Screwed up by Livecoin

[cellard]

Imagine that you send some bitcoins to Livecoin to buy some altcoin that you were interested in, did some trading, found some profit, increased bitcoin count. Very nice, but here is the problem: Turns out Livecoin deletes all of your trading history every 15 days. I realized this when it was too late because the fuckers put it on tiny fonts somewhere where it's not that visible. Now I have lost the trading, so if I wanted to sell the bitcoins that were obtain through the trades in there for fiat and they asked for details, I wouldn't have said details since stupid Livecoin apparently thinks deleting people's trading history is a good idea.

What would be your options if this happened and you were saving money to buy property? It would suck not being able to sell your trading gains. I would be worried to simply tell the truth, that the trading history is lost, because they don't really care about the truth, if you have nothing to show to prove the funds are from legit origin there is a risk they screw you up. Any ideas?

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[gentlemand]

Take a screen shot of the deposit and withdrawal addresses, find a link or email from them outlining this policy, put in your best guess for the trades.

That's all anyone can do. You haven't done anything wrong.

[anu1908]

Is there any chance that Livecoin keep the history for themselves? I never know this too even though I've used them before. Sounds like a bad place to trade but a nice place to launder money now.

[cellard]

Take a screen shot of the deposit and withdrawal addresses, find a link or email from them outlining this policy, put in your best guess for the trades.

That's all anyone can do. You haven't done anything wrong.

Yeah, I have the email posts for withdraw and deposits, even for dead exchanges which is an even bigger problem (I lost my trading history on some other dead exchanges, who doesn't remember Cryptsy and so on). I lost access to the email account but recently I was able to luckily get back to it and I have all the emails.

Anyway the big problem is, there is no info regarding trades. Just money in and money out the exchange. I think thy will ask for trading history. I know I did nothing wrong, however governments don't care, generally they want everything and you are risking big fines for every wrong bit of data you give. Im afraid they could use this to f*ck me up when I attempt to cash out gains with incomplete trading history. In some countries they are really strict with this. I would really like to know if someone has been in the same situation and how it went when they tried to cash out bitcoins with incomplete history when it comes to trading the tracing back all the gains.

[gentlemand]

Anyway the big problem is, there is no info regarding trades. Just money in and money out the exchange. I think thy will ask for trading history. I know I did nothing wrong, however governments don't care, generally they want everything and you are risking big fines for every wrong bit of data you give. Im afraid they could use this to f*ck me up when I attempt to cash out gains with incomplete trading history. In some countries they are really strict with this. I would really like to know if someone has been in the same situation and how it went when they tried to cash out bitcoins with incomplete history when it comes to trading the tracing back all the gains.

If you demonstrate you've made the effort to estimate I can't see them having a problem with that. I would've made the exact same assumption about the exchange maintaining a trade history. I'm pretty sure every single other one does. Point to their policy in not keeping histories, point to your best guesses, point to the large amount of money you're trying to give them.

It's not as if you'll be off to Guantanamo.

[squatter]

What would be your options if this happened and you were saving money to buy property? It would suck not being able to sell your trading gains. I would be worried to simply tell the truth, that the trading history is lost, because they don't really care about the truth, if you have nothing to show to prove the funds are from legit origin there is a risk they screw you up. Any ideas?

Screw you up, how? Where do you live that this is actually an issue?

Money laundering pertains to illegally obtained money; tax evasion pertains to nonpayment of taxes. Not having trading history from Livecoin = neither. What exactly are you worried about?

Not only do you have deposit and withdrawal transactions on a public blockchain that match your holdings, but your government would never obtain that trading data from Livecoin anyway, so your whole question seems moot. Most people would just make up trading history that matches their deposit and withdrawal. Nobody would ever know the difference and there is no proof in the world that could refute your tax return.

I know I did nothing wrong, however governments don't care, generally they want everything and you are risking big fines for every wrong bit of data you give. Im afraid they could use this to f*ck me up when I attempt to cash out gains with incomplete trading history. In some countries they are really strict with this.

Give some examples of how "you are risking big fines" if you pay the correct taxes due. In what countries are they "really strict with this" and do you actually live in one of those countries? You only need to worry about where you live.

In the US, you merely need to make a good faith effort.

[cellard]

What would be your options if this happened and you were saving money to buy property? It would suck not being able to sell your trading gains. I would be worried to simply tell the truth, that the trading history is lost, because they don't really care about the truth, if you have nothing to show to prove the funds are from legit origin there is a risk they screw you up. Any ideas?

Screw you up, how? Where do you live that this is actually an issue?

