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Author Topic: Imagine I'm the average Joe. Sell me on the following.  (Read 224 times)
throwawayman
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February 03, 2019, 05:23:24 PM
 #1

If I'm the average adult and I don't know about: Bitcoin, how fiat and our modern financial system work.
Sell me on: why banks/fiat are bad and why Bitcoin is the solution.

Much of the discussion regarding this just consists of buzz words, regurgitated sound bites and cliché talking points.

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?

Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?

Third: What would make the average consumer care?

(Climate change, obesity and corruption are all massive problems but in a world full of distractions,
no one really gives a shit) Bitcoin has a bit of a PR problem in regards to how the community and developers are going to
make the average consumer give a flying fuck about decentralization. Also keep in mind that most people are
willing to pay middle men if it gives them piece of mind and they don't have to question the world around them
and wrap their brain around new technology.

The first two are ten times easier than the third in my opinion, I'd appreciate replies to be free of jargon, sure most
people on this forum are going to understand you but they're not the ones you need to convince, it's the small
business owner, the person who shops online and the person with a savings account

Cheers.
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qwk
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February 03, 2019, 05:41:24 PM
Merited by dothebeats (3), pooya87 (1)
 #2

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?
Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?
Third: What would make the average consumer care?
1. they aren't.
2. it doesn't.
3. he wouldn't.

Honestly, those are all valid and true answers, but I guess you're missing the point here.
Bitcoin offers an alternative and/or complement to the traditional technological finance paradigm, which is basically a continuation of methods developed in early renaissance Italy, ca. 1400-1600.
How and wether Bitcoin's new paradigm will work for consumers and/or against traditional institutions' established business models, is an unanswered question, and part of a large-scale experiment that started on January 3. 2009.

We'll see.

All free men, wherever they may live, can use Bitcoin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Bitcoiner!"
NeuroticFish
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February 03, 2019, 08:10:36 PM
 #3

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?
Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?
Third: What would make the average consumer care?

Fiat is inflationary. It's far too tied to government politics.
In most countries, on short term (from earning the money until it's spent) the consumer won't see much of a difference. But there are countries (Venezuela is the top example) where the local currency is a bad joke.
In such countries people can probably buy US Dollar for safety if it's available. Bitcoin is another option.
On long term, even in US one can see that the value of money is decreasing slowly (inflation). Bitcoin is deflationary and should "fix" that, because it's designed to be deflationary.

Yes, I know, this may sound fake in a bearish market, but .. if you look at the averages, you'll see this.
And in the days the markets turns bullish, Bitcoin is also a good investment (although quite risky, tbh).


Average consumer? Well, for now the "history" has shown that the average consumer couldn't care less. He jumps in when everybody shows Bitcoin rising, then, when the rise ends, he will sell, possibly on profit, possibly not. The technology that allows you send anywhere millions of Dollars worth of Bitcoin for the fee of a few cents, the deflationary nature (max 21M Bitcoin ever and clearly some do lose their money forever), the fact that more and more merchants start accepting Bitcoin for their goods/services, like any other proper coin, these are not important for many, unfortunately.

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February 03, 2019, 08:12:36 PM
 #4


So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?

Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?

Third: What would make the average consumer care?


Not bad for the first topic to answer here.

1. Banks are fine, the government is not.
2. The only fix, in my opinion, is the anonymity.
3. It's hard to shift from the current financial system.
hatshepsut93
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February 03, 2019, 08:31:40 PM
 #5

1. Banks are selling your data to advertisers and maybe even other interested parties. Also they may share your data with your government.

2. People usually say that Bitcoin also has bad privacy, but you can use mixing, Lightning Network, use Bitcoin to buy Monero when needed. There are also some improvements under way.

3. People don't care much about privacy today, but awareness is growing, people install adblocks, anti-tracking extensions, many consider target ads invasive and creepy. The more people feel watched, the more chances they will use Bitcoin.

eaLiTy
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February 04, 2019, 01:37:51 AM
 #6

If I'm the average adult and I don't know about: Bitcoin, how fiat and our modern financial system work.
Sell me on: why banks/fiat are bad and why Bitcoin is the solution.

