The Decline and Fall of the European Union

[allthingsluxury]

That a single currency, the euro, would fracture rather than unite Europe was understood long before the euro's introduction as legal tender on January 1, 2002. The euro, the currency of 19 of the 28 member states of the European Union, is only one of the various institutions tying the member nations of the European union together, but it is the linchpin of the financial integration touted as one of the primary benefits of EU membership.

Skepticism of the benefits of EU membership is rising, as citizens of the member nations are questioning the surrender of national sovereignty with renewed intensity...


Read the full article here:

https://goldsilvernews.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-decline-and-fall-of-european-union.html

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[stompix]

Yeah, decline and fall...
Like the one the US is experiencing from when I was little.....40 years ago

I clearly remember the Greek crisis, the EU is doomed, Greece is doomed, PIGS...remeber the PIGS....
Zerohedge was printing 20 articles a day, the end is near, the end is near
And ten years have passed and no end.

I find it ironic that you posted this when suddenly the chances of the UK actually remaining in the EU have started to go up

Oh, and from your blog:

Saturday, November 28, 2009
How High can Gold Go?
How High can Gold go? Financial expert, Jim Rickards, says it could go as high as $4000

Sunday, August 29, 2010
Fiat Money to Meet its End

Wednesday, July 27, 2011
The Cat is Out of the Bag, Gold to Soar, Dollar to Crash

You don't know when it's time to give it u, do you?

[kolesozw]

It;s true only until these 'nationalists' need to clean their own toilets or do any other low-qualified job. What do you think is the percentage of French, Germans and UK's in areas like cleaning, truck drivers, seasonal workers for picking up the crops? I can tell you - close to zero. All western countries are highly dependant from non-western workers in too many areas. If UK initialise a 2nd referendum for Brexit, they will never quit. Because after the 2nd, somebody will want 3rd, 4th and so on.

[Lucius]

I clearly remember the Greek crisis, the EU is doomed, Greece is doomed, PIGS...remeber the PIGS....
Zerohedge was printing 20 articles a day, the end is near, the end is near
And ten years have passed and no end.

Do you know how much money EU invest so far to save Greece and Eurozone? More then 5.1 billion € is pumped in that country, and who knows how much more money will go in that direction. If EU did not that, Greece might be the beginning of the end for €, so EU is saving one country to save union not to break down.

UK is never accept € and this was a smart move, one worries less when they finally leave EU. All other countries who who have left their national currencies and introduced € are related and dependent on each other. In my opinion this is more risk then advantage, one country in problems drag all others down.

Also many citizens of EU wants to keep their national currencies, but who ask them what they want - they are forced to use €. Long-term I think the EU has no chance, it is simply an alliance made up of too many different countries most of which have some of their interest, so some of them make union inside union. UK is just first country, but not the last who left EU.

[stompix]

Do you know how much money EU invest so far to save Greece and Eurozone? More then 5.1 billion € is pumped in that country, and who knows how much more money will go in that direction. If EU did not that, Greece might be the beginning of the end for €, so EU is saving one country to save union not to break down.

The point is:
a) Greece hasn't gone bankrupt
b) Greece hasn't left the EU
c) Greece is experiencing economic growth
and

5.1 billion? You realize that the GDP of the EU is 18.7 trillion, right?

Also many citizens of EU wants to keep their national currencies, but who ask them what they want - they are forced to use €.

Define many....
If I run into a guy that wants the old coins back out of 100 I would consider myself lucky
What is so good for having their own currency other than printing as much as they want, which is not something we're to keen on experiencing here on btctalk ?

Oh, and about the Visegrad group, in which my country is also a member
It was established before any of them entered the EU, and the main purpose of it was to coordinate the integration of all 3 (then 4) counties in NATO and EU

[Naida_BR]

Do you know how much money EU invest so far to save Greece and Eurozone? More then 5.1 billion € is pumped in that country, and who knows how much more money will go in that direction. If EU did not that, Greece might be the beginning of the end for €, so EU is saving one country to save union not to break down.