Money laundering pertains to illegally obtained money; tax evasion pertains to nonpayment of taxes. Not having trading history from Livecoin = neither. What exactly are you worried about?

Not only do you have deposit and withdrawal transactions on a public blockchain that match your holdings, but your government would never obtain that trading data from Livecoin anyway, so your whole question seems moot. Most people would just make up trading history that matches their deposit and withdrawal. Nobody would ever know the difference and there is no proof in the world that could refute your tax return.

I know I did nothing wrong, however governments don't care, generally they want everything and you are risking big fines for every wrong bit of data you give. Im afraid they could use this to f*ck me up when I attempt to cash out gains with incomplete trading history. In some countries they are really strict with this.

Give some examples of how "you are risking big fines" if you pay the correct taxes due. In what countries are they "really strict with this" and do you actually live in one of those countries? You only need to worry about where you live.

In the US, you merely need to make a good faith effort.

Im not from the US, and in other countries you must prove that the funds are from licit origin. If I don't have the trading history, im not sure how I could prove it.

And Livecoin is at least still a working exchange. I have similar problems with other exchange. For instance, Mintpal, I lost the trading history and the exchange doesn't even exist anymore. I may or not have the emails for that one... im not sure what email I used to register in there. Im just very upset about this. I have no knowledge of previous experiences of people in my place in my country, so I don't really know what to expect.

In the US it seems it's different. In many European countries you must prove with proof that the money isn't coming from drugs and stuff. Im just not so sure about claiming something vague may cut it, otherwise everyone on the darknet would present some argument about how these coins come from trading in dead exchange or whatever.

There's also the problem of mixed coins. I once mixed some coins just to test, then I realized if I wanted to sell these coins, im not sure if it would be a good idea.

I need past precedents on the same situation to see what's going on when you are caught up in this situation. It's not a good idea to experiment in this field of being a testing ragdoll for the government's take on crypto taxes.

[squatter]

Im not from the US, and in other countries you must prove that the funds are from licit origin. If I don't have the trading history, im not sure how I could prove it.

Could you give some examples? Laws, guidance from tax authorities, things like that?

Your Livecoin trading history is just a spreadsheet from a dodgy foreign company. It's not really "proof" of anything. It's not an official tax document, so I don't see why you're dwelling on it.

I have no knowledge of previous experiences of people in my place in my country, so I don't really know what to expect.

Maybe you should ask for very generic guidance from your tax authority. No reason to give them details, but just general guidance about what to do.

In the US it seems it's different. In many European countries you must prove with proof that the money isn't coming from drugs and stuff.

This still doesn't sound right. Maybe if you were more specific about where you live, this could be proven or disproven.

There's also the problem of mixed coins. I once mixed some coins just to test, then I realized if I wanted to sell these coins, im not sure if it would be a good idea.

It sounds like you might be afraid of your own shadow.

The mixed coins are still your coins. You did nothing illicit. If you want to lose your private keys and donate the coins to the rest of us, feel free.

I need past precedents on the same situation to see what's going on when you are caught up in this situation. It's not a good idea to experiment in this field of being a testing ragdoll for the government's take on crypto taxes.

You might be waiting a while.

[gentlemand]

In the US it seems it's different. In many European countries you must prove with proof that the money isn't coming from drugs and stuff. Im just not so sure about claiming something vague may cut it, otherwise everyone on the darknet would present some argument about how these coins come from trading in dead exchange or whatever.

Millions of people pay taxes on money with the shakiest and most obscure origins imaginable. 99 times out of 100 the tax man doesn't give a shit. The US tax man is infinitely more anal and aggressive than any other tax authority in the world.

Since it's now too late for you to do anything about this what's the point in fretting about it? Either spend the rest of your life sobbing at your unmovable wallet balance or just get on with it and hope for the best.

[cellard]

In the US it seems it's different. In many European countries you must prove with proof that the money isn't coming from drugs and stuff. Im just not so sure about claiming something vague may cut it, otherwise everyone on the darknet would present some argument about how these coins come from trading in dead exchange or whatever.

Millions of people pay taxes on money with the shakiest and most obscure origins imaginable. 99 times out of 100 the tax man doesn't give a shit. The US tax man is infinitely more anal and aggressive than any other tax authority in the world.

Since it's now too late for you to do anything about this what's the point in fretting about it? Either spend the rest of your life sobbing at your unmovable wallet balance or just get on with it and hope for the best.