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?

Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?

Third: What would make the average consumer care?
1.No one is claiming that fiat and banks are bad. You need to have a cohesive connection between fiat as well as the bitcoin network. For example if you want to send money abroad or trade it is a task, there is conversion and transaction charges, bitcoin can do that easy any where in the world.

2. As I said above bitcoin will cut those delay and hurdles for international traders.

3. What an average consumer needs is the safety of their hard earned savings and we need more development in that aspect in bitcoin. This is a new technology with time you will see more solutions and questions. Wink

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KingScorpio
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February 04, 2019, 02:11:05 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2019, 02:52:26 AM by KingScorpio
 #7

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?
Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?
Third: What would make the average consumer care?
1. they aren't.
2. it doesn't.
3. he wouldn't.

you are a long standing member of this "decentralisation community" qwk from you i would have expected a better answer, then this.

but i clarify
So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?
1. Fiats or the better term that i use "communal currencies" are complicated and expensive in its transactions and risky in its transaction (money transports, banking institutions, transcontinental transactions, time and cost intensive)
2. the established riskaverse banks, systematically enrich and support the established rich and for that they scam the poor, an open financial market equalises opportunities, and chances, for rich and poor again.
additionally the banks are causing economic crisis, with their attitute towards money, economy and power. which is extremely damaging for enterpreneuers who get more and more difficulties, to get regulariy contracts for their goods and services.
Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?
bitcoin is model of a currency/asset that is

1. outside of the banking cartels grip (open financial market)
2. is digital cheaper and saver to transact.

bitcoin is not the final and ultimate solution like the profitmaximising bitcoincentrists/maximalist (agendadriven) want to make everyone to believe, and neither is their created corrupt cryptocurrency index, which the bitcoin founders try to use to enslave the whole world.

Third: What would make the average consumer care?
the average consumer is also an employee that needs to earn his access to consumption capacieties,
and for that he needs a reliable demand for his work, and being payed for it.
the banking cartels with their trust crisis, will either resolve into old fashioned communism (to keep people working for money) or will start to cause economic volatility and even more security for those average consumers when it comes to earning money, they this way cant obtain purchasing power which they need to thrive and survive.

oh and they could also continue their neofeudal agenda of continously enriching the rich.

so the alternatives to an open financial market via crypto are:

1. neofeudal system, through the established rich billionaires
2. communist system through current banking cartel
3. open financial market that is not digital and global
4. undefined, unsecure and difficult to understand cashless society.


the old legendary members of this forum aren't usually big thinkers outside of their IT coding sphere, or they simply are to afraid to mention those issues.
regards

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February 04, 2019, 03:31:05 AM
 #8

why should we convince you?

bitcoin wasn't created to replace anything, and it certainly wasn't created to be forced on average Joes as the new currency that they MUST use! bitcoin is an alternative payment system that is working entirely different than the traditional ones. if you like it, then you use it, and if you don't then you don't use it. it is that simple. nobody is going to force you to accept or not accept bitcoin.

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February 04, 2019, 04:06:43 AM
Merited by Wind_FURY (1)
 #9

fiat:
fiat is created at ZERO cost. thus it has a ZERO base cost layer to its value(gold backing died decades ago)
its created due to debt. when someone signs a credit agreement/promissory notes (credit cards/mortgage agreements,government bonds). the banks create new fiat. and then the recipient has to get other fiat PLUS interest to give back to the bank. this creates an endless loop of zero win for the public and the only winners are banks

banks are also the major custodians(holders/controllers) of the publics fiat. so even though people think they 'own' fiat. the banks are the real ones that both created it, holding it for people, AND making people pay banks back for that..

