Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam

[fxsurfer]

There is one simple and quick way to determine that Bitcoin is scam, and that is: market price evaluation. In the case of legitimate market instruments, one can easily evaluate whether they are overpriced or underpriced in the market. However, in the case of Bitcoin this is impossible.

Examples:

If a bond with a face value of 1,000 dollars, a coupon of 5% and maturity in 2 years, is priced at 500 we immediately know it is underpriced. If priced at 2,000, we know it is overpriced. If an egg is priced the same as pizza we immediately know it is overpriced because these items are used for satisfying human needs and we empirically know that the utilization capacity of egg is lower that that of pizza. If a guy was granted a loan in the amount of 1000 units of fiat money and used only his Dacia Logan as collateral, but then he manages to buy a brand-new Bugatti Veyron for that money, we immediately know that one unit of his money was overpriced because the utilization capacity of Dacia Logan is lower than that of Bugatti Veyron. And finally, if the book value of a stock is 50 dollars we know that if it is priced at 10 it is underpriced, if priced at 1,000 it is overpriced.

As we can see, in all these examples we have objective, neutral and price independent factors that set up the level for determining whether something is overpriced or underpriced.

How can we do that for Bitcoin? What objective measurements set up the above mentioned level? How would we know if Bitcoin is underpriced or overpriced? Well, it is impossible to know this. Bitcoin is not a company, so it cannot be evaluated through book value or earnings. It is not a debt asset like bonds or fiat currencies, so it cannot be evaluated through face value or collateral. Bitcoin is not good or service, so it cannot be evaluated through utilization capacity. In short, it is impossible in principle to know whether Bitcoin is overpriced or underpriced. And that simply confirms the fact that there is nothing behind Bitcoin. There is no underlying value for evaluating the investment into Bitcoin.

This can be best seen through the comparison with fiat. Although, at first sight, it seems that fiat currencies have no underlying value, this is not true. Why? Well, because today's dollars or euros are debt based assets, i.e. they are products designed for people who want to consume goods and services today and return them in the future. These people are called borrowers. When the banks grant them loans, new dollars or euros are put into cirtualtion, which are then used  for access to the pool of goods and services that gets filled via economic activity of the general population. But since borrowers have to repay their debt with salaries they received for their economic activity - for their contribution to that pool of goods and services, this reduces their purchasing power, i.e. access to the pool. In this way they return goods and services back to the general population. All this is backed by collateral, and in case of borrowers default, their land, cars, houses and other property will end up in the pool of goods and services for the general population to buy with fiat that borrowers put into circulation. Now, are miners - those who put bitcoin into circulation, and in that way also receive goods and services from the general population, obligated to return goods and services back to the general population? No , they are not.  Is bitcoin backed by land, cars, houses and other property of Bitcoin miners? Obviously it is not. So fiat currencies are debt assets backed by collateral and this is their underlying value. Bitcoin on the other hand has no such value, and it is a scam - fake money/asset, designed to extract goods and services from the general population.


That is why one can invest into Bitcoin only on the basis of guesses, opinions, beliefs, or conjectures about its future value. These are then spread through advertisements and propaganda to attract new investors. And this is exactly how investment scams operate - in the absence of underlying value, all kinds of manipulative tactics are used to attract new investors.

Bitcoin is therefore a classical investment scam. It's just that it's well masked as a market instrument.

[freightjoe]

You are correct

The problem is that many Bitcoin "investors" in here are either too stupid to understand they have been scammed, or are too ashamed to admit it.

Instead, like a sultry 4-year old, they stomp their feet and cry "FUD" and "Buy the dip" and "HODL"

[bkbirge]

What's the objective value of a secure triple ledger system with worldwide adoption?

[timotron]

I don't think Bitcoin is a scam, they used to scam people, yeah, but its not a scam.

Just listen to this guy and get all answers: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJWCJCWOxBYSi5DhCieLOLQ

[HeRetiK]

All of the above are valid concerns but hold true for gold and precious metals as well. Do you regard those as scams too?

