The war with Russia: can we end it? Do we want to?

[suchmoon]

This thread is a continuation of my post here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49322618#msg49322618

I would like to have a healthy discussion on what we can do to de-escalate the conflict that shouldn't have existed in the first place. As I mentioned in the post linked above we can start by supporting the good guys in the Russian community. Any ideas of how to do that or other constructive suggestions are welcome.

Any personal disputes/insults as well as posts violating forum rules will be deleted at my discretion. Some users are not welcome here - you know who you are.

[1714918527]

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[actmyname]

One core issue is that some users have decided to take the situation personally.

The negative ratings that have been given out as a part of the debacle (i.e. in relation to the Russian exclusion threads) in order to discourage the exclusions of DefaultTrust appear to have only accelerated the process. This is a negative spiral.

On the local end of things, the community is indignant. They seem to feel that the current system is pitted against them and further conclude this with the assortment of negative feedback being given out to some Russian users.Constructive dialogue will bring forth enlightenment to both sides, which is why I extended an invitation thereof.

[suchmoon]

the community is indignant

I believe this is way too broad. If you have some basis for this I'd like to know. I have a different opinion after spending some time on the Russian board over the last few days. There is certainly some resentment about some of the recent actions targeting Russian members, which is why I believe it would make sense to reverse or counter-act them. That could get a reasonable conversation started.

We can't and won't get everyone to love us. They have their own Quicksellers. But we need to be reasonably consistent at the very least. Talking about DT inclusions/exclusions is not a crime over here and it shouldn't be a crime when it's done over there. Same with being misguided/misinformed/mistaken - there are many Russian users who'd be happy to learn but sadly we're paying attention to loudmouths for obvious reasons.

[actmyname]

the community is indignant

I believe this is way too broad. If you have some basis for this I'd like to know

I should specify that to "the vocal community in Meta".

There is certainly some resentment about some of the recent actions targeting Russian members, which is why I believe it would make sense to reverse or counter-act them. That could get a reasonable conversation started.

I agree.

We can't and won't get everyone to love us. They have their own Quicksellers. But we need to be reasonably consistent at the very least. Talking about DT inclusions/exclusions is not a crime over here and it should[n't]^? be a crime when it's done over there.

That's the problem, of course. At least for the ones that have replied in the Meta thread about the Russian DT0 reforms, they have a strong distrust of several current-DT1 members.

Same with being misguided/misinformed/mistaken - there are many Russian users who'd be happy to learn but sadly we're paying attention to loudmouths for obvious reasons.

It would be great to conduct some civil discourse.

[The Cryptovator]

If I am not wrong, problem started from Alex_Sr. He was added by TMAN, but unfortunately Alex_Sr left few positive feedback. I didn't knew Alex_Sr before added on DT. Then someone mentioned about his feedback's on meta thread and TMAN remove him. Then he revised his feedback's and TMAN was re-add him but some other DT1 exclude him. Then TMAN made few investigation and he found thread on Russian board. Eventually TMAN also exclude Alex_Sr and opened a tread regarding Russian board abuse. TMAN also not wrong with his statement
What I noticed from marlboroza reply, there is open discussion about inclusion and exclusion. They have exclude all reputed DT1 and publish openly which is look wrong to me. However I didn't notice that anything much wrong on Alex_Sr discussion.

I don't know how this war will be end. Because they are against most of reputed current DT1 and they strongly stand against them which I noticed from this post . They also using bad language for suchmoon who is encourage to solve the issue. So how you can solve that problem? They just want manipulate DT1 from Russian board and exclude old DT1 who have tagged them, and obviously they will tag back when they will become DT1.

Since adding DT1 is not possible right now, so it would be better add some DT2 from Russian board who deserve it. If we exclude all of from Russian board then war not going to stop.

Part of this issue is that the majority of those guys don’t understand DT are not active in meta and don’t tag actively - what’s the point of members like that being on DT?

