Real "Miners" shutdown the Mine, Unless they can make a profit

[btc-room101]

First of all there is NO MINABLE coin now, as no mining is profitable, all mining is now > than cost of electricity, so you want to mine and lose money? More power to  you, this is an idiot game, a MINE doesn't mine GOLD unless there is a profit to be made.

So mining is no longer 'mining' now its just 'wasting electricity, and losing money'

...

Something is seriously wrong with the term 'MINING', it used to be you could Mine, say bitcoin, and turn a profit, .e.g. the price of bitcoin was much greater than the cost to mine, say last year, you burnt 20 barrels of oil, to fetch 50 barrels worth of oil value in bitcoin

Now today you 'mine' with an S-9 bitmain miner and you lose more than $2/day,

Miner's don't run mines, unless the price of GOLD is much higher than the cost of mining, say now at $1200, I understand today's cost to mine is about $900, preferably miners want at least 2X ROI to cover their costs, get a profit, and pay their investors off.

You can no longer talk about crypto mining as 'mining', because crypto is going to ZERO, and there is no rational reason to generate random numbers, if you only lose money.

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[franky1]

most gold miners dont make profit.
if everyone was guaranteed mining profit, everyone would do it.

imagine a party
those going to a party all chip in to pay for a 12.5inch pizza to be delivered every ~10 minutes if there were 50 people fighting for it. but it was not enough to feed everyone. people leave the party saying "F this im not spending X labour work to provide the party with my money, just to get such a thin slice"

and now there are 20people at the party. so then there is bigger slices of the pizza to go around without having to increase the size of the pizza.

if bitcoin is still not profitable enough for hungry miners to have the party pizza. then they wont go to the party. instead they realise the price is so low they can just buy their own slice of pizza

thus pushing up the market price of pizza because there is now more demand for pizza
and there is less people at parties demanding fat slices because they are getting fat slices so getting well fed.

there is a dynamic market/mining equilibrium

people love pizza and will always find a way to get a cheap slice. if its not cheap to get a slice at a party. they will buy it.

smart people continue going to parties while also separately buying their own slice direct from the market.
thus sustain the support for pizza to be at a certain value
dump people give up going to parties and just cry in their basements that its too expensive to go to parties. but also then scream out about it. but not realise they can for less money just buy pizza direct from the market

if you are the one sat in your basement without any pizza just crying its too expensive to go to parties to get pizza. then just buy some while its cheap

because very soon the dynamics will flip and the market price of pizza will go up when other people realise they can just buy it direct off the market for less than going to parties.

[Zin-Zang]

Insane ever growing input cost is one of the Major Flaws of Proof of Work Design.

Only Proof of Stake Networks can continue running without fear of insane input costs.

Proof of Stake network runs at the same input cost whether the coin is worth 1 penny or worth $100.
Energy Efficiency Matters.  

PoW networks input costs rise and more miners/losers drive up the cost of doing business and the ever decreasing rewards guarantee less coins at each halving.
A Custom Design for Suckers to join , a rigged game they are guaranteed to lose.

[yanetriwidia]

Insane ever growing input cost is one of the Major Flaws of Proof of Work Design.

Only Proof of Stake Networks can continue running without fear of insane input costs.

Proof of Stake network runs at the same input cost whether the coin is worth 1 penny or worth $100.
Energy Efficiency Matters.    

PoW networks input costs rise and more miners/losers drive up the cost of doing business and the ever decreasing rewards guarantee less coins at each halving.

yeahhh i think so, masternode or POS was the best choices now
my whole friends now stop to mine bitcoin and took a rest until bull run , i dont know when bitcoin become dip
so miner still waiting for market recovery

[Kakmakr]

Well, this is why Satoshi developed the system to get rid of the miners that cannot mine profitably and then once they left, the protocol adjust the difficulty to make mining easier and cheaper for them to return.

Bitcoin was not just developed based on Gold, but also on the same principles that are applied in nature. The strongest will survive and the weak will be eaten. 

The world is not fair and neither are Bitcoin mining. 