[dohh]

All of the above are valid concerns but hold true for gold and precious metals as well. Do you regard those as scams too?

This is where You are very wrong. I wont write down all aspects, that would take too long, but only main differences, what makes BTC a scam, while precious metals are not.

First: no other mining includes precious "deflationary" mechanism, that does nothing but lessens reward for same task exponentially. That is nothing else than pyramid, doesnt matter how You name it. It would be same, if Goldakatoshi somehow set, that after too years gold miners will harvest 2 times less than today, after 4 years 4 times less, then 8, then 16. You see how quickly it grows. So its fraudulent in its core.

Second: Gold can not be forked. There are reserves to mine, or there a not. Simple. Forking, segwit and lightning network are nothing but delay mechanism for winning time for scammers (mostly early whales) to cash their early free coins in. No body know ratio of produced coins and those which are cashed in permanently, because of very low transfer fees, whales can trade coins between their own wallets and give impression of any "market price" which they can find idiots at.

[franky1]

How can we do that for Bitcoin?

mining cost equilibrium is the bottom line value

its its cheaper to mine then buy people mine if its cheaper to buy than mine people buy.

so look for the most effiecient mining cost and you learn the bottom line mining cost which miners wont sell below
you soon learn the number of times the price went below bottomline mining costs ovr many years is negligable because people are not fooilish

[HeRetiK]

This is where You are very wrong. I wont write down all aspects, that would take too long, but only main differences, what makes BTC a scam, while precious metals are not.

That's a cop-out answer.

First: no other mining includes precious "deflationary" mechanism, that does nothing but lessens reward for same task exponentially. [...]

Second: Gold can not be forked. There are reserves to mine, or there a not. Simple. [...]

Goldbars can be faked:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tungsten-filled-gold-bars-found-in-new-york-2012-9?IR=T
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801
https://globalnews.ca/news/3169363/10k-in-fake-gold-bars-uncovered-during-edmonton-police-investigation/

...and those goldbars are as "gold" as Bitcoin forks are "Bitcoin".

That being said, these 2 arguments contradict one another. The first statement criticizes Bitcoin for being deflationary while the second statement critizes Bitcoin for supposedly not being deflationary. (while also arguing in the first statement that precious metals are not deflationary and then arguing in the second statement that precious metals are deflationary).

So what's your argument? Please clarify.

[dohh]

This is where You are very wrong. I wont write down all aspects, that would take too long, but only main differences, what makes BTC a scam, while precious metals are not.

That's a cop-out answer.

First: no other mining includes precious "deflationary" mechanism, that does nothing but lessens reward for same task exponentially. [...]

Second: Gold can not be forked. There are reserves to mine, or there a not. Simple. [...]

Goldbars can be faked:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tungsten-filled-gold-bars-found-in-new-york-2012-9?IR=T
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801
https://globalnews.ca/news/3169363/10k-in-fake-gold-bars-uncovered-during-edmonton-police-investigation/

...and those goldbars are as "gold" as Bitcoin forks are "Bitcoin".

That being said, these 2 arguments contradict one another. The first statement criticizes Bitcoin for being deflationary while the second statement critizes Bitcoin for supposedly not being deflationary. (while also arguing in the first statement that precious metals are not deflationary and then arguing in the second statement that precious metals are deflationary).

So what's your argument? Please clarify.

No, its not cop-out, its straightforward and a bit cut as short as possible. I have explained here the same thing over and over again many many times, before current fall began.

Goldbars can not be faked against any serious security check and can be sold to total morons only. And my arguments dont contradict, because You refuse to read them correctly. I wrote "deflatiory" because this is an excuse of halvening. Its nothing more, than a building block of pyramid, instead of hierarchical levels time of mining matters in this scheme.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply

Second chart is perfect for explanation. Its a scheme and You understand it, if You have any part in Your brain, that does math.

[fxsurfer]

All of the above are valid concerns but hold true for gold and precious metals as well. Do you regard those as scams too?