To be honest, they want to make their own network and tag back who have tagged them. Obviously there is no point to add them who is not active and not actively tagging scammers.

[TMAN]

I would like this sorted in a sensible way. They need representation on DT as I wanted in the 1st place by adding alex, if they would realise that and step back a little we could move forward and sort this out sensibly.

Part of this issue is that the majority of those guys don’t understand DT are not active in meta and don’t tag actively - what’s the point of members like that being on DT?

[Lauda]

This is my only comment on this situation for the time being:

You set a negative trust without undeniable evidence and cannot explain your position. For a year there has been no dialogue. DT is needed to protect forum against scammers, alts and bots, not for express your personal opinion about someone. You have abused your power and compromised DT.
-snip-

-snip-

Good luck with this, you will need it. He's talking about peloso I believe.

This is also me trying very hard not to be insulting given the absurd way this is being handled by them. The two moderators should be helping de-escalating from the other side, but they have always been useless.

[LoyceV]

If I am not wrong, problem started from Alex_Sr. He was added by TMAN, but unfortunately Alex_Sr left few positive feedback. I didn't knew Alex_Sr before added on DT. Then someone mentioned about his feedback's on meta thread and TMAN remove him. Then he revised his feedback's and TMAN was re-add him but some other DT1 exclude him. Then TMAN made few investigation and he found thread on Russian board. Eventually TMAN also exclude Alex_Sr and opened a tread regarding Russian board abuse.

If it started with Alex_Sr, that means I caused "war with Russia":

It feels like DT has much more inflation that Bitcoin at the moment. Take Alex_Sr's Sent feedback for example: he started sending green trust the moment he was on put on DT. Look at his feedback on DabLjat:

Expert on trust issues and active user!

Let me focus on the last 2 words: "active user". The account is 7 months young, has 104 posts, and (who would have thought!) he too started dropping green and red trust the same day!

I've been away since I was put on DT1, and I have a lot of reading to do to catch up, but my first impression is that there's already a circle jerk even more controversy when certain accounts suddenly leave each other trust and add each other to their trust list. And just like the hostile takeover I described, a dozen users can easily add all of them on DT, and turn all of them to +110 (after 10 months).

After this post, Alex_Sr was quickly excluded by a few users, and currently has an equal number of inclusions and exclusions, which means he's back on DT2 already.

I explained my reasoning here:

If leaving such feedback is a problem-tell me: "Bro is a problem!" and I will not leave such feedback!

As I wrote earlier I am still very inexperienced in matters of trust, but I'm learning fast

First: it's nothing personal. I've seen good posts from you, and although there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced when it comes to trust, I don't think you should have your first trial run when you're on DT.

It's not about sending you a PM, which indeed I could have done. You should be able to stand strong when you leave feedback. If you're wrong occasionally, it is of course good to change it when needed, but the majority of your feedback should hold strong. That also means you shouldn't just delete them the moment someone disagrees, you should be able to back it up. And if you can't, that means you shouldn't have left the feedback in the first place.

Deleting the ~dozen positive feedbacks you've left shows you're willing to learn and improve, but it also shows you couldn't make the right decision on your own.

And here:

Reference post: Why have I excluded members on my trust list?
~Alex_Sr
Right after being on DT2, he left positive trust to the many users he seems to like, and deleted it after being excluded. Apparently being on DT is more important than leaving accurate ratings. He is "still very inexperienced in matters of trust".
Reminder for myself: review this one somewhere in the future (weeks/months)

A week ago, Alex_Sr has included these users:

Code:

Alex_Sr->theymos
Alex_Sr->Vod
Alex_Sr->hilariousandco
Alex_Sr->suchmoon
Alex_Sr->xandry
Alex_Sr->hilariousetc
Alex_Sr->LoyceV
Alex_Sr->The Pharmacist
Alex_Sr->krogothmanhattan
Alex_Sr->DdmrDdmr
Alex_Sr->Nikisa

Yesterday, he included nobody. My guess/hope is that this means he's re-evaluating his stance on DT, and I'm curious to see the result.

