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Author Topic: BTC - POS is the future  (Read 206 times)
Cuk0ng_bitc0in
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January 13, 2019, 11:26:58 AM
 #21

Is not the best solution POS instead POW?

Can XTZ be an alternative to BTC? I mean seriously. XTZ has much more to offer than BTC and no need for huge electricity consumption, you remove 51% attack options, the code is way more secured than ETH...
POS need more coin for stake on wallet, some people dont have alot btc to do it.
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January 13, 2019, 06:46:18 PM
 #22

You don't understand the advantages of PoW. It can monetize private production of power. It allows people to have their own power sources and turn it directly into electronic money that doesn't depend on your country or your local economy. PoS has its weak points too like centralization.

At POS you don't need power consumption at all. And why would POS be centralized?

Because it's much easier to buy coins than to set up a mining operation. To have a vote in a POS coin all you have to do is come in with a lot of money and buy it out. Then you can decide for all other users what path it will take. I like both POW and POS because they have their pros and cons but we can't simply call one better.

I don't see anything wrong in power consumption. Banks and their servers have been doing it for decades and nobody cares.

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January 13, 2019, 08:39:30 PM
 #23

Both PoW and PoS have it's own pros and cons, but developer and majority of the community think PoW overall better than PoS. You should do more research about both of consensus method.
You might want to read this article Proof-of-Stake & the Wrong Engineering Mindset

And if you still think XTZ which use PoS is the future, then you should sell of your coins beside it (in case you haven't do it).

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January 13, 2019, 10:55:22 PM
 #24

there are a lot of similar bitcoins, but anyway, Bitcoin always remained the king and I think that he will be top in the future
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January 14, 2019, 04:21:37 AM
 #25

Both PoW and PoS have it's own pros and cons, but developer and majority of the community think PoW overall better than PoS. You should do more research about both of consensus method.
You might want to read this article Proof-of-Stake & the Wrong Engineering Mindset

And if you still think XTZ which use PoS is the future, then you should sell of your coins beside it (in case you haven't do it).

How to put it.  You Friend's Article has mistakes.
Quote
In PoW, the nodes will automatically self-organize & eventually gravitate towards one single chain: the chain with the most accumulated PoW (and the most secure). It will be painful, since some chains will get wiped out in the process. But it will work, and the behavior is deterministic.

In PoS, the nodes would have no idea which chain is the more “correct” chain. Unlike PoW, PoS has no objective yardstick to compare the “realness” between 2 chains. Behavior is indeterministic & impossible to automate away without introducing some arbitrary rules that increase the attack surface. The split might become permanent, as some PoS protocols make it impossible to go back too far into the past.

PoS nodes will Reorganize to the Longest Chain with the most coins with the highest coin age.
During Reorganization those PoS clients will resend out any coins , as they sync with the new chain.

Your friend is correct in some PoS coin has a rolling checkpoint, however even they only need to redownload a blockchain snapshot or boot strap to get on the correct chain if the rolling checkpoint limit was exceeded. (This is only for those coins using rolling checkpoints.  All of the others will Reorganize and sync no issue.)

Also a global failure would be noticed everywhere for a PoW or PoS network and the people would all halt transactions until the network were working normally.

Quote
PoS protocol designers often go to great lengths to “punish” misbehaving actors. What they don’t consider is the possibility that all nodes act honestly, but there’s a chain split nonetheless!

Again , this is also in error , only Ethereum Casper Protocol is threatening to punish bad nodes, Casper protocol is not yet active and no other coin but etherum designed to use it. All Standard PoS coins only orphan a block but the rewards are still granted later at the interest is recalculated to be higher according to the later stake date, no punishment.

Quote
PoS also fares worse in other worst case scenarios such as stolen private keys.

With Stolen Private Keys , in PoW or PoS all of the coins can be sold and Crash the Market Price
(Which Grants Fiat to the perpetrator.)