Im not really going to say exactly where im from, but generally across Europe most of the time you need to give proof that the funds are from licit origin in a way that makes sense. Some bullshit incomplete data may backfire or not, which is a reason for me to wait and look for past precedents to see how exactly went, what authorities asked for and so on. Im not in a hurry to sell a single satoshi anyway.

From what I've heard in US as long as you pay they don't really ask that much about it, or at least what was my impression reading experiences here.

The taxman will 100% give a shit if you are selling $100k+ worth of bitcoin so you better have all the documentation ready that proves it comes from legit activity.

[gentlemand]

From what I've heard in US as long as you pay they don't really ask that much about it, or at least what was my impression reading experiences here.

The taxman will 100% give a shit if you are selling $100k+ worth of bitcoin so you better have all the documentation ready that proves it comes from legit activity.

That's not what I've heard about the IRS. They're more vituperative than any other tax authority in the world.

I'm in the UK. In Britain tax is taken on trust. You give them your calculations and cough up. I've never known anyone to be questioned on it or asked for actual details though I'm sure it happens occasionally.

Either sit on your crypto forever or go for it. Those are your only choices.

In my own case I'm sure there are a few bits and bobs I can no longer account for. I'll give them my best guess when the time comes. If they have a problem with it I'll expect them to prove I've done wrong somehow. I can't so they can't.

[figmentofmyass]

In my own case I'm sure there are a few bits and bobs I can no longer account for. I'll give them my best guess when the time comes. If they have a problem with it I'll expect them to prove I've done wrong somehow. I can't so they can't.

that's my general take too. in most cases, the tax authorities will have precious little information to contradict what you give them. altcoin exchanges are not like your employer; they're not even like a regulated broker. there is no tax reporting, period. if your taxes properly account for what you cashed out in the end, who's going to know or care enough to disprove you?

the OP makes it sound like paying your taxes involves a police interrogation.

[cellard]

In my own case I'm sure there are a few bits and bobs I can no longer account for. I'll give them my best guess when the time comes. If they have a problem with it I'll expect them to prove I've done wrong somehow. I can't so they can't.

that's my general take too. in most cases, the tax authorities will have precious little information to contradict what you give them. altcoin exchanges are not like your employer; they're not even like a regulated broker. there is no tax reporting, period. if your taxes properly account for what you cashed out in the end, who's going to know or care enough to disprove you?

the OP makes it sound like paying your taxes involves a police interrogation.

It depends on the amounts you are selling obviously. If you are selling something anecdotal they will not bother as long as what enters within your bank account is payed for on the tax term that it happens. But if you are selling a bigger amount, they will deep digger and ask for more information, and you must have this information ready. Since this is still very experimental, I don't know which information they ask for, that is why I wanted to have a precedent. I have seen way too much bullshit in crypto, to the point that I feel safer sitting during a massive bear market on Bitcoin rather than selling anything just to avoid the tax clusterfuck. Until it's all clear to me the coins ain't moving.

[audaciousbeing]

Imagine that you send some bitcoins to Livecoin to buy some altcoin that you were interested in, did some trading, found some profit, increased bitcoin count. Very nice, but here is the problem: Turns out Livecoin deletes all of your trading history every 15 days. I realized this when it was too late because the fuckers put it on tiny fonts somewhere where it's not that visible. Now I have lost the trading, so if I wanted to sell the bitcoins that were obtain through the trades in there for fiat and they asked for details, I wouldn't have said details since stupid Livecoin apparently thinks deleting people's trading history is a good idea.

What would be your options if this happened and you were saving money to buy property? It would suck not being able to sell your trading gains. I would be worried to simply tell the truth, that the trading history is lost, because they don't really care about the truth, if you have nothing to show to prove the funds are from legit origin there is a risk they screw you up. Any ideas?

It really calls for concern and even me I have been a victim of this but since its not something I would really need, I don't bother making a fuss out of it. Its seriously not right to delete ones trading history but there is no way around it because we have all consented to their terms which included all of these activities.

A way out is to write them and ask for special treatment to download it for you. They would either do that or reply you that they don't do that and how long they delete trading history. With that, you can then print the mail and use it to support your claim to show you are saying the truth.

[cellard]

Imagine that you send some bitcoins to Livecoin to buy some altcoin that you were interested in, did some trading, found some profit, increased bitcoin count. Very nice, but here is the problem: Turns out Livecoin deletes all of your trading history every 15 days. I realized this when it was too late because the fuckers put it on tiny fonts somewhere where it's not that visible. Now I have lost the trading, so if I wanted to sell the bitcoins that were obtain through the trades in there for fiat and they asked for details, I wouldn't have said details since stupid Livecoin apparently thinks deleting people's trading history is a good idea.

