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Author Topic: Red trust on Bestmixer: resolved. Off-topic questions remain, see last post.  (Read 678 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (1 post by 1 user deleted.)
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January 19, 2019, 06:39:45 PM
Last edit: April 14, 2019, 07:19:24 PM by LoyceV
Merited by suchmoon (7), allyouracid (1), xtraelv (1)
 #1

This topic acts as an example for my post in Discussion about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Community values. DT, after reading this:
What I consider not taggable:

Posting an unpopular opinion.



Recently, I saw bestmixer's trust:
Image loading...

User Bestmixer received 3 tags (on the same day) for something he wrote at the end of November.
I must admit I don't know the details of CoinJoin and Wasabi Wallet, but I don't think that's even relevant. This user was asked about Wasabi Wallet (including link to their website) in his own topic, and gave his opinion:
We believe that this method of mixing is a 'failure'.

The main problem of Wasabiwąllet is that EVERYONE knows the incoming address and EVERYONE knows the receiving addresses.
(click the quote for the full post)
7 weeks later, he got -8: -3 / +0. I feel like I must have missed something, but all Reference links point at this post.

Bestmixer's post was a response to a (now deleted) post from Crypto Carabao Group. From my own archives (November 30, 2018, 4:16 AM Dutch time):
Code:
Crypto Carabao Group
2393389
48338279
<a href="https://bitcointalk.org/index.php#3">Economy</a> / <a href="https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=84.0">Service Announcements</a> / <b><a href="https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3140140.msg48338279#msg48338279">Re: &#128227;&#128227;&#128227; [ANN] &#128073; BESTMIXER.IO &#128072; THE FUTURE OF BITCOIN MIXING! TECHNOLOGY IS HERE</a></b>

How is your service better than <a class="ul" href="https://www.wasabiwallet.io/">https://www.wasabiwallet.io/</a> ?<br /><br />Is it just because it can also mix shitcoins?<br /><br />Are there also real-time statistics anywhere about how many BTC BestMixer has mixed so far?<br /><br />Is it also non-custodial like wasabi?<br /><br />Is yours also open-source code? <br />If not, how can we be sure that you are not just a honeypot of the chainalysis companies? Just trust?<br /><br /><br /><br />
This post was made before BestMixer.io vs. Wasabi wallet was opened. I read that post in November, and it sounded quite hostile (please read the raw HTML, last line within the code tags).
Not much more happened in that topic, I'll give a short summary of the next page: another user continues about Wasabi wallet in Bestmixer's topic (and even offers him a job), followed by TheNewAnon135246 (who left red trust on the same day) saying he's a highly respected developer, followed by Bestmixer saying it's unacceptable advertising in his thread.
The response from bestmixer may or may not be true, but I don't think it justifies red tags. Especially after "unsolicited advertising" in his own topic. It looks like someone was looking for a fight, and it's not Bestmixer.

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January 19, 2019, 07:27:58 PM
 #2

Posting lies =/= posting an unpopular opinion. If you can't tag people for blatant lies, then the system loses quite a good share of its purpose. No wonder that so many people are confused about many things TBH.

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January 19, 2019, 07:49:56 PM
 #3

The reason why I left negative feedback is because they are intentionally misleading people by spreading misinformation about CoinJoin/Wasabi, likely to attract more customers to use their centralized mixer.

I would never give negative feedback for someone giving their opinion but what they are doing is intentional and untrustworthy imo.

Furthermore, I did some research after leaving the feedback and I found more dodgy things. You already linked to the Wasabi vs Bestmixer topic but they appear to be tainting other people's coins with dust attacks.

Here is a quote from their website why there is no information about their staff or company:

Quote
In case that is what you're expecting, and if you're disheartened to find that there is no such information for BestMixer.io, please keep the following in mind: In order to continue providing you with the greatest amount of anonymity available in the cryptocurrency space, we need to preserve our anonymity as well...................And, most importantly, since our service is completely anonymous and we are answerable to no one but the client whom we serve, we will do whatever is necessary to keep the confidentiality of every transaction regardless of where in the world they originate from or what the government policies in those countries may be.

So in short: they are fully anonymous, they don't store your data, they aren't registered under any jurisdiction and they answer to nobody.

Now read section 4 and 8 from their ToS: https://bestmixer.io/en/terms

Something is really off about them.





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January 19, 2019, 08:12:17 PM
 #4

Perhaps yes because clearly they give false sense of security and privacy (about CoinJoin & coin mixer)

For example, they claim anyone who uses CoinJoin will get their coins flagged as 'suspect'. While it might be true, anyone who use their mixer could get their flagged as well because there's probability BestMixer coins already tainted.