Criminals needs to steal many more than 51% to control a PoS network , closer to 90% to match the damage a PoW 51% attacks can accomplish.
Thinking a Criminal will steal the majority of a PoS private keys and then not sell for fiat but just waste time trying to destroy the value of the PoS coin network without pay.
Would be the same as bank robber stealing a million dollars and instead of spending it, he sets its on fire . (So their is literally no profit to this attack, just waste everyone time.)

 

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January 14, 2019, 04:56:22 AM
Last edit: January 14, 2019, 05:25:25 AM by Khaos77
 #26

So you're saying the PoW coin's value is directly corresponding to the production cost of new coins
and even older coins created at a much lower production prices , their price automatically grows to match the highest most recent production cost.
Since the production price per PoW coin continues grow due to increased competition , are you of the mindset that the price per bitcoin will rise forever even to the point where a satoshi is worth $1 million.

You make the point that PoW coin price is directly tied to production cost,
Utility seems to be a non-issue for the value of a PoW coin in your theory,
while a PoS coin can only achieve any price value if it has a utility function as price support.  

I heard the current price of Bitcoin ($3,658.82) is below production price for the majority of miners,
is that information false or how is it possible the current market price be lower than production price in your understanding?

TIA

1. no i am not saying the PRICE is tied to production cost
i am saying the UNDERLYING VALUE is linked to mining cost

2. as for the 'majority' of miners. they do not mine at 6cent-20cent electric and paying $1450 for asics.
the majority get cheap electric at under 6cents electric and they get bulk discount or cheap asics due to being the manufacturers or know manufacturers enough to get discounts
those mining with only a couple asics and doing it from their own home are not productive because they have not found the cheapest solutions. they are just hobby mining and not the serious majority. yes you will hear hobby miners complain they are not making profit but out of the millions of asics. hobby mining is not that much

3. the UNDERLYING VALUE is UNDERLYING. it is NOT the price. it is a value below the price that makes up the SUPPORT where people refuse to sell below.

take 2018
    /\
   /  \
  /    \/\/\   __/\   ___
 /  _____\/____\/__/\\
/_/                             \\//

underlying value was at $5800
which is why for the majority of 2018 the price did not go below $5800.
then in october a mass sell off of old S9's occured (cheap second hand prices) making it cheaper to mine as new s15's were also being tested. so the underlying value went down which caused the november 2018 price movement to go down

4. PoS have no ongoing cost. . the initial 'stake' is not a ongoing cost. you dont lose it so you get to keep the 'stake' when you decide you dont want to mine. unlike paying for electric which is an ongoing cost.

5. as for thinking btc should turn to PoS. there are many issues
a. exchanges hoarding many large addresses of 50k coins+ will win block signing the most
b. signing blocks is not as secure as the hashing mechanism of mining
c. hobbiests that just buy PoS coins at speculative prices and stake it have no ongoing cost. but due to exchanges who also have no costs but do have huge hoards, means that hobbiests wont be getting rich.

real world analogy
PoW is people working for the cheque clearing house and getting paid a salary for their labour costs
PoS is people just putting funds into a chequeing account hoping for some interest payment

the thing about PoS is if there are many addresses with 50,000 coins. and then 50k addresses with 1coin each. the stake threshold would be above 1coin  so all those holding just one coin wont even meet the stake requirement so wont get anything.
like bank accounts. have below $100 in an account. dont expect any interest. have $500k+ expect to have a high interest account

some argue that PoS has a underlying cost because people need to fund the stake. but they can take the stake back out.
PoS is pure SPECULATION
PoW has underlying costs

in short. any hobbiest who is crying they cant get a good electric/asic deals to be competitive mining PoW.. will also find they dont have the funds to stake(savings account) enough to be competitive PoS

this is why PoS users end up 'pooling' their stake and trusting they will get shares of a pooled address. yet the practice of this is still not a good security for the network nor good self control of your funds

in short. hobbiests that think they can get rich for nothing or from their home PC's doing little work or little effort will be sadly wokn up to the truth that they are not making profit


You Very Smart Man , I can see that.  Probably well off in 1st world country also, good for you.