[squatter]

First of all there is NO MINABLE coin now, as no mining is profitable, all mining is now > than cost of electricity, so you want to mine and lose money? More power to  you, this is an idiot game, a MINE doesn't mine GOLD unless there is a profit to be made.

So mining is no longer 'mining' now its just 'wasting electricity, and losing money'

Even if price keeps dropping, that shouldn't hold true forever. Bitcoin and virtually all POW-based cryptocurrencies have a difficulty adjustment algorithm that makes it easier (more profitable) to mine as hash rate drops.

After the recent crash, Bitcoin's difficulty dropped 22.52% to account for decreasing profitability. In 10 days or so, it will drop some more -- currently 6.52% and counting.

That's the other thing. If it's so unprofitable to mine (or miners are unwilling to make additional investments) then why didn't hash rate plummet? It's just slowly going down, following price.

[Red-Apple]

it is like saying this real restaurant will stop cooking food if they stop getting customers who order food!

there is no real or fake miner. there are only miners. some have better luck by being in a place that has lower electricity cost and sometimes even better climate so that they don't need to spend much money on cooling. any of them will stop mining if they stop making profit. but thanks to  the way bitcoin is designed (the difficulty) that will never happen.

[franky1]

it is like saying this real restaurant will stop cooking food if they stop getting customers who order food!

there is no real or fake miner. there are only miners. some have better luck by being in a place that has lower electricity cost and sometimes even better climate so that they don't need to spend much money on cooling. any of them will stop mining if they stop making profit. but thanks to  the way bitcoin is designed (the difficulty) that will never happen.

its actually more about hobby miners mining in their house.
they cant just buy more rigs to stay competitive. as the electric usage goes up. as ther is a physical amount of room issue and the house has a limit on power input due to capacitors and fuses and other residential wiring/fusebox limits.

home hobbiests drop off first. leaving the real serious miners (farms) with a bigger slice of the pie/pizza because a few people no longer come to the party

[nutildah]

Nobody brought up the fact that there is no set cost of mining.

While mining is concentrated in certain areas of the world, for sure, electricity costs vary dependently from country to country, state to state, county to county.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/the-cheapest-and-most-expensive-countries-to-mine-bitcoin.html

This guy posts nothing but troll, doom-and-gloom drudgery anyway.

[franky1]

Nobody brought up the fact that there is no set cost of mining.

While mining is concentrated in certain areas of the world, for sure, electricity costs vary dependently from country to country, state to state, county to county.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/the-cheapest-and-most-expensive-countries-to-mine-bitcoin.html

This guy posts nothing but troll, doom-and-gloom drudgery anyway.

there is no set cost. there is a range. however if you go by the minimum cost and use that as the bottomline where everyone is sat above thus everyone would refuse to sell for less than cost. that bottomline becomes very apparent

EG if you have 5 houses. 3 houses cost $350k another cost $400k and another cost $500k
you can agree that all 5 house owners will not sell for less than $350k because everyone is above $350k

so the market value of the street becomes $350k+

[Wingo]

The author does not have enough knowledge about the market. Cryptocurrencies have a particular price because there are buyers and sellers that agrees to that specific price, just like in stock market and any other asset market, the price is determined by the people. The price can be zero if all will agree that the price is zero, which will never happen to Bitcoin.

And the way the author introduced blockchain does not make sense, Bitcoin's value is dependent on the popularity of blockchain because the market is emotion driven, once the people saw that there is a great demand on the application of blockchain in different industries and of course, cryptocurrencies, then there will be an increase in the price of cryptocurrencies especially Bitcoin.

[franky1]

The author does not have enough knowledge about the market. Cryptocurrencies have a particular price because there are buyers and sellers that agrees to that specific price, just like in stock market and any other asset market, the price is determined by the people. The price can be zero if all will agree that the price is zero, which will never happen to Bitcoin.