You have clearly no idea about the vision of the European Union. Also, you are not aware of the situation that Greece is going through so far. Greece is to be blamed for its bureaucratic model but the money that was spent in Greece wasn't at the same rate as the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly.

Greece became a cheap place for businesses and many Greeks scientists have left the country and now they work around Central Europe, giving money to companies that operating in the European Union and eventually contributing to the GDP of EU. Mistakes occurred from both sides but before blaming, better see the whole picture.

[LeGaulois]

The point is:
a) Greece hasn't gone bankrupt
b) Greece hasn't left the EU
c) Greece is experiencing economic growth

If Greece hasn't gone bankrupt it's because Europe injected millions in the country. Yes, sure Greece hasn't left the EU, it is because the fishes still have food to eat. When famine comes, the fish will eat in another ocean.
Greece economic growth: it's easy when you still have your parents cleaning your mistakes...

Greece is to be blamed for its bureaucratic model but the money that was spent in Greece wasn't at the same rate as the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly.

Greece became a cheap place for businesses and many Greeks scientists have left the country and now they work around Central Europe, giving money to companies that operating in the European Union and eventually contributing to the GDP of EU. Mistakes occurred from both sides but before blaming, better see the whole picture.

If Greece is to be blamed why the European citizens should pay? when you say "the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly." what are you talking about

[Irvinn]

Conflicts between member states of the European Union will periodically arise. Nobody hoped that everything would be going smoothly. And so, surprisingly, the European Union has existed for about two decades. It is still a completely different state. Here, England wanted to go out, and when they really saw that they were being released, many changed their minds. The European Union offers many advantages, however, and imposes a number of restrictions on the country and its citizens. Here you need to choose and choose carefully.

[Lucius]

The point is:
a) Greece hasn't gone bankrupt
b) Greece hasn't left the EU
c) Greece is experiencing economic growth
and

5.1 billion? You realize that the GDP of the EU is 18.7 trillion, right?

Greece is not gone bankrupt or left EU just because EU decide to save them with money of all EU citizens, if you think 5.1 billion € is nothing, maybe ask yourself how much of that money came from your country. Economic growth of Greece is just a joke, they are buried so deep in their economic disaster that only flow of money from EU keep them alive. Year when Greece can repay debt is set to 2059, so I guees it is little more then 5 billion €.

Define many....
If I run into a guy that wants the old coins back out of 100 I would consider myself lucky
What is so good for having their own currency other than printing as much as they want, which is not something we're to keen on experiencing here on btctalk ?

2010 49% of Germans say they want deutschmark back, and most of people in Europe like their currency more then €. The national currency is part of a national identity and financial independence. € is also printing as needed, same as any other fiat currency.

You have clearly no idea about the vision of the European Union. Also, you are not aware of the situation that Greece is going through so far. Greece is to be blamed for its bureaucratic model but the money that was spent in Greece wasn't at the same rate as the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly.

I know vision of EU, big fish need to eat small ones and take all that is worth of them, and now the most valuable resource are humans. Millions of them left their countries to work in West Europe, building the economy of some other countries but their own.

Greece is lived above all their expectations, their salaries, pensions and extra benefits were above every logic. Now all EU need to pay for that, except few countries which refuse to participate in it.

[stompix]

If Greece hasn't gone bankrupt it's because Europe injected millions in the country. Yes, sure Greece hasn't left the EU, it is because the fishes still have food to eat. When famine comes, the fish will eat in another ocean.
Greece economic growth: it's easy when you still have your parents cleaning your mistakes...

It seems like there is a lot of fish food, 10 years and there is still plenty left even for economic growth.

Greece is not gone bankrupt or left EU just because EU decide to save them with money of all EU citizens, if you think 5.1 billion € is nothing, maybe ask yourself how much of that money came from your country.