I poor man, PoS coin does have underlying costs for me, but the costs are so low you probably consider them insignificant.

Run PoS network require nodes, VPS, VPS require I pay them money or tie up my personal computer which i can not do, need for other things.
Many PoS coins require about same specs as world of warcraft.
So $40 per VPS for one that can meet needed tasks that run 24x7.
so 30X$40 = $1200 every month to operate a PoS network
(30 different people share the cost by each running 1 VPS)

So to me their is underlying cost , but to rich , you see no cost because you so rich already.

You make good point that PoS pools give increased control over PoS networks, but on the other hand you ignore that PoW pools also give increased control of a PoW network.
Bitcoin has less than 15 pools, while PoS coins have average 50 staking address at one time.  
Pools bad for one then they bad for both , and no one ever suggest bitcoin quit using pools.

Some PoS coins use coin age, so the longer it take my block to stake the stronger it chances get.
It may take 60 to 90 days, but my block does stake.

ASICS no use any increase in time to increase chance, they only run hash at their rated speed,
PoW only for Rich, PoS is only chance poor have to stake/mine any new coins.

Some say, poor people like me don't deserve chance to run a PoS coin and earn money, to which I say ,
rich buy asics and mine new coins
poor buy PoS coins and stake new coins

rich spend millions every month because they have it
poor spend hundreds every month because it is all we have

People can sprout the so called advantage of PoW, but 51% attacks happen on both PoW & PoS, neither has guaranteed it will never happen.

Rich can spend millions every month,
The rest of us have to make do with what we can afford and our best chance at a brighter future is only PoS,
PoW left us behind, when it left the PCs.

 

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January 14, 2019, 04:41:08 PM
 #27

for me its not a rich vs poor debate. for me its those who want to change bitcoin to be PoS, IF they are doing so purely to get a lottery win and then exit bitcoin fiat rich....
...are the kinds of people we dont want changing bitcoin.. as they dont care about bitcoin.

and its not about rich or poor.
its not about how poor may deserve a lift off the ground, or slapped back down

its just if you dont care about bitcoins sustainability. and you have not done the research into which security is best. and all you can think about is profit. then maybe your not the best person to be handling the topic

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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January 14, 2019, 04:51:22 PM
 #28

You don't understand the advantages of PoW. It can monetize private production of power. It allows people to have their own power sources and turn it directly into electronic money that doesn't depend on your country or your local economy. PoS has its weak points too like centralization.
I thought PoW consensus algorithm have been queried by many developers of being centralized. in fact it gives dominance to some miners than others. prove of stake algorithm might as well have its own shortcoming but to the best of my knowledge it is still ok than PoW. imagine 0.33% of global electricity is what is being consume by mining bitcoin. This is too much. running PoS is the best. No huge amount of energy is needed. it is cost effective, High throughtput and the transaction speed is superb. I am sure satoshi would have adopt PoS if he had idea how well the algorithm is.

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January 14, 2019, 07:20:46 PM
 #29

How to put it.  You Friend's Article has mistakes.

He's not my friend. Most of the mistakes happen probably because he don't know all variant/modification of PoS

PoS nodes will Reorganize to the Longest Chain with the most coins with the highest coin age.
During Reorganization those PoS clients will resend out any coins , as they sync with the new chain.

But then you need to trust node with most coin & highest coin age not to do covert attack such as intentionally didn't include some some transaction or re-org attack, CMIIW.

Quote
PoS protocol designers often go to great lengths to “punish” misbehaving actors. What they don’t consider is the possibility that all nodes act honestly, but there’s a chain split nonetheless!

Again , this is also in error , only Ethereum Casper Protocol is threatening to punish bad nodes, Casper protocol is not yet active and no other coin but etherum designed to use it. All Standard PoS coins only orphan a block but the rewards are still granted later at the interest is recalculated to be higher according to the later stake date, no punishment.