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January 19, 2019, 08:26:14 PM
 #5

The reason why I left negative feedback is because they are intentionally misleading people by spreading misinformation about CoinJoin/Wasabi, likely to attract more customers to use their centralized mixer.
I would agree, if they would have posted in a Wasabi-topic, but they're posting in their own ANN thread.

Quote
I would never give negative feedback for someone giving their opinion but what they are doing is intentional and untrustworthy imo.
I think it's a very thin line.

Quote
Furthermore, I did some research after leaving the feedback and I found more dodgy things. You already linked to the Wasabi vs Bestmixer topic but they appear to be tainting other people's coins with dust attacks.
I read and discussed the "dust advertising" in their topic at the end of October. This was said to be an advertising campaign. The "tainting" is something anybody can do, and also something you can prevent from your wallet:
This can of course be prevented by manually selecting which inputs to use ("Coin control" in Bitcoin Core, also possible in Electrum and no doubt in many other wallets), but I can imagine not everybody uses it.

Here is a quote from their website why there is no information about their staff or company:
~
So in short: they are fully anonymous, they don't store your data, they aren't registered under any jurisdiction and they answer to nobody.
Isn't that the same for any mixer? Many exchanges are enforcing KYC, because governments demand it. I don't think a mixer can remain anonymous if they have a known office address.

Quote
Now read section 4 and 8 from their ToS: https://bestmixer.io/en/terms
4. Looks to me like a legal disclaimer, hoping they stay off the radar for US authorities. Where I live, many bank accounts have similar requirements: they don't want to be involved in US taxes.
That is a bit weird though when the mixer is anonymous. It looks like it's copied from one of many websites, such as healthmonitor.io.

8. It is getting weirder indeed Shocked They've listed all possible reasons why you would ever want to use a mixer Tongue
It looks like it's copied from Adyen.com
Bitmix.biz and many other sites use the same terms.

I would like to get an answer from Bestmixer about those terms, but none of these were mentioned as the reason for the tags.
Thanks for posting here, at least I know there's more to it than just saying something about Wasabi wallet.

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January 19, 2019, 10:26:45 PM
 #6



quote
... "I would agree, if they would have posted in a Wasabi-topic, but they're posting in their own ANN thread"...
/>

So, it's ok to mislead people on your own thread but not in others?
Isn't it like saying it's not ok to kill someone in the street but you can leisurely do it at home and the windows open


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January 19, 2019, 11:02:08 PM
 #7

quote
... "I would agree, if they would have posted in a Wasabi-topic, but they're posting in their own ANN thread"...
/>

So, it's ok to mislead people on your own thread but not in others?
I responded to this:
~likely to attract more customers~

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February 08, 2019, 08:24:35 AM
 #8

In this thread, three forum members downgraded our trust level [Lauda/TheNewAnon135246/LeGaulois] are trying to justify their opinions and actions.
It would be reasonable if our opinion on this issue also turns out to be here.

All of them referred to the post in our thread here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3140140.msg48348938#msg48348938
Lauda clearly indicated an expression that he was not satisfied with in our post, published in our ANN thread: “The main problem of Wasabiwallet is that EVERYONE knows the incoming address and EVERYONE knows the receiving addresses.” This was followed by a trust downgrade of our project and a comment from Lauda: “Misleading people about a competitor is a weak method to establish a trust. You should also learn how CoinJoin works.”

It would be right to draw the readers' attention to this post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3140140.msg49283193#msg49283193, where highly respected developer Nopara73, a Wasabiwallet (WW) developer, responds to our saying “EVERYONE knows the incoming address and EVERYONE knows the receiving addresses” with the following comment: “Everyone may know the addresses, but....” So it seems like Lauda doesn't quite understand how CoinJoin works. We would advise Lauda to consult highly respected developer Nopara73 why all inputs and outputs are known to everyone when using CoinJoin.

We are engaged in the anonymization of cryptocurrency and we believe that the technology, where everyone knows all the addresses involved in the rounds, can not be effectively used for this purpose. Not because it is easy or difficult to find out who is who after but simply because anyone can find out all the involved addresses regardless of how many inputs and outputs there are. And such a way is very convenient for the work of the Chainalysis since there is no need to collect data because it is already collected and combined to apply the following processing patterns.

LeGaulois edifies “Misleading people about a competitor is a weak method to establish a trust. You should also learn how CoinJoin works.” The categorical nature of this statement regarding our opinion presupposes the only true statement — his personal. Oh, and as for his “also learn how CoinJoin works”, it may be advisable LeGaulois also explore statements of Nopara73 about his product.