Thanks for trying to mediate suchmoon!

In case there is any doubt: I have nothing against Russians, and all Russians I've met are nice people.

What scares me for the future of DT, is that Alex_Sr was only an example, which I found by coincidence looking into a small fraction of DT. I still haven't had the time to do a much more in-depth analysis of DT, but I kinda expect many more cases like this in the future.

[marlboroza]

I excluded accounts who excluded members without any specific reason and/or included accounts with such lists and/or included accounts which have scammers and trolls in their lists:

~peloso
~MaoChao
~WhiteManWhite
~TheFuzzStone
~xenon131
~Goran_
~3meek
~Polkeins
~taikuri13
~madnessteat
~DabLjat
~Rooivalk

I included xandry few days ago and Alex_Sr yesterday.

I might remove ~ from some accounts but this is not possible if you have accounts with bad trust lists in your trust network.

[o_e_l_e_o]

As noted by xenon131, there are very sensible and productive conversations going on in the Russian forum right now:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096402.msg49326422#msg49326422
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fbitcointalk.org%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D5096402.msg49326422%23msg49326422 (English Google Translation)

They are essentially in agreement that thinks have got out of hand, and are looking to start over. They are talking about removing all the red trust they have given, deciding on a spokesman/representative, and forming a list of issues they would like addressed. It's also interesting that they have also identified peloso (who seemed to start this whole thing off) as not representative of them on the whole: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096402.msg49329252#msg49329252.

I think it would only be fair to also remove our red trust from users like taikuri13 and xenon131, in an effort to wipe the slate clean and start again constructively.

[mikeywith]

I think current DT members should to re-think some of their ratings.

whatever is happening now is more or less people protesting , while there could be a "gang" that is trying to take over the whole trust system, they will most certainly never be able do anything without the support of the masses.

i know the majority of complains come from scammer being tagged by DT members, but there is a very good amount of people who are tagged for silly reasons.

if we focus the rating on scammers only, then it will always be a war against scammers and nothing else, but for the time being, it's scammers , trolls, freaks, some decent members, and lastly the Russians ( are against DT) i expect to see more of this coming.

I think one of the main reasons why they are excluding DT members is the fact that they always feel insecure as the they could be tagged for any reason a DT member can think of which can be as silly as the word "lemon" , not trying to bring this off-topic but we really need to "agree" on certain rules regarding the trust system to prevent such issues from rising in the first place.

also among the active Russian members I think " Alex_Sr" is a very reasonable guy that could start the peacemaking.

[suchmoon]

I might remove ~ from some accounts but this is not possible if you have accounts with bad trust lists in your trust network.

I think a better approach would be to exclude those "accounts with bad trust lists" directly rather than exclude the person's "sponsor". I bet there are some questionable characters in many DT2 members' networks if we look two levels down (DT3/DT4 essentially).

I think it would only be fair to also remove our red trust from users like taikuri13 and xenon131, in an effort to wipe the slate clean and start again constructively.

I think any red trust posted as a result of TMAN's thread needs to go. If there is another, legitimate reason for it - needs to be specified and referenced properly. "Collusion" is BS. We all "collude" in Meta all day long. I just "colluded" with marlboroza above on how I think a trust list can be built and he's probably gonna disagree with me anyway - that's pretty much exactly what was going on in that Russian thread that triggered most of those red trusts.

should[n't]^?

Thanks. That's a nasty-ass typo to make in an important statement

That's the problem, of course. At least for the ones that have replied in the Meta thread about the Russian DT0 reforms, they have a strong distrust of several current-DT1 members.

Let's ignore them. Their exclusions mean nothing and they can do their DT0 thing but unless theymos applies it by default to all accounts it won't get anywhere. On the other hand, reasonable users advocating for custom trust lists should be respected and supported as long as we agree on what the purpose of the trust system is and how it should be used (e.g. no ratings/inclusions for merely "nice people").

