Walll Street dumping to buy cheap

[Wilhelm]

what surprises me the most is the fact that nothing about any of these nonsenses (bitcoin is dead, etc) are new! we have had the same strategy used multiple times in the past on the same large scale as today to push the price lower and lower so that they can buy at cheaper prices. but people still pay it a lot of attention for some reason!

my theory is that everyone at some point started loving FUD and use it to their own advantage for shorting bitcoin or buying it in the dip which is why we keep on seeing the same bullshit have the same effect over and over again!

shhhhhh *cough* rule #1 *cough*

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[eaglewhite80]

This is basically what they have always been doing all their lives and as long as there will always be people who do not understand the market, and know that whatever we are doing is just to try and benefit from the trend, as in the end it is always who is able to quickly make the first move, the wall street will keep doing this over and over with a hard solid target on the weak hands. Has always been their thing and they are good at it.

[sorrysteve1]

--snip--

Could it not be that TA only holds true because they also follow the same analysis? That's really all TA does, it maps when psychologically the members of the market will act in a certain way.

the whales? sure that's possible. i'm sure a good proportion of investors in general pay attention to moving averages and major support/resistance breaks whether or not they acknowledge they're using TA.

If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

i don't think that's necessarily true. investors react to price with or without TA. for example, when price breaks downward below a previous range, investors feel it in their pocket and get squeezed into selling. this creates a feedback loop---a downtrend---as price declines and more investors incur losses and are therefore pressured to sell.

TA analyzes such phenomena but doesn't cause it.

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

[Wilhelm]

--snip--

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

It's what they call a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you have enough followers that do what you suggest, then you have a high probability it will happen.
You invest ahead of your advice and you can float your winnings and get more people aboard.

[randythered]

I think that there's a level of manipulation but it doesn't run as deep as people think. I'm sure people and companies take negative lines regarding bitcoin in the hope of lowering the price and allowing themselves a better entry point but I don't think that they're dumping coins to push the price down only to buy up more coins after.

That is what the whalecumulators want you plebs to believe. The whalecumulators are the apex predator of the market. They want you to feel safe, and make you think that the markets' boom bust cycles are nothing but another occurence like nature.

Going around calling people plebs isn't exactly the nicest of things. It would be appreciated by me and I'm sure others if you refrained from doing so, this is a friendly space for people to discuss and learn.

Anyway, to the point... Or maybe they want people like you to believe that the market is so heavily manipulated so you'll act accordingly. Or maybe they don't exist.

Irrespective boom and bust cycles are nothing but occurrences, the only thing 'whalecumulators' may do is accentuate those cycles, elongating them and extending the peaks and troughs.

[figmentofmyass]

If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

i don't think that's necessarily true. investors react to price with or without TA. for example, when price breaks downward below a previous range, investors feel it in their pocket and get squeezed into selling. this creates a feedback loop---a downtrend---as price declines and more investors incur losses and are therefore pressured to sell.

TA analyzes such phenomena but doesn't cause it.

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

i agree that's what matters. that's why i stick to TA instead of conspiracy theories.

there is of course no way to be sure since variables can't be isolated in markets. but we can make some logical deductions to know that there are at least forces outside of TA and traders practicing it. for example, many investors don't use TA at all. they buy and sell based on fundamentals or based on no analysis (hype and panic, etc). these people must have an effect on the market. and i know from experience and observation that holding a position deep in profit or loss causes investors to act on fear, greed, capital preservation, etc. traders following TA inevitably affect the market as well, but i just don't think there's evidence of the "self fulfilling prophecy" idea.

[haroldtee]

what surprises me the most is the fact that nothing about any of these nonsenses (bitcoin is dead, etc) are new! we have had the same strategy used multiple times in the past on the same large scale as today to push the price lower and lower so that they can buy at cheaper prices. but people still pay it a lot of attention for some reason!

my theory is that everyone at some point started loving FUD and use it to their own advantage for shorting bitcoin or buying it in the dip which is why we keep on seeing the same bullshit have the same effect over and over again!

Well, that is the thing. The market is still very young and at its embryonic stage, and the more we keep seeing new people popping into the market, we will keep seeing that same bullshit have the same effect over and over again. Most of these new people do not usually take their time to understand what they are getting into, as they just want to get rich pretty fast, and that is always going to be the target of the institutions which will keep making it a rinse and repeat process.

Some will bail out, some will learn from it, the new ones will be the victim and then the cycle keeps on until the market gets more matured in terms of adoption. I guess at some point, we have all been there, except for some of us who got lucky to at least be reasonable enough to buy the previous dip before the last year's bull run.

[sorrysteve1]

--snip--

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

It's what they call a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you have enough followers that do what you suggest, then you have a high probability it will happen.
You invest ahead of your advice and you can float your winnings and get more people aboard.

I am familiar with the term and would agree that it fits my thinking. As I said I guess there is no way to truly know which it is, only to know if it comes true or not.

there is of course no way to be sure since variables can't be isolated in markets. but we can make some logical deductions to know that there are at least forces outside of TA and traders practicing it. for example, many investors don't use TA at all. they buy and sell based on fundamentals or based on no analysis (hype and panic, etc). these people must have an effect on the market. and i know from experience and observation that holding a position deep in profit or loss causes investors to act on fear, greed, capital preservation, etc. traders following TA inevitably affect the market as well, but i just don't think there's evidence of the "self fulfilling prophecy" idea.

Do you not think it could be that these people act in such a way because of the knock-on effects of people following TA? As someone not following TA and relying much more on fundamentals and overall market sentiment - I can't help but realize that most of my thoughts and my actions are in line with TA.

Anyway, I suspect that on this debate we'll continue to go in circles, thank you for the discussion either way, it is always helpful to try and consider things in an alternative way to the one I am most inclined.

[magneto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcgA-hMAozI

Nice vid that explains the obvious but what most newbies don't seem to be realizing: The same people that are saying "bitcoin is dead", "bitcoin is a scam", "bitcoin is a ponzi" and whatnot, are buying when you are sleeping after you panic sell. And this doesn't count all the OTC volume we don't know. The lower the price is the higher OTC volume must be as these big entities keep buying. They KNOW they cannot kill BTC, only become bigger players than the rest, so the plan is obvious: Demoralization to trigger panic selling of everyone, then buy the cheap coins off you.

Exactly. It seems as if institutions are still coming into a market, perhaps at an accelerated pace even, despite this bear market.

This is what people don't understand. Bitcoin's price is seriously cheap right now due to the bearish sentiment within the market and the fact that everyone is panic dumping, that it has become a great buying opportunity.

While it is unclear whether or not actual manipulation of the market is taking place in terms of these same investors spreading negative articles about bitcoin, it is clear that there is institutional demand for bitcoin as an investment vehicle. Even though I wouldn't say that constitutes as actual adoption, it would still be able to push prices up quite a bit in the next bull market.