fiat only has utility due to popularity, sparked off by bankers and then pushed further by bankers making lawmakers ensure fiat remains viable. (such as taxes needing to be paid in fiat, court fines and minimum wage measured in such)

with other currencies emerging. all that pins fiat to remaining a utility is the laws that protect it from becoming useless.
(if public services were no longer paid via tax treasuries but made privatised, than fiat would lose control of utility benefit)

imagine if state schools, trash collection and road maintenance became self funded by people buying cryptocurrency of that service

..
bitcoin:
unlike other altcoins that are PoS(zero value). bitcoin is created using actual electric and calculations that are complex and actually cost people money to create bitcoin. so bitcoin has an underlying value which other coins do not.
bitcoin has so far remained the main popular coin to be used by a multitude of different services so it has a large utility value too.

when you buy bitcoin, you are not then signing contracts to be in any endless loop of having to pay back, or pay into something. once you have it. its your end of. thats why its an asset.
bitcoin does no need laws to push/force utility. its a open free decision. thus offers many things that fiat does not, while also offering an escape of the burden of the fiat environment.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 04, 2019, 05:11:44 AM
 #10

bitcoin:
unlike other altcoins that are PoS(zero value). bitcoin is created using actual electric and calculations that are complex and actually cost people money to create bitcoin. so bitcoin has an underlying value which other coins do not.
bitcoin has so far remained the main popular coin to be used by a multitude of different services so it has a large utility value too.

All coins only have the value attributed them by the marketplace
the buyers, by the price they are willing to pay
and by the sellers , by the lowest price they are willing to sell at.

No Matter PoS or PoW, these are psychological barriers ,
You can argue the original price to create said coin determine price,
on the other side of that argument is the original purchase price.

But in Truth the original price purchased or cost to create is finally irrelevant,
once the psychological barriers are broken, either by need or clear observation that a coin has no utility or was over priced to begin with.

Thinking the psychological barriers won't break is pure nonsense, as they are only psychological.

Bitcoin Price lowers everyday because their is no true monetary reason for it not to decline.

Bitcoin PoW input cost offer it no more protection/guarantee than groestlcoin PoW input costs.

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February 04, 2019, 05:15:53 AM
 #11

All coins only have the value attributed them by the marketplace

you keep thinking that and stick with your high school economics.
then one day you can ask yourself. why gold is on par with its mining cost and why gold is not $1
you will then soon learn about the dynamics at play

if you think that bitcoin has no underlying value, and that it is no better then a pos coin.. then you have a big learning curve ahead of you.

so here is a tip for your first step. "price" and "value" are not the same

the buyers, by the price they are willing to pay
and by the sellers , by the lowest price they are willing to sell at.
ask yourself why buyers would refuse to buy above Yx of what they can get bitcoin if they mined it
ask yourself why would sellers refuse to sell below Yx of what they bought/mined bitcoin at

you will soon learn the market:mining dynamics. which PoS coin does not have

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 04, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2019, 05:43:44 AM by Khaos77
 #12

All coins only have the value attributed them by the marketplace
the buyers, by the price they are willing to pay
and by the sellers , by the lowest price they are willing to sell at.

you keep thinking that and stick with your high school economics.
then one day you can ask yourself. why gold is on par with its mining cost and why gold is not $1
you will then soon learn about the dynamics at play

Gold Miners can shut down mining operations completely for a year.
And it stops no one from using the gold they already purchased.

Comparing Bitcoin to Gold shows a lack of comprehension.

Bitcoin is not a commodity, in reality it is nothing more than a service provided by elite miners.

Bitcoin is nothing more than a alternative paypal.
Only difference is the elite miners pretend like it is decentralized, when in truth they pick and choose which transactions to include or exclude, no different than Paypal management policies choosing which to allow or deny.

If Bitcoin Miners stop mining for a year.
Bitcoin itself becomes worthless because it's ability to be transferred between individuals is over.