Pretty easy, about 10 euros per citizen to save a country...
A frappucino in Warsaw is 5.40 euros.

Economic growth of Greece is just a joke, they are buried so deep in their economic disaster that only flow of money from EU keep them alive. Year when Greece can repay debt is set to 2059, so I guees it is little more then 5 billion €.

But is still growth, the apocalypse didn't happen and it won't.

2010 49% of Germans say they want deutschmark back, and most of people in Europe like their currency more then €. The national currency is part of a national identity and financial independence. € is also printing as needed, same as any other fiat currency.

2010...common
And please tell me the source is not one of those that always paint the euro as the worst thing ever.

The national currency is part of a national identity and financial independence. € is also printing as needed, same as any other fiat currency.

Yeah, funny saying that next to the mark which was barely a century old coin when it got replaced.

I know vision of EU, big fish need to eat small ones and take all that is worth of them, and now the most valuable resource are humans. Millions of them left their countries to work in West Europe, building the economy of some other countries but their own.

Yeah, and those humans are the same that are getting paid and are sending back billions to their country.
1.2 billion in remittances from UK to Poland alone.

Total EU spending in Poland: € 11.921 billion
Total Polish contribution to the EU budget: € 3.048 billion

The evilz EU......

Besides, there is a huge flaw in your view of the EU , you're still thinking in terms of countries, and this should not be done anymore in a true Union.
Nobody should care about the gdp or average wage or minimum wage in a country, we're in an union for a reason.

The worker's migration happens even at the country level, who is moving to Paris and who is moving to Vierzon, you can't stop this and it's against all the things we promote here to do so.
You want another warsaw pact or what?

If a country can't care for its workers why should those there be forced to live in poverty?

Oh, and btw, this stuff

I know vision of EU, big fish need to eat small ones and take all that is worth of them, and now the most valuable resource are humans. 

I've heard it even before the EU. It was part of the Soviet propaganda where evil capitalist states will treat our country as colonies such surprise it turned out to be just propaganda.

[Lucius]

stompix, you like EU and how it works and you should enjoy while it lasts. You are somewhat convinced that the EU provides all the possibilities for your country, how about defense? You country ask USA to come and protect you from Russia, and your country will pay 2$ billion for that. It's a very poor union when countries (not only Poland) ask protection at the other end of the world.

Regarding people want back their national currencies back just use google, but here is article from late 2011, 54% of Germans vote for deutsche mark - do you think that number is smaller or bigger today?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-germany-mark/most-germans-want-deutsche-mark-back-poll-shows-idUSTRE7941M320111005

[stompix]

stompix, you like EU and how it works and you should enjoy while it lasts.

I'll enjoy it till the end. Mine will come first I would say.

You are somewhat convinced that the EU provides all the possibilities for your country, how about defense? You country ask USA  to come and protect you from Russia, and your country will pay 2$ billion for that.

Oh, so it's the fault of the EU we don't want to waste money on an arms race but unfortunately, we have a mad dog at our borders.

This is hilarious.
You were bringing in the whole argument of the EU downfall being 5.1 billion in helping Greece and now you want the EU to spend 500 billions a year on weapons and army.

Regarding people want back their national currencies back just use google, but here is article from late 2011, 54% of Germans vote for deutsche mark - do you think that number is smaller or bigger today?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-germany-mark/most-germans-want-deutsche-mark-back-poll-shows-idUSTRE7941M320111005

One, google "stern magazine'" and even if you don't speak german check the images
Second,

At 67 percent, support for the mark is especially strong in former Communist eastern states, showed the poll.

What I was saying about propaganda...

Third

Forsa questioned 1,001 people between September 28 and 29.