What would be your options if this happened and you were saving money to buy property? It would suck not being able to sell your trading gains. I would be worried to simply tell the truth, that the trading history is lost, because they don't really care about the truth, if you have nothing to show to prove the funds are from legit origin there is a risk they screw you up. Any ideas?

It really calls for concern and even me I have been a victim of this but since its not something I would really need, I don't bother making a fuss out of it. Its seriously not right to delete ones trading history but there is no way around it because we have all consented to their terms which included all of these activities.

A way out is to write them and ask for special treatment to download it for you. They would either do that or reply you that they don't do that and how long they delete trading history. With that, you can then print the mail and use it to support your claim to show you are saying the truth.

Well, I guess I could try to email them and ask for the records, but I suspect they are genuine when they say they really delete them after 15 days, I doubt they get backups. They probably do it to save hosting space expenses... they are a small exchange, one of these exchanges that always end up getting hacked like cryptopia and co. Well all exchanges will get hacked on a long enough timeline.

Anyway, even I recovered them, I still have the problem to deal with some mixed inputs, and then lost history on Mintpal, cryptsy, and probably on some other exchanges I don't even remember now.

I think people are downplaying the importance of this. Governments are going to start looking at utxo's and I predict it's going to be a bit of a nightmare cashing out Bitcoins unless you have all records proving ownership of coins and licit origin. Then we'll have the problem of trolls sending flagged coins to people so everyone ends up a criminal, so it will be governments that will have a nightmare of paperwork to do as well. We'll see how it goes.

[figmentofmyass]

I think people are downplaying the importance of this. Governments are going to start looking at utxo's and I predict it's going to be a bit of a nightmare cashing out Bitcoins unless you have all records proving ownership of coins and licit origin.

by the same token, why don't governments start looking at paper money serial numbers and tracking the movement of cash? do you think cash businesses (restaurants, bars, car washes, laundries, weed delivery businesses, gas stations, etc) worry about this stuff when they deposit piles of cash into the bank?

when it comes to the tax man, the question is whether you paid your taxes, not whether the origin of the income was licit.

Then we'll have the problem of trolls sending flagged coins to people so everyone ends up a criminal, so it will be governments that will have a nightmare of paperwork to do as well. We'll see how it goes.

huh?

[cellard]

by the same token, why don't governments start looking at paper money serial numbers and tracking the movement of cash? do you think cash businesses (restaurants, bars, car washes, laundries, weed delivery businesses, gas stations, etc) worry about this stuff when they deposit piles of cash into the bank?

when it comes to the tax man, the question is whether you paid your taxes, not whether the origin of the income was licit.

Because they've never had the resources, but if they could they would indeed use the serial numbers. With Bitcoin, with enough chain analysis research, they could flag addresses which automatically are stopped at exchanges. They have a permanent online record of all transactions to do this. In fact I think there is someone working on this already. The problem as I proposed is that you may end up with some of these coins accidentally (by using mixers, or by trolls/attackers sending small amounts around, or by other ways in which these coins may end up in your wallet)

huh?

Obviously it's just a theoretical scenario. It just depends on how governments make laws about utxos. If they dictate that anyone that holds coins in an address which in its history has been known as a flagged account is part of the crime, then it will be a clusterfuck and every time you deposit coins linked to your named in an exchange, you'll be at a certain risk. Never underestimate how much governments can fuck things up when new tech is challenging existing laws and then they legislating in crazy ways about it.

[mrdeposit]

I had to use it a couple of times. Most of the time deposit / withdraw is frozen. Even after a long time visit, when I visited 2FA was automatically disabled by themselves. I have re-activated 2FA because of some money. Afterwards withdraw disabled. 

[gantez]

I had to use it a couple of times. Most of the time deposit / withdraw is frozen. Even after a long time visit, when I visited 2FA was automatically disabled by themselves. I have re-activated 2FA because of some money. Afterwards withdraw disabled. 

I just don't enjoy this kind of story. You suffer to make some profitable decision in trade after having your heart in your hand  , then you go through terrible stress to try to withdraw and may finally not succeed because a certain people is just not competent. Is not a good story.

[Harlot]

I think the best option now is to back up your story on telling the truth, it would be believable in their end if somehow you have tracked your gains through a portfolio management app, and in the best of your memories you just need to transfer all your trades to that application. Even if your Livecoin's trading history is cleared I think that they would believe your story as you have showed them the record on how you have come up with that gain, showing them the txids would also help showing how the money transferred inside Livecoin and outside to your wallet. Creating a whole new fake story now will just get you in a lot of trouble.