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Author Topic: Which wallet still support sending bitcoin with 0 fee?  (Read 603 times)
Artemis3
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January 04, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
 #21

Even with 1sat/B, your transaction would not even be relayed by most of the nodes, what do you try to achieve ?

Not true, in the last 6 months I did nearly all my transactions at 1sat/B and they usually confirm in about 1 hour or less.

What you should NOT do is use zero, that won't move at all. I remember some people on IRC saying its possible to use half satoshi per byte or so tho. But if you use "twice" of that (ie. 2sat/B) it often gets processed by the next block! (10 mins); or sometimes by 2~4  blocks, but you get the idea...

Electrum allows the "replace by fee" option in case you get desperate and something gets stuck for weeks, probably other wallets allow this too. It lets you increase the tx fee to an already broadcasted transaction, so you can spend some more satoshis to speed it up yourself.

Does rbf require your input to be used with a smaller output?

I'd be interested in trying to broadcast a 0 fee transaction but I'll have to nail the handshaking process and automate it because I reckon a lot of nodes will reject it.
0.1 sat/byte fee would be interesting too to see what happens,that's about 20 sats for a standard transaction then. It would be nice to see low fees again soon though.

Anything above 0 is probably good I think. 0.1 would be processed last, but at least not dropped like the zero tx often are...
For the future it is good that wallets allow even lower tx fees, as long as its not zero Smiley

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January 05, 2019, 02:51:28 PM
 #22

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

The Jet Cash coffee lounge in the Ivory Tower has had some good relaxing chat recently, just what you would expect.
We need some girls to brighten the conversation though.
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January 05, 2019, 07:29:00 PM
 #23

Does rbf require your input to be used with a smaller output?
There should be the same inputs and outputs with no change to the amount of coins sent + a new input which will be spent on the increased fee and an extra output if there are any coins left from the new input. However, there are different variants of RBF.

But by default, most wallet uses Opt-in RBF

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

I don't see the point of attempt broadcast transaction with 0 fees since we know most full nodes & server for SPV wallet won't relay it, unless you managed to connect to nodes owned by pool which accept transaction with 0 fees.

But there's no harm doing that, so you can try it even though we can guess the result.

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January 06, 2019, 03:07:15 AM
 #24

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

I don't see the point of attempt broadcast transaction with 0 fees since we know most full nodes & server for SPV wallet won't relay it, unless you managed to connect to nodes owned by pool which accept transaction with 0 fees.

But there's no harm doing that, so you can try it even though we can guess the result.

So does this mean that it is still possible? If there is a pool of miners who accepts it?

I think we can try because we can set a new tx fee for an already broadcasted transaction anyway.

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January 06, 2019, 04:22:35 AM
 #25

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

i just created one, now the problem is with broadcasting it. blockexplorer usually accepts them since they don't have the minrelayfee set but they are rejecting this because of it is creating a SegWit output.
i'll try sending it to a couple of nodes at random and see if they reject it later. for the time being here is the raw hex, feel free to broadcast it:
Code:
010000000146b41e52869bb29f12f47b428c7ed526240cc72b6fff8944b7253df287b54687000000006a47304402200c761028c92b3ce41f0300eae966e3fe7c0e378633e8990d2d6333791658c24a02206bd30d086232f4396c940cc47b967f49a90d4cafb4ac95b1abee94646a9a3bf1012102c80f8dfdfc9f1dd0ead731d8a4fc605f3c9efbcec744aa3be7be937bda612e10fdffffff01a086010000000000160014f913638202550e3dc872f3b22443a5027cd7ed99a37b0800

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January 06, 2019, 11:19:49 AM
 #26

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

i just created one, now the problem is with broadcasting it. blockexplorer usually accepts them since they don't have the minrelayfee set but they are rejecting this because of it is creating a SegWit output.
i'll try sending it to a couple of nodes at random and see if they reject it later. for the time being here is the raw hex, feel free to broadcast it:
Code:
010000000146b41e52869bb29f12f47b428c7ed526240cc72b6fff8944b7253df287b54687000000006a47304402200c761028c92b3ce41f0300eae966e3fe7c0e378633e8990d2d6333791658c24a02206bd30d086232f4396c940cc47b967f49a90d4cafb4ac95b1abee94646a9a3bf1012102c80f8dfdfc9f1dd0ead731d8a4fc605f3c9efbcec744aa3be7be937bda612e10fdffffff01a086010000000000160014f913638202550e3dc872f3b22443a5027cd7ed99a37b0800

No luck here, all rejected for the same min relay fee error. Checking your address of input and it seems you've had no luck broadcasting it either. Only way now is for a miner to manually include it I guess and since there were 4 0-fee txs confirmed in the last 24 hours, then there's at least 1 big guy still doing it. Probably just their own txs though. Might spend some time a bit later tomorrow if I remember, to identify the miner/miners who included those txs!