Therefore it is nothing more than a service and as a service competes with other payment services nothing more nothing less.
This means once it price of utility exceeds those competing services, it either has to lower it's price to compete or lose market share to the other services.


the buyers, by the price they are willing to pay
and by the sellers , by the lowest price they are willing to sell at.
ask yourself why buyers would refuse to buy above Yx of what they can get bitcoin if they mined it
ask yourself why would sellers refuse to sell below Yx of what they bought/mined bitcoin at

you will soon learn the market:mining dynamics. which PoS coin does not have

The most apparent flaw to your confusion,
is you seem to think miners have unlimited fiat in which they either mine or buy bitcoin exclusively.
If they are not mining it , then they are buying it.
The obvious question becomes, if they had unlimited fiat, trying to prop up a counter system to compete with fiat is counter productive to their financial interests.
Someone with unlimited fiat has no need to waste time on alternative systems when they can gleam everything they want from the fiat system.
Where you need to correct your thinking is to realize that miners are attempting to sell their services for fiat,
because they don't have unlimited fiat to begin with.
Take a poll of miners if you wish and ask how many never needed their mining to actually make a fiat profit.
 



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February 04, 2019, 05:34:13 AM
 #13

If I'm the average adult and I don't know about: Bitcoin, how fiat and our modern financial system work.
Sell me on: why banks/fiat are bad and why Bitcoin is the solution.

Much of the discussion regarding this just consists of buzz words, regurgitated sound bites and cliché talking points.


You should take another look at the reality you're living in. Some buzzwords are not "buzzwords", only truth. I believe it was Aldous Huxley who said something like, the truth would be hard to find in a sea of lies. He said it during the 1930's.

Quote

So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?


They are "bad" because we put our trust in "their" system, but they don't act in our best interest.

Do your research on fractional reserve banking.

Quote

Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?


Bitcoin doesn't "fix" it. But we are given a choice to hedge against the banksters.

Hodl Bitcoin, short banksters.

Quote

Third: What would make the average consumer care?


You're merely given a choice. No one should care if you care, or not care.

Quote

(Climate change, obesity and corruption are all massive problems but in a world full of distractions,
no one really gives a shit) Bitcoin has a bit of a PR problem in regards to how the community and developers are going to make the average consumer give a flying fuck about decentralization. Also keep in mind that most people are willing to pay middle men if it gives them piece of mind and they don't have to question the world around them and wrap their brain around new technology.


If they don't believe in it, or if they believe that they don't have a need for it, then they should leave it.

Plus we also shouldn't waste our time on them.


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February 04, 2019, 05:37:36 AM
 #14

I will take a simple example that happened to me over this weekend. I went to my local Barber for a haircut and they are immigrants from Greece, working in another country. They were talking about MoneyGram and Western Union and how people get ripped off with high fees when they use these services.

This immediately got my attention even though I was not part of the discussion. I simply asked them if they knew how cheap it is to send money to Greece with Bitcoin and this led to a question & answer session and quick training of almost 2 hours. I can now understand their frustration and they have a new way to transfer money to their country without hassles and at a fraction of the price that they are sending it via MoneyGram and Western Union.

Oh, I did not have to pay for my haircut.  Grin  

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February 04, 2019, 05:38:22 AM
 #15

fiat is created at ZERO cost. thus it has a ZERO base cost layer to its value(gold backing died decades ago)
its created due to debt.

Well, that's not entirely true. It costs $0.103 to print 1 $20 bill and $0.0166 to mint 1 penny.

unlike other altcoins that are PoS(zero value).

If somebody pays for something using a PoS coin, obviously its value isn't zero. If they can exchange it for BTC or $$, obviously its value isn't zero. The value might be subjectively zero to you and 4x its actual price to another. Just because you say something has zero value doesn't mean everybody else thinks this way.

I mean, like you pointed out, the dollar is created at zero cost (or minimal cost for a physical form), yet the USD is the most stable financial instrument in the entire world. Cost of production has little to do with stability, value or price -- utility and fungibility have everything to do with it.

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February 04, 2019, 05:39:37 AM
 #16

Gold Miners can shut down mining operations completely for a year.
And it stops no one from using the gold they already purchased.

Comparing Bitcoin to Gold shows a lack of comprehension.

