Why is the violence in France completely legitimate?

[mOgliE]

Hi everyone.

Tons of people, most of them not from France, are currently pointing out the protests as being horribly too violent and saying the protestors are savages that should be get killed or at least jailed.

This is an understandable point of view from anyone not knowing the country recent history. After all, France has still a quite strong economy and is a free democracy, so violence can seem as people unsatisfied with election results getting violent just because they lost.


So here is the point of view of one of the French violent protestors so you can see why a huge number of people are getting more and more violent.

France is free

This has become completely false. Though it would be crazy to compare France to North Korea, we have seen our rights reduced in a number of ways with the terrorism threat excuses:

-Demonstrations are forbiden unless previously approved by government

-Public gathering are theorically forbidenn unless previously aproved by local authorities (though in practice 90% of local authorities don't apply this rule)

-Free speach has been completely anihilated. We were never the USA in terms of free speach but now anything said directly against government can be punished as "incitation of violence in a crisis context". Not to mention the prosecution of anything seemingly said against any minorities.

-National emergency has been active for... I don't know? 2 or 3 years I think? This means military in the streets, regular check of identity and belongings on a daily basis, and numerous public places forbidden to the public.

-French government has been caught having a shadow militia. People bearing weapons and police uniforms, without being registered anywhere, directly under French president authority and used as political police or to put pressure on elected representants. This is not a joke or an exageration, look for "Benala case" if you want to know more.

France is a democracy

Best lie you can get. Of course France isn't a democracy but a representative democracy, meaning people elect representants and those people have the power. But it got MUCH WORSE in last years:

-There is since 2016 a direct control of justice from French government. President appoints ministry of justice, who appoints the biggest judge in the country. Means that anything that is trouble for French government goes directly in front of this judge who has no choice but to obey the president. That's not an exageration as there is currently a heated trial case that has been transformed in a mocked trial due to presidential influence (just look for "Benala" for more)

-Since 2012, French government has used a dictatorial tool known as "atricle 13" more than 10 times. It means the French government can put any law in action without having to go in front of the chamber first. It's litteraly: the president does this and you can't say anything.

-Numerous of times government has taken decision officialy refused by the people. Referendum on the EU has been simply ignored, laws on economy deregulation refused at 85% by the population has been put through with article 13...


There would be much more to say of course. But I hope you get the general idea that the country has changed a LOT in a short time and NOT in a good way. Every year France is closer to an elective dictatorship and this is really frightening. That's why the protest is mainly about the possibility for the people to directly open a referendum, in order to be able to stop this crazy dictatorial path taken by the various governments.

And there is no way to do it peacefully. How would you force your government to take the people into account if not by force? By election? Impossible as they already rigged the election system after last ones were too close for them... Now we're nearly at a bi party system.

I hope you understand better what the population has gone through and why the hate and wrath are transforming into such a violent protest. This is the only way we have. Unless we bend the knee there is no way they'll stop.

[1715115805]

1715115805

[ATMD]

Yep, France does not seem to be scoring highly in the democracy ratings.

The "Flaws" of French Democracy

This article is four years old but still relevant today.

[mikeywith]

Democracy is a unicorn.

[theymos]

I more-or-less agree with your grievances, but where's the strategy? I echo The Pharmacist's comments in the other thread in saying that this movement is looking mainly like a group of undirected terrorists, which is probably turning off a huge segment of the population who would otherwise agree with you. If people are more worried about having their homes firebombed by an anarchic mob than about abstract concepts like freedom of speech, then your movement is dead.

I suspect that the movement will lose size and popularity over time as Macron both cracks down and gives some concessions, until the remnants can be safely wiped out. To avoid this I think you'd need to create a sort of parallel government which can claim widespread support from the movement as a whole, and then compete with Macron's regime either within the current framework, or compete with the entire old government for legitimacy. Extremely difficult.

(Admittedly, I'm nowhere near France or even Europe, so my ability to accurately perceive the situation is limited.)

[Oxstone]

I more-or-less agree with your grievances, but where's the strategy? I echo The Pharmacist's comments in the other thread in saying that this movement is looking mainly like a group of undirected terrorists
[...]
(Admittedly, I'm nowhere near France or even Europe, so my ability to accurately perceive the situation is limited.)

You might be not in France but you're fucking right on the spot.

Movement is losing support actively because people can't relate...
There is no strategy because strategy needs leadership, and the main idea of YW is that there is no leader. You have extreme right and extreme left going on the street at the same time, who could be a leader? No one can gather equally communists, anarchists, monarchists, nationalists, fascists...

So the group is large, dangerous, violent, and all asking for one thing: Direct referendum. That's the only thing all those groups have in common, the will to take back the power from the government.

[TECSHARE]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-14/french-riot-police-deploy-semi-automatic-weapons-against-yellow-vests-macron-loses

Just wow. The US police hardly ever brandish rifles against protests/riots, but perhaps this is just because they know we can shoot back

This just goes to show you what results when you let the government hold a monopoly on violence. IMO this was a retarded choice to arm them for 1000 reasons. Whoever decided to do this WANTS France in a civil war. All it is going to take is a few protestors shot by the police before the whole country loses its fucking mind, then those police won't be safe anywhere even if they are carrying RPGs.