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January 06, 2019, 06:54:16 PM
 #27

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.

i just created one, now the problem is with broadcasting it. blockexplorer usually accepts them since they don't have the minrelayfee set but they are rejecting this because of it is creating a SegWit output.
i'll try sending it to a couple of nodes at random and see if they reject it later. for the time being here is the raw hex, feel free to broadcast it:
Code:
010000000146b41e52869bb29f12f47b428c7ed526240cc72b6fff8944b7253df287b54687000000006a47304402200c761028c92b3ce41f0300eae966e3fe7c0e378633e8990d2d6333791658c24a02206bd30d086232f4396c940cc47b967f49a90d4cafb4ac95b1abee94646a9a3bf1012102c80f8dfdfc9f1dd0ead731d8a4fc605f3c9efbcec744aa3be7be937bda612e10fdffffff01a086010000000000160014f913638202550e3dc872f3b22443a5027cd7ed99a37b0800

No luck here, all rejected for the same min relay fee error. Checking your address of input and it seems you've had no luck broadcasting it either. Only way now is for a miner to manually include it I guess and since there were 4 0-fee txs confirmed in the last 24 hours, then there's at least 1 big guy still doing it. Probably just their own txs though. Might spend some time a bit later tomorrow if I remember, to identify the miner/miners who included those txs!



Have you tried bitmain and bitfury? If anyone accepts low or no fees it's going to be them or slush.

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January 06, 2019, 06:54:36 PM
 #28

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.
I don't see the point of attempt broadcast transaction with 0 fees since we know most full nodes & server for SPV wallet won't relay it, unless you managed to connect to nodes owned by pool which accept transaction with 0 fees.

But there's no harm doing that, so you can try it even though we can guess the result.
So does this mean that it is still possible? If there is a pool of miners who accepts it?

Yes, but finding IP nodes which owned by pool is hard task, unless they share it.

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January 06, 2019, 11:36:45 PM
 #29

Has anybody tried to send a zero fee transaction? I might have a go if nobody has attempted it.
I've tried that a few months ago when the network traffic was quite low
I pushed it to a few nodes, some nodes rejected immediately while a few accepted but rejected eventually
those that accepted the tx, removed it after a few minutes... I can tell by checking that node's blockchain explorer

There still appear to be zero-fee transactions if you check even past 24 hours, there were 2 transactions but as Pmalek says above, probably just miners including their own transactions in their blocks.
can you tell me their txids? which pool found the block?
would be interesting to try push 0-fee tx into that node and see whether the tx gets through or not Cheesy

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January 07, 2019, 05:38:25 AM
 #30

There still appear to be zero-fee transactions if you check even past 24 hours, there were 2 transactions but as Pmalek says above, probably just miners including their own transactions in their blocks.
can you tell me their txids? which pool found the block?
would be interesting to try push 0-fee tx into that node and see whether the tx gets through or not Cheesy

Just got my lazy ass to check and all the 0-fee transactions in the past 5 days including today and there's a very curious 2 txs a day, each in 1 block, and all found by F2Pool all between 2.30am to 6.15am UTC... the coinbase data all separate names.

Of those pair of 0-fees, 1 looks like a consolidation, and 1 is split to over 3,800 outputs. So this looks like F2Pool just paying its own participants, so no fees necessary.

Example block 557390, tx IDs d8e18f5022434269cf59603a70594e5d78485208290a106135ef83f7341cbed8 and 035d37ece0c7bb52e2f6a9f2c16d06bd6ef6840a73e25c1ffc5357d56eaf0452

The 4 other blocks: 557248, 557080, 556931, 556793.