[BestSSS]

Why do you say that based on this article I did not understand..
Difficult times between Europe and the United States began more than a year ago. And who would not say that everything is good between these countries-is deeply mistaken.
The US is far from being stupid and is also trying in every way to weaken the strength of the European Union and the strong currency of the EURO, as their economy also suffers from this. Before the collapse of the European Union and the abolition of the common currency is still very far away, but the constant disputes in the European Union and the desire of many States to separate speaks of tension in some countries. Proof of this is not one held a referendum. This is just the beginning...

[HeRetiK]

Yeah, decline and fall...
Like the one the US is experiencing from when I was little.....40 years ago

I clearly remember the Greek crisis, the EU is doomed, Greece is doomed, PIGS...remeber the PIGS....
Zerohedge was printing 20 articles a day, the end is near, the end is near
And ten years have passed and no end.

To some extend it feels like the EU and the Euro have been pronounced dead or dying almost as often as Bitcoin. In both cases these obituaries seem to come from people with an outside vantage point with little insider experience.


@Lucius:

Granted, many citizens are discontent with the EU government (besides NK, which government has a 100% approval rating anyway?), some may even want their original currencies back, but truth be told the economies of our countries would be rather stifled and constrained without the Euro or the EU. The European nations need to operate in unity if they want to compete even marginally with economic power horses as the US and China. We have many small countries in the EU; if our economic zone would be as fragmented as our local cultures are diverse, growing a business big or small beyond our respective national borders would be harder than it already is.

[1Referee]

To some extend it feels like the EU and the Euro have been pronounced dead or dying almost as often as Bitcoin. In both cases these obituaries seem to come from people with an outside vantage point with little insider experience.

Bitcoin has strong fundamentals, keeps gaining traction, and has the potential to actually become a digital form of Gold or perhaps even a reserve currency, you never know. The EU and the Euro on the other hand, are built on a rotten foundation, and that's something pretty difficult to discard and is rightfully seen as a ticking time bomb.

I do however agree that news outlets and the people who are sucking them off are just reading what they want to read without looking/thinking further, but you can't avoid that. I am holding the majority of my fiat savings in US dollars instead of the Euro, which I am very happy with, because I have little to no faith in the EU as a whole at all.

I hope that it won't happen, but I can't rule out that the Euro may end up dropping well below the US dollar in the forthcoming years. I protected myself in advance just in case it does turn out ot happen.

[HeRetiK]

Bitcoin has strong fundamentals, keeps gaining traction, and has the potential to actually become a digital form of Gold or perhaps even a reserve currency, you never know. The EU and the Euro on the other hand, are built on a rotten foundation, and that's something pretty difficult to discard and is rightfully seen as a ticking time bomb.

Define rotten foundation? The large economies within the EU are fairly solid (ie. Germany and France), most of the smaller ones too, with frictionless trade and freedom of movement enabling growth and skill exchange that otherwise wouldn't be as easily possible. Some countries probably shouldn't have been allowed to join yet (sorry Greece) and there's definitely a lack of an European identity, but apart from that I feel that the good outweights the bad. The refugee crisis would have happened either way. But that's just my point of view, what's yours?

I do however agree that news outlets and the people who are sucking them off are just reading what they want to read without looking/thinking further, but you can't avoid that. I am holding the majority of my fiat savings in US dollars instead of the Euro, which I am very happy with, because I have little to no faith in the EU as a whole at all.

I hope that it won't happen, but I can't rule out that the Euro may end up dropping well below the US dollar in the forthcoming years. I protected myself in advance just in case it does turn out ot happen.

While I don't see the future of the EU and the Euro quite as dim I also hold assets in USD and other fiat currencies as part of a risk diversification strategy. Not the majority in my case though, as I don't trust the USD much more than the EUR and in the end I still have to pay my rent in EUR.

[Lucius]

Oh, so it's the fault of the EU we don't want to waste money on an arms race but unfortunately, we have a mad dog at our borders.

This is hilarious.
You were bringing in the whole argument of the EU downfall being 5.1 billion in helping Greece and now you want the EU to spend 500 billions a year on weapons and army.