Millions upon millions of men and women use gold daily to adorn their bodies. We all use electronics that have trace amounts of gold in them. Gold is used in dentistry, medicine, aerospace, and elsewhere. More than two-thirds of newly produced gold is utilized this way. Meaning, gold has utilization capacity and we can use gold to compare it with other goods or services. In that way we can determine whether gold is overpriced or underpriced. For example, we empirically know that a gram of gold has lower utilization capacity than a car, and higher utilization capacity than an egg. So if it is priced above a car, we would immediately know it is overpriced. If it is priced below an egg, we would immediately know it is underpriced. In short, things with utilization capacity are not scams.

[fxsurfer]

How can we do that for Bitcoin?

mining cost equilibrium is the bottom line value

its its cheaper to mine then buy people mine if its cheaper to buy than mine people buy.

so look for the most effiecient mining cost and you learn the bottom line mining cost which miners wont sell below
you soon learn the number of times the price went below bottomline mining costs ovr many years is negligable because people are not fooilish

But when one buys Bitcoin, one is not buying a specific amount of kwh of energy. If instead of Bitcoin, an egg would be a reward for generating a new block, your argument would sound like this: "mining cost equilibrium is the bottom line value of the egg". And this is obviously foolish.

[Caeser2001]

All of the above are valid concerns but hold true for gold and precious metals as well. Do you regard those as scams too?

This is where You are very wrong. I wont write down all aspects, that would take too long, but only main differences, what makes BTC a scam, while precious metals are not.

First: no other mining includes precious "deflationary" mechanism, that does nothing but lessens reward for same task exponentially. That is nothing else than pyramid, doesnt matter how You name it. It would be same, if Goldakatoshi somehow set, that after too years gold miners will harvest 2 times less than today, after 4 years 4 times less, then 8, then 16. You see how quickly it grows. So its fraudulent in its core.

Second: Gold can not be forked. There are reserves to mine, or there a not. Simple. Forking, segwit and lightning network are nothing but delay mechanism for winning time for scammers (mostly early whales) to cash their early free coins in. No body know ratio of produced coins and those which are cashed in permanently, because of very low transfer fees, whales can trade coins between their own wallets and give impression of any "market price" which they can find idiots at.

Peter Schiff is that you?

[HeRetiK]

Goldbars can not be faked against any serious security check and can be sold to total morons only.

Same is true forks, so what's your point?

And my arguments dont contradict, because You refuse to read them correctly. [...]

Hence my request for clarification.

Let me rephrase your statements the way I understood them:

First: no other mining includes precious "deflationary" mechanism, that does nothing but lessens reward for same task exponentially. That is nothing else than pyramid, doesnt matter how You name it. It would be same, if Goldakatoshi somehow set, that after too years gold miners will harvest 2 times less than today, after 4 years 4 times less, then 8, then 16. You see how quickly it grows. So its fraudulent in its core.

1. Bitcoin's supply is limited, which is bad. The supply of precious metals is not limited, which is good.

Second: Gold can not be forked. There are reserves to mine, or there a not. Simple. Forking, segwit and lightning network are nothing but delay mechanism for winning time for scammers (mostly early whales) to cash their early free coins in. No body know ratio of produced coins and those which are cashed in permanently, because of very low transfer fees, whales can trade coins between their own wallets and give impression of any "market price" which they can find idiots at.

2. Bitcoin's supply is not limited, which is bad. The supply of precious metals is limited, which is good.

Broken down like that, those statements are contradictory. Kindly point out the nuances that I missed.

Millions upon millions of men and women use gold daily to adorn their bodies. We all use electronics that have trace amounts of gold in them. Gold is used in dentistry, medicine, aerospace, and elsewhere. More than two-thirds of newly produced gold is utilized this way. Meaning, gold has utilization capacity and we can use gold to compare it with other goods or services. In that way we can determine whether gold is overpriced or underpriced. For example, we empirically know that a gram of gold has lower utilization capacity than a car, and higher utilization capacity than an egg. So if it is priced above a car, we would immediately know it is overpriced. If it is priced below an egg, we would immediately know it is underpriced. In short, things with utilization capacity are not scams.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have utility as well though. Monetary transactions, as enabled by Bitcoin, have utility, otherwise we would have neither banks nor credit card companies nor remittance services.