I agree, but i'm pretty sure there are few coins which punish attacker on specific case

Criminals needs to steal many more than 51% to control a PoS network , closer to 90% to match the damage a PoW 51% attacks can accomplish.
Thinking a Criminal will steal the majority of a PoS private keys and then not sell for fiat but just waste time trying to destroy the value of the PoS coin network without pay.
Would be the same as bank robber stealing a million dollars and instead of spending it, he sets its on fire . (So their is literally no profit to this attack, just waste everyone time.)

Even if the criminal can gain 50%+ of coins supply, he can't sell all of them because there's no way anyone make buy order with such volume. Additionally, economy isn't the only reason to launch such attack, politics or ideology are strong reason as well.

If attacker gain 50%+ of coins supply, then it's game over unless with fork which deny attacker power, but in PoW attacker continuously need money to continue 51% attack which is expensive on major coins such as Bitcoin and Ethereum

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January 14, 2019, 09:25:56 PM
 #30

How to put it.  You Friend's Article has mistakes.

He's not my friend. Most of the mistakes happen probably because he don't know all variant/modification of PoS

PoS nodes will Reorganize to the Longest Chain with the most coins with the highest coin age.
During Reorganization those PoS clients will resend out any coins , as they sync with the new chain.

But then you need to trust node with most coin & highest coin age not to do covert attack such as intentionally didn't include some some transaction or re-org attack, CMIIW.

You not trusting single node, you trusting chain with the most coins, which should include multiple nodes, not single node.
No different than trusting PoW chain formed from multiple pools, not single pool.


Criminals needs to steal many more than 51% to control a PoS network , closer to 90% to match the damage a PoW 51% attacks can accomplish.
Thinking a Criminal will steal the majority of a PoS private keys and then not sell for fiat but just waste time trying to destroy the value of the PoS coin network without pay.
Would be the same as bank robber stealing a million dollars and instead of spending it, he sets its on fire . (So their is literally no profit to this attack, just waste everyone time.)

Even if the criminal can gain 50%+ of coins supply, he can't sell all of them because there's no way anyone make buy order with such volume. Additionally, economy isn't the only reason to launch such attack, politics or ideology are strong reason as well.

If attacker gain 50%+ of coins supply, then it's game over unless with fork which deny attacker power, but in PoW attacker continuously need money to continue 51% attack which is expensive on major coins such as Bitcoin and Ethereum

Criminal sell so many, he crash the price , Market responds by lowering price to a point where all ill-gotten gain can be purchased for almost nothing.

Criminal have no incentive to just hold PoS coins, reason being
1. No Profit
2. Risk of getting caught increases the longer he stakes. (More chance to track him)
3. The risk the community makes new fork and nullifies his stolen coins or reverse it , increases.
Holding worst choice criminal can make, time is against him.

If PoW, Criminal stole private keys, never need to mine 1 coin,
Selling give instant profit, and destroy market value for months , years , or forever.
But main point Criminal makes profit.

Let's say Crazy person, want no profit , just want to destroy coin.

In a PoS coin , he need 90% to control a PoS coin like a 51% PoW attack could.
So basically he own whole coin and stop staking , and
PoS coin network just freezes ,
PoS coins holders most likely just fork coin before criminal stole 90% and continue forward.

In a PoW,  Criminal has 51% and blocks all new transactions
Freezing PoW coin, no new transactions.
Price per PoW coin collapses in short time.
PoW community forks coin to new PoW Algorithm to nullify all future attacks by said criminal and continue forward.
[BTC devs already threaten miners with an algorithm switch, if segwit was not activated, miners succumbed to dev's demands.]
 
Either PoS or PoW, when MadMan try and destroy coins and come close to succeeding, both will hard fork to protect themselves.


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January 14, 2019, 10:12:40 PM
 #31

For me I don't know why people still feels POS is the best way to go, the reason most of these new coins are popping up is because they also want to become rich over night and looking at the space we have more than enough coins in the space to serve the entire world. How many national currencies are there in the world, today we have more than 1000 Cryptocurrencies and still counting, and this is why survival of the fitting will dictate who win the top spot in the digital currency space

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