TheNewAnon135246 believes that “Spreading lies about Wasabi wallet (and CoinJoin) to make their own centralized mixer look superior, causing potential customers being intentionally mislead.” We would give the same reply as for Lauda.
TheNewAnon135246, it would be nice of you to remove from your post in our thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3140140.msg49283746#msg49283746 a link to WW because to place a hidden advertisement in someone else's thread is at least not polite, even when it is disguised as a respected project the official Github.

We hope you [Lauda/TheNewAnon135246/LeGaulois] have found here the answers you weren't looking for…
Thanks to your actions, the attitude of some members to the red trust has changed. That’s a pity.

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February 08, 2019, 08:53:03 AM
Last edit: February 08, 2019, 09:32:33 AM by TheNewAnon135246
Merited by LoyceV (1), tmfp (1)
 #9

I changed my negative feedback to a neutral feedback a few days ago because I revised my decision (edit: updated the feedback description/ref link). I am not going to delete my post (or parts of it). Feel free to report it to a moderator if you feel that it breaks forum rules.

While you are replying here, I checked out your website and I found some contradictions on it:

Quote
We want to be free on the Internet. All of our rights and obligations are based on the principles of crypto-democracy which we have to form together with you.

Quote
Owing to blockchain technology which ensures trust between us and the client without the need for any third party intervention or mediating government agency, we ultimately have no need of registering in the pursuit of keeping anonymity and freedom alive on the internet.

Quote
And, most importantly, since our service is completely anonymous and we are answerable to no one but the client whom we serve, we will do whatever is necessary to keep the confidentiality of every transaction regardless of where in the world they originate from or what the government policies in those countries may be.

Your terms of service says otherwise:







Could you explain why you are claiming to offer fully anonimity and freedom, answer to no one/government policies and serve customers from anywhere in the world while your terms of service basically forbids every reason why someone would want to use a mixer?

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February 08, 2019, 10:09:54 AM
 #10


TheNewAnon135246, your question does not correspond to the topic of this thread.

Also, it does not explain the reasons for your comment on How CoinJoin works here "Posts misinformation about Wasabi wallet (and CoinJoin) to make their own centralized mixer look superior..." since it looks more like your personal opinion which can be expressed in the post but not by red trust.

Your comment may mislead some members of the forum and eloquently demonstrates your misconception of WW work too (see post above).

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February 08, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
 #11


TheNewAnon135246, your question does not correspond to the topic of this thread.

Also, it does not explain the reasons for your comment on How CoinJoin works here "Posts misinformation about Wasabi wallet (and CoinJoin) to make their own centralized mixer look superior..." since it looks more like your personal opinion which can be expressed in the post but not by red trust.

Your comment may mislead some members of the forum and eloquently demonstrates your misconception of WW work too (see post above).

Quote
Wasabiwąllet is a good solution only for its creator, not for its customers.

BestMixer is better because we understand how blockchain analysis works and we know how to protect our customers' anonymity

This is just a biased opinion. Also claiming that closed source > open source shows that you don't understand that Wasabi is a trustless mixer. Closed source means nobody can verify that you're not storing customer data, which brings me to my other posts. Could you elaborate on my question regarding your ToS?

EDIT: And as I stated before, my feedback is neutral so it doesn't affect your trust rating.

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February 08, 2019, 05:06:50 PM
 #12


TheNewAnon135246, our opposing views can be considered biased against each other with equal probability.

Perhaps your second question will find its answer later when members Lauda and LeGaulois react to the main question of this thread regarding the red trust.


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February 08, 2019, 09:36:40 PM
Last edit: February 08, 2019, 10:05:57 PM by LeGaulois
 #13

Unless you buy a yellow vest and write on it "Wasabi wallet" and take a selfy I won't remove anything

It's not an opinion it's a fact. If it would have been a positive feedback you wouldn't have said it's a biased opinion. What about if I do the same for let's say 1 week, just to see what you will say, then we re-start to talk?

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February 11, 2019, 04:22:44 PM
 #14


TheNewAnon135246, our opposing views can be considered biased against each other with equal probability.

Perhaps your second question will find its answer later when members Lauda and LeGaulois react to the main question of this thread regarding the red trust.



So you're not willing to address why you are falsely advertising with total anonymity and government independence?

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February 13, 2019, 01:02:25 AM
Merited by suchmoon (4), DarkStar_ (4), ETFbitcoin (3), LoyceV (1)
 #15

Hi all, another Wasabi Wallet developer here.