[CristianOff]

As a person who doesn't live in France or ever lived there, I FULLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING SAID

I know many people living there. Some WERE successful entrepreneurs, owning small restaurants in different
areas of France. I can tell you that since 2016 everything went bad for some reasons and all of my friend's restaurants closed. He told me that people in France
seem to have lost the sense of enjoying their life. People are more likely to save money rather than go with their family to a restaurant or enjoy their time.

Either French people have changed their culture and values overnight or something is going on. Do you believe that the economic state of France which
GDP in 2014 decreased by 0.4 TRILLION and hasn't recovered yet is affecting the overall situation? Also why does it look that in all countries, USA, UK, France, etc.
we are going 'backwards' / negatively progressing?
UK going out of the UE, making a situation similar prior to World War II,
France being what you stated in the post,
USA on the edge of leaving NATO like in World War II

[Pearls Before Swine]

And there is no way to do it peacefully. How would you force your government to take the people into account if not by force? By election? Impossible as they already rigged the election system after last ones were too close for them... Now we're nearly at a bi party system.

If the situation is as bad as you're describing it doesn't sound as though working from the inside is going to accomplish much.  Also it does not surprise me whatsoever that protesters would be described as 'savage' by the media, because if France is anything like the U.S., media outlets are basically controlled by the government and large corporations and will make real justice look like the work of criminals.

I'd no idea things were this bad over there, and you have my sympathy and support.  Fight the bastards until their legs give out.  The world is in such a chaotic state right now that it's no wonder subterranean concrete bunkers are becoming all the rage.

[Oxstone]

Also it does not surprise me whatsoever that protesters would be described as 'savage' by the media, because if France is anything like the U.S., media outlets are basically controlled by the government and large corporations and will make real justice look like the work of criminals.

Here is a good graphic showing how right you are:

https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/ppa-archive

The entire French media is controlled by a bunch of rich dudes.

No way the TV could be bias of course...

[TECSHARE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8XJPr8gec

How much longer do you think people will tolerate this before a full fledged civil war breaks out? FYI, they say he was shot with a "less lethal" munition, which is technically accurate, but from what I understand it was actually a flash bang grenade of some type he was shot directly in the head with. OFC those are not designed to be less lethal with direct impact to the head...

[TECSHARE]

Democracy is a unicorn.

What do you mean by that?

A unicorn is a mythical creature... Though I don't agree. Pure Democracy is real, it is called mob rule.

[Spendulus]

Democracy is a unicorn.

What do you mean by that?

A unicorn is a mythical creature... Though I don't agree. Pure Democracy is real, it is called mob rule.

Excepting for the fact that there ARE UNICORNS!!!!

https://mentalfloss.com/article/79557/curious-case-ringlings-living-unicorn

[cestmoi]

Hi everyone.

~snip~


So here is the point of view of one of the French violent protestors so you can see why a huge number of people are getting more and more violent.
~snip~

Hey mOgliE,
I agree with all your statements.
France has this glamorous image for tourists, but it is far from being a paradise for French people.
And the taxes, the layers of paperwork / administration / restriction make it hard to conceive a future.
But no place on earth is perfect either, i was born in France, i lived there 28 years and moved overseas 4 years ago.
I don't regret it, but when i look at the situation in Spain, Greece, Poland, Russia.... I realise that France, while not perfect isn't too bad.

Are you french ?  i haven't seen you posting in the French board ?

Also your quote infers that you are one of the violent protesters
May i suggest that you  do actions and / or destroy infrastructure and goods that pisses off the government and not the public.

Some ideas for you and your friends :
Buy a cheap car on leboncoin, abandon it in from the Elyzee (don't forget to puncture the tyres), burn it if you want (it is yours). Then declare it stolen (it will use police ressources).
Ask a farmer to deliver some cow's poo in front of the city hall.
Go at night and put a lock on the door of the courthouse, the city hall, the tax building, the prefecture, banks ...
Collect dog poo and throw it at the cops.
Collect dog poo and ship / post  it  to the ministers / deputy / senators .
collect dog poo and spread it on the walls of government buildings
Get people to chain themselves to doors.
Make the tolls free at the highway
.....
be imaginative !

Don't loot an Apple store or break a velib 



I will quote the pharmacist as his statement is very good :

~snip~ the rioters don't end up storming a courthouse; they break into shops and loot stuff.  It makes total sense if you're a cynic like me who thinks that greed drives most people's behavior, but rioting doesn't accomplish much for whatever the cause is except for media attention. ~snip~

[kenzawak]

I suspect that the movement will lose size and popularity over time as Macron both cracks down and gives some concessions, until the remnants can be safely wiped out.

That's not the case right now. People have been in the streets during Christmas time, with low temperatures, they're not gonna stop now especially since every action taken by Macron is another insult to them.
Right now, his great new idea is supposed to be a national debate... well it's a joke. There is no debate, only him imposing his ideas (he "talks" with French mayors... they listen).
European elections are coming and he's trying to buy some time. At the end of this debate, he will make a few proposals (he already knows which ones lol)... it will take a few days for people (and the media) to realize they're useless... nothing will have changed.