And the way the author introduced blockchain does not make sense, Bitcoin's value is dependent on the popularity of blockchain because the market is emotion driven, once the people saw that there is a great demand on the application of blockchain in different industries and of course, cryptocurrencies, then there will be an increase in the price of cryptocurrencies especially Bitcoin.

everyone agrees that the author of the topic doesnt know much.
but what you are talking about is just the top layer. the price.
you think its only supply and demand. which is speculative. but you forget the underlying waterline below speculation. the cost of acquisition.

imagine it like anything. fruit, veg, phones houses.
think about the supplier costs as the underlying value. and then ontop of that is the speculative part.. the margin/profit
people wont sell a coin down to zero as it cost them way more than zero.

if you want to argue that people can. then ask yourself why isnt veg, phones, houses at zero
building companies wont sell a house for zero, even if there is no demand. they simply leave the 'for sale' sign up
the only time the market SUSTAINABLY goes down is if the costs go down.

right now at 32exahash (lowest mining cost=104 multiple)
32*104=3328

no miner will sell their coins earned recently for less than this
and any miner with higher costs. who were mining coin for keeps. will just buy coin instead of mine it as its cheaper to buy than mine. thus they help sustain the support.

[fenican]

Most "real" Bitcoin miners have access to free or dirt cheap electricity. Their only cost to keep operating is maintaining the hardware they have bought and paying the lease on the space where it resides, if any. They are incentivized to NEVER shut down because they need to recoup their capital investment in the hardware.

[franky1]

Most "real" Bitcoin miners have access to free or dirt cheap electricity. Their only cost to keep operating is maintaining the hardware they have bought and paying the lease on the space where it resides, if any. They are incentivized to NEVER shut down because they need to recoup their capital investment in the hardware.

the big farms dont get 'free' electric. but they do contract a good deal on electric sometimes a year in advance with a known increment.
by the time you calculate lease and labour it averages as a price per asic per hour... it works out to about 5cents per kwh
(3cent without lease and labour)

so do math on 5cent electric and hardware cost divided by a year replacement period. and youll get a good result

[gesdan]

Yes, right now mining bitcoin is not good enough, because Cryptocurrency mining does not give us the profit at all. the electricity cost is higher than the mining earning, so right now there are many miners that quit mining and sell their rig

[bettercrypto]

The current situation of the market plus the whole year of downward trend had caused a lot to cryptocurrency mining industry. A huge number of miners had already left mining and consider it as a losing ventures. This leaves the bigtime miners dominating the field. Some would suggest that instead of mining, better to invest in buying coins. This is advantageous especially now that coins are sold at low prices.

[veleten]

this is why there is such thing as difficulty, miners that cannot make profit shutdown
unless they believe the price grows one day and mine with one-two units for a loss for now
other miners, the more efficient ones, with the lower energy costs, enjoy lower difficulty
in theory this should result in the price growth and balancing the system out
in reality this could lead to more centralisation, when the majority of mining facilities are concentrated in a few countries with low energy cost

[pixie85]

Now today you 'mine' with an S-9 bitmain miner and you lose more than $2/day,

Who said you have to sell it all today? Today you mine at a loss but Bitcoin and all cryptocurrencies are well below their average price. If something loses 90% of its value in one year it's referred to as oversold or sold in panic, which means the price doesn't represent its real value. What it represents is the current market sentiment.
Mining may be profitable if you have enough money to keep the process going until the market sentiment changes.

[btc-room101]

Now today you 'mine' with an S-9 bitmain miner and you lose more than $2/day,

Who said you have to sell it all today? Today you mine at a loss but Bitcoin and all cryptocurrencies are well below their average price. If something loses 90% of its value in one year it's referred to as oversold or sold in panic, which means the price doesn't represent its real value. What it represents is the current market sentiment.
Mining may be profitable if you have enough money to keep the process going until the market sentiment changes.

Mining, REAL MINING, looks at mining for gold, selling that gold to pay the payroll and equipment costs, and gov taxes, nobody who mines keeps the gold, its quickly sold. If the current price of gold doesn't cover cost you don't mine.

This is why calling BTC hamster running 'mining' is just plain dumb, because here miners are told to HODL, and in real world, miners sell the shit as quick as they can, so they can keep the lights on in the tunnels so they can keep mining.

In BTC world everybody is RICH moron, and electricity & hw are free, ... and you HODL, this is virtual bullshit, but idiots refuse to deal with reality.

[Vindesael]

i agree with you. but i think they will have the other way