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Author Topic: Should core bitcoin developers freeze stolen Mt.Gox bitcoins?  (Read 6116 times)
zylstra (OP)
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March 10, 2014, 06:18:59 AM
 #1

Before I write a full argument for why the core developers should consider asking the mining community to freeze Mt. Gox’s stolen BTC (the coins mentioned here, for example, http://www.coindesk.com/gox-money-moving-through-block-chain/ ), I would like to ask your opinion.  What is it?  Yes, you.
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March 10, 2014, 06:29:46 AM
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No, the idea of the dev team becoming the police of bitcoin is awful.  If they were to do it in this instance, where would they draw the line?
V4Vendettas
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March 10, 2014, 06:37:49 AM
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I lost 95% of my wealth in this goxxing and I still say NO

at least I got my health still tho right ..sniff Cry

I will say fuck Blackhats and fuck mark and if bitcoins going to reach mass adoption its going to require something to stop low tec users from living in fear and getting screw every time they even think about the internet. That or it will be a bloody road we go down. Hey just look back at the road already...yea plenty of bitcoiners dead along the wayside.

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March 10, 2014, 06:38:58 AM
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That would be against the model of bitcoin..! one of its key feature that is no regulation and decentralized currency, how they will justify their actions?

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March 10, 2014, 06:41:09 AM
 #5

No!
Thread no.47 on this subject gets the same answer as the others: blacklisting bitcoins will destroy the value of the currency.

zylstra (OP)
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March 10, 2014, 08:30:32 AM
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No, the idea of the dev team becoming the police of bitcoin is awful.  If they were to do it in this instance, where would they draw the line?
Let's pick a line that is somewhat arbitrary but be guided by praticality.  So for arguments sake let's start at 1% of existing bitcoins.

I lost 95% of my wealth in this goxxing and I still say NO
Why no?

That would be against the model of bitcoin..! one of its key feature that is no regulation and decentralized currency, how they will justify their actions?
That's one of the big misconceptions I hear over and over again on this board, that bitcoin means no regulation.  Regulation and decentralization are two different concepts.  Bitcoin's strength is its decentralization, not its lawlessness.

Where is it stated that the model of bitcoin is no regulation?  Should not the model include agreement of its users?  A currency is only as strong as the trust in it's controllers (miners in this case) (and its utilitarian characteristics).  No regulation doesn't mean letting potentially convicted felons spend the money they stole, does it?

Law is one of the foundations of civilization.  If bitcoin is anarchy then I'll pass.  If bitcoin is anarchy then another more lawful coin will overtake it because the anarchists are in the minority.  (Not that minorities are wrong and that they can't have their own coin; I just didn't know that bitcoin was that coin.)

No!
Thread no.47 on this subject gets the same answer as the others: blacklisting bitcoins will destroy the value of the currency.
Freezing is not the same as blacklisting.  Why not let the community vote?  The developers and miners will release a statement that they will freeze the stolen bitcoins.  If the value drops then they will decide against that action.  If it rises they will continue.

Post a link or two of the better threads on this subject.  Thanks.
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March 10, 2014, 08:35:10 AM
 #7

No, why should the developers have an obligation to the people who make mistakes and lose their money on their own terms. Not to mention, it completely breaks the system by giving control to the devs as to the wealth of everyone else and would all-in-all result in the death of Bitcoin. I'm sorry if you lost anything, but that's life; you cannot expect someone else to fix your own mistakes.
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March 10, 2014, 08:35:48 AM
 #8

no, but they can help with getting justice, preventing this from happening again, and tracking the funds.

BTC: 1ESZr887vTZqYtDuwwspn1jBaoRU9jMcv1
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March 10, 2014, 08:42:06 AM
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No, why should the developers have an obligation to the people who make mistakes and lose their money on their own terms. Not to mention, it completely breaks the system by giving control to the devs as to the wealth of everyone else and would all-in-all result in the death of Bitcoin. I'm sorry if you lost anything, but that's life; you cannot expect someone else to fix your own mistakes.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post and while its painful as hell to say it yes I played a large part in the loss of my coins and I do not expect someone else to fix my mistake.

I do however expect law enforcement to at least pretend they give a shit since I pay my taxs. If the stock market got robbed they would be crawling all over the place well my little exchange just got robbed for 0.5 bil ow.. what was that?... ah I see btc are not real sorry to bother you police officer I'll let you get back to catching people braking the speed limit on this deserted road.

Until there is fear of punishment these exchanges can just rake in the cash until something goes wrong then stroll off into the sunset.


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March 10, 2014, 08:45:16 AM
 #10

no, but they can help with getting justice, preventing this from happening again, and tracking the funds.

It's OK when the developers provide help/tools to track the blockchain. It's not OK to change the protocol.
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March 10, 2014, 08:47:52 AM
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No, the idea of the dev team becoming the police of bitcoin is awful.  If they were to do it in this instance, where would they draw the line?
Let's pick a line that is somewhat arbitrary but be guided by praticality.  So for arguments sake let's start at 1% of existing bitcoins.