To avoid this I think you'd need to create a sort of parallel government which can claim widespread support from the movement as a whole, and then compete with Macron's regime either within the current framework, or compete with the entire old government for legitimacy.

Seems to be the only way out, some kind of apolitical movement who would interfere with the current government decisions.

The Gilets Jaunes agree on the most important proposals :
-a fairer tax system
-a better control on state expenses
-the RIC (the referendum you probably heard about)
-a higher minimum wage

And probably a few other things but these don't seem undoable right ?

P.S : what's more violent ?
Physical violence ? Like punching someone in the face ?
Psychological violence ? Like making someone unable to provide for his family ?

[mOgliE]

Hey mOgliE,
I agree with all your statements.
[...]
Are you french ?  i haven't seen you posting in the French board ?

Hey. Yes I am but I never post on French board. Honnêtement on est vraiment pas nombreux et la pluspart de FR à mon époque étaient des trous du culs de l'accabit de TECSHARE.

Also your quote infers that you are one of the violent protesters
May i suggest that you  do actions and / or destroy infrastructure and goods that pisses off the government and not the public.

You clearly haven't participated in one of those protests at the moment it gets violent.

You're not really in the situation of thinking.
The goal is simply to defend yourself from the police. Destroying the shops is here as a mean to do damage to "the other side".

Protests are put in the broad middle of Paris. There is no poor shopowner there, don't believe the TV. You think a baking shop in the Champs-Elysées is a small business led by a poor guy with a loan? Think again. Shops destroyed belong to heavy corporation, even restaurants are all parts of a network.

And anyways, banks are the first target.

Some ideas for you and your friends :
Buy a cheap car on leboncoin, abandon it in from the Elyzee (don't forget to puncture the tyres), burn it if you want (it is yours). Then declare it stolen (it will use police ressources).
Ask a farmer to deliver some cow's poo in front of the city hall.
Go at night and put a lock on the door of the courthouse, the city hall, the tax building, the prefecture, banks ...
Collect dog poo and throw it at the cops.
Collect dog poo and ship / post  it  to the ministers / deputy / senators .
collect dog poo and spread it on the walls of government buildings
Get people to chain themselves to doors.
Make the tolls free at the highway
.....
be imaginative !

Don't loot an Apple store or break a velib 

Again you clearly don't see how things happen. And you never faced the police or the danger behind. You think doing something legal protects you? Police pins you down and beat the shit out of you without any reason. They don't need a reason.
I've seen students get beaten so hard the lost a few tooth while they were surrendering.

Police are nazis in France simply because they answer to no one. No one can charge them in a trial, no one can do anything. They're all "assermentés" which means that, by law, whatever they say under oath is the truth and the only truth.

[JohnUser]

Hey mOgliE,
I agree with all your statements.
[...]
Are you french ?  i haven't seen you posting in the French board ?

Hey. Yes I am but I never post on French board. Honnêtement on est vraiment pas nombreux et la pluspart de FR à mon époque étaient des trous du culs de l'accabit de TECSHARE.

I also agree with everything you said.

Except maybe one point, we talk about it every days on the french local board, so you're really welcome to talk with us : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5086499.0

Edit : I see you already post in this thread, so I don't get why you say we are all against it... (but I get why you say most frenchs are assholes on bitcointalk, here we can see it again, they don't want anything to change and they claim days after days that everything is alright)

[700G]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8XJPr8gec

How much longer do you think people will tolerate this before a full fledged civil war breaks out? FYI, they say he was shot with a "less lethal" munition, which is technically accurate, but from what I understand it was actually a flash bang grenade of some type he was shot directly in the head with. OFC those are not designed to be less lethal with direct impact to the head...

French Revolution II?

[TECSHARE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8XJPr8gec

How much longer do you think people will tolerate this before a full fledged civil war breaks out? FYI, they say he was shot with a "less lethal" munition, which is technically accurate, but from what I understand it was actually a flash bang grenade of some type he was shot directly in the head with. OFC those are not designed to be less lethal with direct impact to the head...

French Revolution II?

Try global revolution.

[kenzawak]

To avoid this I think you'd need to create a sort of parallel government which can claim widespread support from the movement as a whole, and then compete with Macron's regime either within the current framework, or compete with the entire old government for legitimacy. Extremely difficult.

The Gilets Jaunes have decided to make a list for the next European elections.
For now, there are 10 names on that list but many more are yet to be added, the total should be 79.
First surveys have them at 13%, which would place them as the 3rd party in the country.

[JohnUser]

To avoid this I think you'd need to create a sort of parallel government which can claim widespread support from the movement as a whole, and then compete with Macron's regime either within the current framework, or compete with the entire old government for legitimacy. Extremely difficult.

The Gilets Jaunes have decided to make a list for the next European elections.
For now, there are 10 names on that list but many more are yet to be added, the total should be 79.
First surveys have them at 13%, which would place them as the 3rd party in the country.

The yellow vests are totally against this list!
The movement is apolitical, so creating a political movement is playing the macron game (and that's what he want).

The only word of order remains: RIC then resignation of macron.