How the money invested in defense can be wasted money? Fact is that your country, and some others members of EU literally beg USA to help you defend your boundaries which means you're incapable of doing this by yourself. It would be normal to ask help from Brussels or from Berlin for this matter, but it only show how EU is "united".

I see you stick to that 5 billion €, but truth is that Greece is get much more since they debt is around 300€ billion, so you will need to give up few more frappucino to help them to get out of the mud.

For all the rest makes no sense to write anything else, every information you do not like to read or hear is propaganda.

[stompix]

How the money invested in defense can be wasted money?

I'm really sure that spending 40 million on a fighter plane that cost additional 100k for every hour of flight is a good investment because....Really, what's the ROI on it?

Fact is that your country, and some others members of EU literally beg USA to help you defend your boundaries which means you're incapable of doing this by yourself. It would be normal to ask help from Brussels or from Berlin for this matter, but it only show how EU is "united".

We ask the US for help because we are in an alliance, that is what an alliance is for!!!
If the US is not interested in that alliance good for them, from my point of view I don't give a ****

For all the rest makes no sense to write anything else, every information you do not like to read or hear is propaganda.

Of course, when it's data from 2010 published by a tabloid that had a series of Adolf Hitlers's journal...

To some extend it feels like the EU and the Euro have been pronounced dead or dying almost as often as Bitcoin. In both cases these obituaries seem to come from people with an outside vantage point with little insider experience.

Or people who hate it just because they don't understand or need somebody to shift the blame on
After all, the British voted for Brexit because anything more than a colored buss with 350 printed on it was the limit of understanding.

Haters gonna hate, but the EU is here to stay.

I am holding the majority of my fiat savings in US dollars instead of the Euro, which I am very happy with, because I have little to no faith in the EU as a whole at all.

If either of these two goes down we're *** at so many levels 2008 will look like a happy ending massage

[Halmater]

Although status of European Union is not very promising recently, members of EU have enough power to challenge difficulties that they have now. UK has been causing to a growing crack on EU, but other members show enough commitment to keep EU together and start to assume the responsibilities that UK has not fulfilled.

[Hydrogen]

There may be many direct parallels between the european union and social security in the USA.

Americans have spent the last 5+ decades discussing how social security will fail. The debate is so old, many believe social security will never fail simply because it hasn't happened yet although people have said it will happen for a long time. The basic fundamentals suggest social security is structured poorly in a way that is intrinsically unsustainable. Everytime this harsh reality emerges, and the program becomes insolvent, the state hikes taxes to make the program feasible again. Inevitably sometime in the future we will reach a point where it becomes infeasible to hike taxes further, the program will become unsustainable and collapse. This negative analysis applies to many nation's of the world whose respective governments adopt a pseudo science stance expecting high population growth coupled with expected tax revenue growth as a means to support pension and retirement programs like social security ad infinitum.

They don't name or address any of the real problems. They simply assume if global populations continue to grow @ a high rate, we'll reach a point where successive generations outnumber existing generations enough to cover the insolvency of pension programs like ss. This faulty analysis is further compounded by the potential for machines and robots to kill jobs and further reduce the tax collection potential of individuals to cover the widening wealth gap of pensions.

In terms of fundamental mechanics, many of the negative issues associated with the european union and social security stem from a hard insistence that none of the systemic flaws present should ever be named or addressed.

The european union suffers from a simple systemic flaw: rather than fixing economies or basic problems which contribute to economies being in dire straits, they rely perpetually on bailouts. Wealthy EU nations like great britain perpetually bailout the economies of weaker nation's like greece. None of the real problems ever get fixed. Countries with weak economies drag countries with stronger economies down with them, until eventually everyone is living in poverty.

It might be said that social security and the european union are both ticking economic timebombs. No one can be certain of the date or time these programs will explode causing widespread panic and disorder. But due to the inherent unsustainability of both, it may be inevitable that both will reach insolvency and collapse @ some point in time.