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January 07, 2019, 04:17:31 PM
 #31


If my wallet gets made, I'll be the irresponsible one and put 0 sat per byte fee limit on the software config so I can have cheap transactions (then do one of my strategies when it doesn't confirm to unlock the funds) - it'll probably get blocked by normal Bitcoin nodes anyway if I do too much in adjusting the protocols Wink.


If you want to try that by sending the Satoshi to the Crypto Coin Tree Segwit address, then I'll pay your the Sterling value if it works.

The Jet Cash coffee lounge in the Ivory Tower has had some good relaxing chat recently, just what you would expect.
We need some girls to brighten the conversation though.
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January 07, 2019, 07:24:37 PM
Last edit: January 07, 2019, 07:54:10 PM by jackg
 #32


If my wallet gets made, I'll be the irresponsible one and put 0 sat per byte fee limit on the software config so I can have cheap transactions (then do one of my strategies when it doesn't confirm to unlock the funds) - it'll probably get blocked by normal Bitcoin nodes anyway if I do too much in adjusting the protocols Wink.


If you want to try that by sending the Satoshi to the Crypto Coin Tree Segwit address, then I'll pay your the Sterling value if it works.

It won't actually work unless I get you to recompile the source Sad.
I'm guessing no one else has actually recompiled the source themselves after that edit meaning it probably won't work, unless you fancy downgrading to 0.10.2 or something (I have a copy on my hard drive).

(Don't come here and say you just have to set the mintxfee to zero because IT DOESN'T WORK --aimed at those who believe it does - not jet cash - I wasted half an hour making that transaction if I'm honest electrum does some weird stuff)


@Jet Cash, I was going to send you this:

[tx hash removed, @jet cash check your pm on fittotalk.com]

A happy zero fee transaction Smiley.
Someone push that through in a couple of years when the min tx fee is 10 sats per byte because the bitcoin devs are trying to price us out of the market Cry.
"Ooh it will be reduced when v 0.18.0 comes out" they're saying. We've had a release since then of one of their fixes, and it can't be that much to change...


I'd like to send $4 without a fee, why is that a stupid ask?

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January 07, 2019, 10:04:00 PM
Merited by ETFbitcoin (1), jackg (1), HCP (1)
 #33

We've had a release since then of one of their fixes, and it can't be that much to change...
A point release is for bug fixes or soft fork deployment parameter, not major feature changes. Changing the minimum relay fee rate (and everything else that goes with it) would be a major feature release. It definitely would not be first released as a point release. Just because your favorite change isn't in a point release does not mean it is not going to be in the next release.

And just because you think "it can't be that much to change" does not mean it is not. There are a lot more fee rates than just the minimum relay fee and changing fee rates affects a lot of components.

I'd like to send $4 without a fee, why is that a stupid ask?
If you can send $4 without a fee, then I can send 100 million 1 satoshi transactions back to myself without a fee. And I can do this constantly and indefinitely forever flooding the blockchain and the mempool. This kind of spam is detrimental the network and has potential to cause major problems. That's the whole reason there's a transaction fee and a minimum relay fee: to prevent this sort of spam.



When changing anything in any of Bitcoin's consensus or transaction relay policies and protocols, you can't just think about the short term and how a change affects just you as a user. This is a distributed and decentralized system where major changes to the protocols affect the whole ecosystem. You have to look at the big picture and see how a change affects the entire ecosystem as a whole, not just the individual.

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January 08, 2019, 05:30:26 AM
 #34

what is all this talk about downgrading upgrading,... can't you already change minrelaytxfee to another number in your bitcoin core settings? i don't have bitcoin core anymore (because of HDD problems, it being full!) to check it out. (as in calling -minrelaytxfee=0 in your console).

I'd like to send $4 without a fee, why is that a stupid ask?
you are free to send it with no fees (as i did with the transaction that i posted above) and the rest of the network are also free to chose to either reject or accept it. it just happens that majority of the network is currently rejecting 0 fee transactions and miners love this Smiley

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January 08, 2019, 11:59:34 AM
 #35

what is all this talk about downgrading upgrading,... can't you already change minrelaytxfee to another number in your bitcoin core settings? i don't have bitcoin core anymore (because of HDD problems, it being full!) to check it out. (as in calling -minrelaytxfee=0 in your console).