[marlboroza]

I think a better approach would be to exclude those "accounts with bad trust lists" directly rather than exclude the person's "sponsor". I bet there are some questionable characters in many DT2 members' networks if we look two levels down (DT3/DT4 essentially).

Trust lists at the moment:

MaoChao https://prnt.sc/m9oc8x
Polkeins https://prnt.sc/m9ofxk
madnessteat https://prnt.sc/m9og7t
taikuri13 https://prnt.sc/m9odf8
*Goran_ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49313164#msg49313164
*TheFuzzStone https://prnt.sc/m9ocq6
*Rooivalk https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49313164#msg49313164
*Whitemanwhite http://prntscr.com/m9oi4i
*DabLjat http://prntscr.com/m9ojez
*3meek http://prntscr.com/m9okfl
*peloso http://prntscr.com/m9ojpm has loan scammer in trust list connected to pinkman and other account farmers and loan scammers
*xenon131 - had quickseller in trust list https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49293205#msg49293205

I will reconsider removing ~ from few accounts. * will very likely remain excluded.

We all "collude" in Meta all day long. I just "colluded" with marlboroza above on how I think a trust list can be built and he's probably gonna disagree with me anyway - that's pretty much exactly what was going on in that Russian thread that triggered most of those red trusts.

Yes, but what if I had quickseller(xenon131) in my list(hypothetically speaking)? Would you vote for me then and put me into your trust list, or anyone else? I don't think so.

These accounts actually did this, they added someone who had quickseller to their trust list. And some accounts excluded some other accounts for unknown reasons.

And, for the record, I don't agree with -ve.

[VINSIN]

Fun fact, once a few months ago I was about to a trade with an account and the buyer was russian. He used as escrow a legendary member active in their forum area.

I have the normal settings of trust and he told me the user is green trusted and escrows accounts. Whatever I go check his profile and it was neutral, nothing impressing.

But actually I figured out that all of them have different trust settings as so between them their trust is only visible. Literally from +42 to 0 neutral is a difference.

I didn't make a lot of sense in my post now but hopefuly you get my point.

I am not agree with these facts.

[suchmoon]

Yes, but what if I had quickseller(xenon131) in my list(hypothetically speaking)? Would you vote for me then and put me into your trust list, or anyone else? I don't think so.

I have a feeling some of these users included Quickseller (and even cryptohunter) out of spite due to their vocal opposition to Lauda and TMAN. I don't think they actually trust Quickseller's or cryptohunter's judgement. Granted that's not a good use of the trust system, but someone including someone who's including Quickseller probably can be forgiven in this context. Another thing to consider is that there are three degrees of "severity" in these actions:

1) including someone
2) not including someone
3) excluding someone

So in your example - perhaps I wouldn't include you but I wouldn't exclude you either (#2). Excluding Quicksy is enough.

[bitmover]

I believe this green trust giveaway in Russia local board is working just like the merit giveaways there.

Russia board always circulated much more merit than any other local board. Not only because of the high activity there, but I believe people there are more willing to help his fellow Russian companions.

[actmyname]

you publish here our trust list so you tryin to manipulate?

It is public information.

[TMAN]

you publish here our trust list so you tryin to manipulate?

No one gives a shit what you think, you are trying to cause trouble and aren't even Russian - whats the issue? why are you trying to cause the great bitcoin cold war?

[actmyname]

No one gives a shit what you think, you are trying to cause trouble and aren't even Russian - whats the issue? why are you trying to cause the great bitcoin cold hot war?

FTFY. Cold war had more indirect attacks.

[marlboroza]

you publish here our trust list so you tryin to manipulate?

Stop twisting things.
You are the one who has tried to manipulate and caused all this mess.

Why did you edit post #47 http://archive.is/yNmaO#selection-15740.17-15813.14 ?

What happened to post #54 http://archive.is/yNmaO#selection-18345.23-18345.44 ?

#47 - edited 20. January
#54 - removed