On the other side if you look at gold purely from a utility perspective, we are looking at a clearly over-valued asset. If industrial (and cosmetic) utility were the only determining factors, gold would (1) be less over-priced in comparison to other metals that see comparable practical use and (2) not run counter-cyclical to economic growth (unlike platinum, for example).

[fxsurfer]

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have utility as well though. Monetary transactions, as enabled by Bitcoin, have utility, otherwise we would have neither banks nor credit card companies nor remittance services.

On the other side if you look at gold purely from a utility perspective, we are looking at a clearly over-valued asset. If industrial (and cosmetic) utility were the only determining factors, gold would (1) be less over-priced in comparison to other metals that see comparable practical use and (2) not run counter-cyclical to economic growth (unlike platinum, for example).

Millions upon millions of men and women use gold daily to adorn their bodies. We all use electronics that have trace amounts of gold in them. Gold is used in dentistry, medicine, aerospace, and elsewhere. More than two-thirds of newly produced gold is utilized this way. Meaning, gold has utilization capacity and we can use gold to compare it with other goods or services. In that way we can determine whether gold is overpriced or underpriced. For example, we empirically know that a gram of gold has lower utilization capacity than a car, and higher utilization capacity than an egg. So if it is priced above a car, we would immediately know it is overpriced. If it is priced below an egg, we would immediately know it is underpriced. In short, things with utilization capacity are not scams.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have utility as well though. Monetary transactions, as enabled by Bitcoin, have utility, otherwise we would have neither banks nor credit card companies nor remittance services.

On the other side if you look at gold purely from a utility perspective, we are looking at a clearly over-valued asset. If industrial (and cosmetic) utility were the only determining factors, gold would (1) be less over-priced in comparison to other metals that see comparable practical use and (2) not run counter-cyclical to economic growth (unlike platinum, for example).

Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry which has no utility. Egg and gold have utility because humans can consume them for fulfilling their needs. With spreadsheet entry, no human needs can be fulfilled.

[bkbirge]

Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry which has no utility. Egg and gold have utility because humans can consume them for fulfilling their needs. With spreadsheet entry, no human needs can be fulfilled.

That spreadsheet entry is extremely important, I think you are missing the value there.
https://hackernoon.com/why-everyone-missed-the-most-important-invention-in-the-last-500-years-c90b0151c169
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Triple-Ledger-Accounting

[Marbelli]

everything is very simple. if bitcoin is undervalued, then it rises in price; if overestimated, it drops accordingly in price.

[HeRetiK]

Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin.

The internet alone, by itself, does not enable monetary transactions.

What do you think pays for the mining infrastructure?

[fxsurfer]

Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry which has no utility. Egg and gold have utility because humans can consume them for fulfilling their needs. With spreadsheet entry, no human needs can be fulfilled.

That spreadsheet entry is extremely important, I think you are missing the value there.
https://hackernoon.com/why-everyone-missed-the-most-important-invention-in-the-last-500-years-c90b0151c169
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Triple-Ledger-Accounting

Can you please answer one simple question: how can you utilize bitcoin, or in other words, what can you do with Bitcoin besides transfer it to another person? When you answer it you will grasp the full stupidity of links you provided.

[fxsurfer]

Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin.

The internet alone, by itself, does not enable monetary transactions.

What do you think pays for the mining infrastructure?

Transaction is an instance of buying or selling something. Of course, the internet alone does not enable the buying or selling of something, but what that has to do with the topic at hand?

[ict]

In my opinion. if bitcoin is a fraud then the financial authorities in each country must ban and ban this currency. however, investors do not feel cheated and the financial authorities in each country also do not prohibit the use of crypto. Crypto prices are largely determined by supply and demand so we cannot control or determine crypto prices.