I'd like to send $4 without a fee, why is that a stupid ask?
you are free to send it with no fees (as i did with the transaction that i posted above) and the rest of the network are also free to chose to either reject or accept it. it just happens that majority of the network is currently rejecting 0 fee transactions and miners love this Smiley

You get an error with setting mintxfee to zero. Anything higher is fine but... I'm guessing you can't go lower than 0.00000001.

So the second point is also a no to the first part but a yes to the second. I gave up trying to put it through...

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January 09, 2019, 06:07:51 PM
 #36

I tried sending a few Satoshi to my CoinBase account with a 1 Satoshi/Kb fee, It keeps updating the fee to what I assume is a minimum rate. This applies to 0 Satoshi as well.

The Jet Cash coffee lounge in the Ivory Tower has had some good relaxing chat recently, just what you would expect.
We need some girls to brighten the conversation though.
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January 09, 2019, 07:07:03 PM
 #37

I tried sending a few Satoshi to my CoinBase account with a 1 Satoshi/Kb fee, It keeps updating the fee to what I assume is a minimum rate. This applies to 0 Satoshi as well.

Can you send me the raw unsigned transaction hash? I'm not sure how you get it out of core.
If you used electrum I could help put it through much easier.

Instead. Use the mintxfee=0.00000001 when starting the client - I'm not entirely sure on the command pooya said minrelaytxfee so you could try that one too with the operand of 0.00000001.

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January 09, 2019, 07:24:42 PM
 #38

I kept changing the fee, so I didn't send it.

If I get the chance tomorrow, I'll have a go at changing things, but I might have to fry another pizza instead. Smiley

The Jet Cash coffee lounge in the Ivory Tower has had some good relaxing chat recently, just what you would expect.
We need some girls to brighten the conversation though.
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January 16, 2019, 02:29:36 PM
 #39

I kept changing the fee, so I didn't send it.

If I get the chance tomorrow, I'll have a go at changing things, but I might have to fry another pizza instead. Smiley

Did you manage this?
I need 2 hashes and the amount sent for each (same inputs and same outputs in both just a slightly different fee and amount spent)?

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January 16, 2019, 02:44:12 PM
 #40

I always tought that btcd allowed the minimum relay fee to be 0:

https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd/blob/86fed781132ac890ee03e906e4ecd5d6fa180c64/mempool/policy.go#L61

Seems like there is no "hardcoded" limit, if the minRelayTxFee == 0, then minFee = 0

Code:
~snip~
--limitfreerelay=     Limit relay of transactions with no transaction fee
                          to the given amount in thousands of bytes per
                          minute (15)
--norelaypriority     Do not require free or low-fee transactions to have
                          high priority for relaying
~snip~
source: https://godoc.org/github.com/btcsuite/btcd

BTW: here's a 0 fee non-segwit transaction i made in case somebody wants to try to broadcast it Wink
Code:
010000000137c82cec0a27b399c3737c6c61f0f934deb33ff3cfb6ef1016e62d434a6204a3000000008b483045022100f8ecb38d7b9b2a1bdb8ea31af39466d88727ad863e82b3c52258011420c65715022039e0a55698347c8198385beb252814e08c48dab7b01f233d3f20e5deb054f2f7014104ed1df4aaa790f8118646976365a33de02dcbb4c78d92edf1271a85abe53c15a316d08c29b1069a52ae98e015a29aa52cbeb41c1fb77bf091d809d286adff8a73ffffffff01d02a0f00000000001976a914e432ffb6ef0bde696af29ca13dd37c0824a4082388ac00000000
ps: don't try to include it into a block you're currently trying to solve just to do me a favor, the transaction is using an unspent output funding the exact same address that was funded by the unspent output, so including it into a block would have 0 effect.

I've had this discussion with a couple of new users just last week, If i'm not mistaking 0 fee transactions aren't illegal at the protocol level, it's just most node's and most wallet's implementation that stops 0 fee transactions to be created/broadcasted/... If you use the console of core, and use createrawtransaction signrawtransaction AND broadcast to (for example) a btcd node that has 0 fee relay AND by sheer luck end up with a miner that also uses btcd with 0 fee option AND the miner has non-full block AND includes your tx (not sure if he'd have to rewrite his software to allow this), there is a very small possibility of creating, broadcasting and getting a 0 fee transaction into a block... (a very, very, very, very small possibility).

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