I think all this about the Red trust is because Bestmixer, after some user asked about Wasabi wallet in their thread, instead of making some technical comparison with pros and cons simply chose to lie about its competitor. Bestmixer could make the technical comparison and even when it is not something easy to do, I mean, comparing a trustful custodial closed-sourced service (BestMixer) vs. a trustless non-custodial open-sourced service (Wasabi wallet), IMO that would have being the best thing to do.

Quote
We would advise Lauda to consult highly respected developer Nopara73 why all inputs and outputs are known to everyone when using CoinJoin.   

I am not nopara73 but the answer to this so trivial that I would like to answer it, okay? All the inputs and the outputs are known because all the transactions in the blockchain are public. There are no bitcoin transactions where the inputs and/or outputs are unknown. That's not the point, the point is that when you trace a coin back and you hit a coinjoin transaction you know you are fucked because there is no way to continue tracing the money back. It would be good to know what technique Bestmixed uses but I am afraid it is a very very top secret.

I really don't like to write these kind of things at all, I would like to work in peace and that Bestmixer team make their business in peace too but to achieve that we all need they stop lying.

Best wishes. 
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April 14, 2019, 07:18:40 PM
 #16

All 3 red tags has been removed, and replaced by 2 neutral tags:
Image loading...
With that, this thread has served it's purpose, and I'll lock it.



However, many questions that didn't really belong in this topic are still unanswered:

Exhibit A
Here is a quote from their website why there is no information about their staff or company:
~
So in short: they are fully anonymous, they don't store your data, they aren't registered under any jurisdiction and they answer to nobody.
Isn't that the same for any mixer? Many exchanges are enforcing KYC, because governments demand it. I don't think a mixer can remain anonymous if they have a known office address.

Quote
Now read section 4 and 8 from their ToS: https://bestmixer.io/en/terms
4. Looks to me like a legal disclaimer, hoping they stay off the radar for US authorities. Where I live, many bank accounts have similar requirements: they don't want to be involved in US taxes.
That is a bit weird though when the mixer is anonymous. It looks like it's copied from one of many websites, such as healthmonitor.io.

8. It is getting weirder indeed Shocked They've listed all possible reasons why you would ever want to use a mixer Tongue
It looks like it's copied from Adyen.com
Bitmix.biz and many other sites use the same terms.

I would like to get an answer from Bestmixer about those terms
(this was ignored by Bestmixer)

Exhibit B
I checked out your website and I found some contradictions on it:

Quote
We want to be free on the Internet. All of our rights and obligations are based on the principles of crypto-democracy which we have to form together with you.

Quote
Owing to blockchain technology which ensures trust between us and the client without the need for any third party intervention or mediating government agency, we ultimately have no need of registering in the pursuit of keeping anonymity and freedom alive on the internet.

Quote
And, most importantly, since our service is completely anonymous and we are answerable to no one but the client whom we serve, we will do whatever is necessary to keep the confidentiality of every transaction regardless of where in the world they originate from or what the government policies in those countries may be.

Your terms of service says otherwise:







Could you explain why you are claiming to offer fully anonimity and freedom, answer to no one/government policies and serve customers from anywhere in the world while your terms of service basically forbids every reason why someone would want to use a mixer?
(BestMixer responded but ignored the (off-topic) question:)

TheNewAnon135246, your question does not correspond to the topic of this thread.

Perhaps your second question will find its answer later when members Lauda and LeGaulois react to the main question of this thread regarding the red trust.

I would still like to have these questions answered, but it shouldn't be in this topic anymore. I'll leave this topic unlocked to allow use of the quote button in case someone wants to create a new thread.

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April 14, 2019, 09:03:50 PM
 #17

If someone committed a crime in Mexico City, if you are aware of this, and help the criminal hide the fact they were in Mexico City on the date of the crime, you are an accessory after the fact, and are breaking the law. If you are helping someone who did not break any law hide the fact they were on Mexico City on April 12, you are not doing anything wrong.

To me, it looks like Bestmixer is trying to prevent themselves from breaking the law, and getting into trouble with the authorities. They also probably are trying to avoid being subjected to jurisdiction by US regulators.

Having "freedom" does not mean someone is free to do anything they want, even if it is harmful to others. I would define it as not being subjected to arbitrary rules that only protect you from yourself, or do not protect anyone at all.

I am not inclined to create a new thread regarding the subject. I do not believe any of this makes Bestmixer untrustworthy, if anything it makes them more trustworthy because they are showing some kind of effort to not deliver coins associated with past bad activity to their customers.

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April 17, 2019, 01:25:11 PM
 #18

They said they would answer my questions once everyone had removed their negative trust. I'll PM them shortly if they do not reply in this thread.

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