Bitcoin is not a commodity, in reality it is nothing more than a service provided by elite miners.
gold sits on 2 markets
commodity and asset.
no one refutes that bitcoin is not a commodity. i even for years have been trying to tell people that bitcoin is unlike gold commodity.
but the gold asset. thats a different market.

seems you do have more to learn

Bitcoin is nothing more than a alternative paypal.
yep you definitely have more to learn

Therefore it is nothing more than a service and as a service competes with other payment services nothing more nothing less.
This means once it price of utility exceeds those competing services, it either has to lower it's price to compete or lose market share to the other services.
people are not paying for a service. that is your mis understanding of the difference between the price/value/fee

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 04, 2019, 05:40:51 AM
 #17

I will take a simple example that happened to me over this weekend. I went to my local Barber for a haircut and they are immigrants from Greece, working in another country. They were talking about MoneyGram and Western Union and how people get ripped off with high fees when they use these services.

This immediately got my attention even though I was not part of the discussion. I simply asked them if they knew how cheap it is to send money to Greece with Bitcoin and this led to a question & answer session and quick training of almost 2 hours. I can now understand their frustration and they have a new way to transfer money to their country without hassles and at a fraction of the price that they are sending it via MoneyGram and Western Union.

Oh, I did not have to pay for my haircut.  Grin  

This is a good story. So you sold the Greek barbers on bitcoin?

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vit05
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February 04, 2019, 05:52:07 AM
 #18

Quote
So first: why are the banks/fiat bad?

Second: How does Bitcoin fix this?

Third: What would make the average consumer care?

There is no such dispute until death between Bitcoin and Banks. Credit cards do exist, and are not banks. Paypal does exist, and it is neither bank nor credit card. Transferwise exists, and is not bank, nor credit card, nor Paypal.

Bitcoin offers options for various financial opportunities. It is different and unique.
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February 04, 2019, 05:53:48 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2019, 06:13:51 AM by franky1
 #19

fiat is created at ZERO cost. thus it has a ZERO base cost layer to its value(gold backing died decades ago)
its created due to debt.

Well, that's not entirely true. It costs $0.103 to print 1 $20 bill and $0.0166 to mint 1 penny.
money creation is done on computers.
banks 'cost' of then creating the physical form is minimal which is covered not by bankers costs. but by public returns
we can argue chicken and egg all year but the physical cost is negligable
EG why is the average bank account at $24k  but banks only want people withdrawing $500 a day
so that the $25k only has a cost of(using your numbers) $2.50 per $25k = $0.002 of circulated 'money' which doesnt cost the banks anything due to the fact that government bonds and other things play into it. again banks pay nothing. its people that pay the negligible amount.


The value might be subjectively zero to you and 4x its actual price to another. Just because you say something has zero value doesn't mean everybody else thinks this way.

lets word it this way
FIAT  [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]
PoW  [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]
PoS   [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]

red=cost of creation/acquisition cost (mix of physical cost of creation. and previous cost from pure purchase second hand)
orange=laws that enforce utility
green=speculation about utility

by the way, fiat is not stable.
did you know with the US dollar. someone in new york city gets paid a minimum of $15 an hour where as someone outside the city gets paid $7.50
yep same fiat, but different locations yield different values.
even forex changes alot. a decade ago £1 got you $1.65 now its $1.31
prices of bread change often.
people being used to the volatility does not = stable.. it just means they stopped caring about its movement and just pay whatever price they see as they think fiat is the only currency they can use so have no choice

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 04, 2019, 06:12:32 AM
Merited by nutildah (1)
 #20

lets word it this way
FIAT  [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]
PoW  [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]
PoS   [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]

red=cost of creation/acquisition cost (mix of physical cost of creation. and previous cost from pure purchase second hand)
orange=laws that enforce utility
green=speculation about utility

As far as Utilities goes
FIAT  [|||]
PoW  [|||]
PoS   [|||]

I only see 3 bars for each
1. Make a Payment
2. Receive payment
3. Hold (Hoping the price of Fiat/PoW/PoS increases verses the object/service desired to be purchased)


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