So they implement that.  Criminals start to only steal 0.99% as they know they can get away with that.  So it now changes or we just accept it? 
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March 10, 2014, 08:49:24 AM
 #12

No.

If it was even possible (it isn't: you'll never get all miners to comply, it only takes one dissenter to push a transaction through), freezing funds would destroy everything that Bitcoin stands for.

And so would any dev (or bitcoin foundation) acting as 'government'. They cannot make decisions like this. Even if users went along instead of laughing in their face, that would be politically very dangerous and radiate that they are in control of the network (and thus be open to other demands and threats and bribes...).

Cryptocurrencies need to be fungible to be useful. Progress should be toward making them more fungible, not less.

I'm very sorry for MtGox victims, but we cannot abandon our principles every time that disaster strikes.

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zylstra (OP)
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March 10, 2014, 08:50:06 AM
 #13

No, why should the developers have an obligation to the people who make mistakes and lose their money on their own terms. Not to mention, it completely breaks the system by giving control to the devs as to the wealth of everyone else and would all-in-all result in the death of Bitcoin. I'm sorry if you lost anything, but that's life; you cannot expect someone else to fix your own mistakes.
Why should the developers develop?  Answer:  Because they love the concept of Bitcoin, want Bitcoin to grow, and enjoy the respect of their peers.  (And for my question only, they love coding).

It does not give control to the developers.  The control is in the hands of the miners.  It was and always will be.  (If you exclude the thief hackers.  Wink  )

Thank you for your concern, but this isn't about me.
zylstra (OP)
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March 10, 2014, 08:53:42 AM
 #14

So they implement that.  Criminals start to only steal 0.99% as they know they can get away with that.  So it now changes or we just accept it? 
One answer could be vote.
V4Vendettas
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March 10, 2014, 08:53:44 AM
 #15

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin

As a Brit it irks me I had to post an American quote  Wink but yea what this dude said.

If the bitcoin foundation or any organisation was able to do as the OP said I would drop Bitcoin in a second.

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March 10, 2014, 08:57:15 AM
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This will simply destroy its regulation, decentralization and value. SO, NO
V4Vendettas
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March 10, 2014, 08:57:47 AM
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So they implement that.  Criminals start to only steal 0.99% as they know they can get away with that.  So it now changes or we just accept it?  
One answer could be vote.


Yea because voting in most democratic countries has worked out real well for the common man's personal finances.

Edit: Not bashing Democracy.

zylstra (OP)
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March 10, 2014, 09:02:32 AM
 #18

I'm very sorry for MtGox victims, but we cannot abandon our principles every time that disaster strikes.
I don't think a 6% disaster is likely to strike again.

Devs have made decisions like this before and the block chain has been rolled back.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin

As a Brit it irks me I had to post an American quote  Wink but yea what this dude said.

If the bitcoin foundation or any organisation was able to do as the OP said I would drop Bitcoin in a second.
Freedom as in letting thieves roam free, or as is free to be ripped off?

Are you dropping your UK pounds?
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March 10, 2014, 09:09:53 AM
Last edit: March 10, 2014, 09:26:55 AM by andy10000
 #19

Lawlessness and decentralisation aren't the same thing. We could have a structure that allows for a decentralised decision to freeze these coins. Call it a "democracy". Miners vote, majority wins.

There's a real legal issue here, in that stolen goods remain the property of the victim. Imagine these coins enter general circulation and a credible law enforcement agency goes after them. (Edit: With half a BILLION dollars in play that's not such a far fetched scenario). Every satoshi you buy or receive as payment has a 7% chance of being a stolen one, and is recoverable by your national law enforcement in the US/EU/Asia. Bitcoin is super traceable. So the criminals will launder the coins and you and I will end up with them in our wallets and then comes a knock at the door with a legal order to reposes them. Unless you live in Nigeria.

Yes it sets a precedent. A really healthy one. Where do you draw the line? I don't know, but somewhere lower than 7% of the entire economy. Let the miners vote.

Not changing the way we do things after a disaster is really stupid thinking. You think after the Turkish earthquake they didn't upgrade the building code? After the Indonesian Tsunami they didn't create an emergency evacuation plan? Bitcoin is in it's infancy. It's not in it's final state. It's allowed to evolve. Regardless of how you were effected by Gox, or what you think of the victims decision making, this incident is a massive crisis for Bitcoin adoption. I think its sets the currency back years in the eyes of the next wave of adopters.

Creating a system that's perceived as fairer, and self policing would reverse that set back. For the future of bitcoins I say yes. Freeze them and return them.

Edit: punctuation
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March 10, 2014, 09:15:06 AM
 #20

I don't think a 6% disaster is likely to strike again.
I suggest reading this: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
Quote
Devs have made decisions like this before and the block chain has been rolled back.
There has been one block chain rollback ever, and that was after a critical issue in the block chain parsing itself, allowing infinite amounts of coins to be created.
It was a technical issue and bitcoin wouldn't even exist anymore without that fix.

Do you really not see the difference between that and an exchange that is mismanaged and screws up?



Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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