone involved, and most importantly unsustainable. Actually if you owe taxes now the IRS can have your passport revoked, so your argument about leaving when you want is not exactly valid either.

Oh I see! So simple! All we have to do is call them some thing else and the problem is solved! THANK YOU CAPTAIN POSTMODERN! You saved the day again by redefining words!

[Spendulus]

....
But who will build the roads?!
....

Micropayments, using square codes, RFID, visual scanners, and crypto payments would conceivably enable every road to be operated and built by commercial companies.

This is an example of an activity that governments are no longer needed for. There are many others.

[TECSHARE]

Here is a talk by Sargon of Akkad, who I believe have a very firm grasp on this situation. He is talking in reference to the UK as well as the US, but his arguments are equally as valid. It is almost like he is speaking to our Postmodernist friends here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycEeDXusv7s

[mOgliE]

Micropayments, using square codes, RFID, visual scanners, and crypto payments would conceivably enable every road to be operated and built by commercial companies.

Give me one example where commercial companies are more efficient than public funded companies.

Cause when I look at USA healthcare and French healthcare, all I see is US healthcare costs 50% more without bein more efficient or fair...

[TECSHARE]

Micropayments, using square codes, RFID, visual scanners, and crypto payments would conceivably enable every road to be operated and built by commercial companies.

Give me one example where commercial companies are more efficient than public funded companies.

Cause when I look at USA healthcare and French healthcare, all I see is US healthcare costs 50% more without bein more efficient or fair...

How about all examples? As it is in the US we still have massive entitlement programs from the government for healthcare, regardless of how inefficient they are, and you ignore completely the governments role and pretend as if private industry is solely responsible. You don't get it. The pinnacle of corruption is having the private industry, then controlling the government to preserve your monopoly over it and make sure no competition arises. The government is nothing but a convenient tool for private industry anyway. Lets stop giving them the pretense of the benevolent government overlords to hide behind.

[mOgliE]

I like how every time you point out a capitalist that private companies aren't more efficient than public companies in such huge areas as healthcare they still say it's because of governments and regulations...

Anyway, private can't be more effective than public as to anything private and public can do, private has to add the profit costs. It's obvious and even a 5 year old could understand this but well...

It's supposed to be balanced by "competition" but you don't need a big brain to understand that competition disappears as soon as market has reached a monopoly point which always happens. You can't keep a tensed and competitive market forever it just isn't sustainable (like the whole capitalist system btw).

[TECSHARE]

I like how every time you point out a capitalist that private companies aren't more efficient than public companies in such huge areas as healthcare they still say it's because of governments and regulations...

Anyway, private can't be more effective than public as to anything private and public can do, private has to add the profit costs. It's obvious and even a 5 year old could understand this but well...

It's supposed to be balanced by "competition" but you don't need a big brain to understand that competition disappears as soon as market has reached a monopoly point which always happens. You can't keep a tensed and competitive market forever it just isn't sustainable (like the whole capitalist system btw).

Oh really? Tell me. What does government produce? Whats that? Nothing? Oh right private industry does 100% of the production. Monopolies are illegal. If the government was doing its job it would be busting them and not supporting them. You are telling me about what is sustainable when you think the government produces when literally all it does is spend, regulate, and consume.

[mOgliE]

Monopolies are illegal. If the government was doing its job it would be busting them and not supporting them.

xD

Again you're the best at making quotes mate.
Cheers.

[TECSHARE]

Monopolies are illegal. If the government was doing its job it would be busting them and not supporting them.

xD

Again you're the best at making quotes mate.
Cheers.

Yes, lets pretend again like it is obvious that you are right and I am wrong, then conveniently walk away without replying. I am sure it has nothing to do with a lack of an argument. No, you are just feeling casual I am sure.

[mOgliE]

Yes, lets pretend again like it is obvious that you are right and I am wrong, then conveniently walk away without replying. I am sure it has nothing to do with a lack of an argument. No, you are just feeling casual I am sure.

Not casual at all.
This is self preservation. You're dangerous for the mental health of anyone with a brain so I don't argue with you. But that doesn't mean I can't pinpoint when you say really ridiculous things.