Bitcoin Forum
May 22, 2019, 10:13:01 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.0 [Torrent] (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Deep cold storage  (Read 299 times)
rabbitfairferry
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 27
Merit: 16


View Profile
February 04, 2019, 04:17:00 PM
 #1

Hi all, newbie here.

Was watching one of Andreas' videos in which he mentions his form of deep cold storage.

He says his funds are:

"held on keys that are not initiated on any device. They exist in such a way that they're encrypted with a memorized passphrase which I have also communicated to people who might become my heirs so that they don't get lost with me and that's cold storage"

Can someone please explain how do you

(a) transfer funds to keys that have not even been initiated? Don't you need a wallet to generate that for you?

(b) How do you encrypt them with a passphrase without a wallet?

Thank you.
1558519982
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558519982

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558519982
Reply with quote  #2

1558519982
Report to moderator
1558519982
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558519982

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558519982
Reply with quote  #2

1558519982
Report to moderator
1558519982
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558519982

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558519982
Reply with quote  #2

1558519982
Report to moderator
START MINING BTC NOW WITH NEW GENERATION S17 ANTMINER! BTC/BCH/LTC/ZCASH/DASH/ETH/DCR MINING PLAN AVAILABLE Highly Reduced Electricity Fee $0.067/T/DAY!
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1558519982
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558519982

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558519982
Reply with quote  #2

1558519982
Report to moderator
1558519982
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558519982

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558519982
Reply with quote  #2

1558519982
Report to moderator
aplistir
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 315
Merit: 144



View Profile
February 04, 2019, 04:41:28 PM
Last edit: March 11, 2019, 11:38:42 AM by aplistir
 #2

I guess he just meant that the private keys are not in any device or wallet.  Of-course the address and its balance has to be in the blockchain.

Encryption does not need a wallet. there are lots of encryption programs, that have nothing to do with bitcoin, out there.

Maybe he just created the private keys in an offline computer eg. in an offline version of bitaddress.org and never loaded the keys anywhere. Just keeps them encrypted in an USB disk or paper wallet or something.

Edit:  You can create an encrypted paper walled in (offline) bitaddress.org. That could be it Smiley

Edit2: corrected the address. Had a typo in the address and it pointed to a scam site Sad
Very sorry for the mistake. And thanks to LoyceV for pointing it out.
This just proofs that it is very important to check every bitcoin related address very carefully.

My Address: 121f7zb2U4g9iM4MiJTDhEzqeZGHzq5wLh
darosior
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 170
Merit: 177



View Profile WWW
February 04, 2019, 04:42:34 PM
Merited by Welsh (5), suchmoon (4), ETFbitcoin (2)
 #3

Hi all, newbie here.

Was watching one of Andreas' videos in which he mentions his form of deep cold storage.

He says his funds are:

"held on keys that are not initiated on any device. They exist in such a way that they're encrypted with a memorized passphrase which I have also communicated to people who might become my heirs so that they don't get lost with me and that's cold storage"

Can someone please explain how do you

(a) transfer funds to keys that have not even been initiated? Don't you need a wallet to generate that for you?

(b) How do you encrypt them with a passphrase without a wallet?

Thank you.
Hi,

(a)
Quick answer : you make a transaction sending coins to the hash of the public key derived from the private one you generated somehow.
Detailed/explained answer : a private key is nothing but a random number that you can generate in many ways, like the famous "tossing a coin 256 times" (since the key is 256bits long). From there you can derive a public key from it, and then hash it : you got a fresh address without any wallet. You can then make a transaction from a wallet to this address without having to import the private key.
You can have a look at my signature if you want to know more about how exactly you get from the private key to the address.

(b)
The encryption algorithm (a.k.a bip38) is openly consultable here https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0038.mediawiki and surely from other places. Thus it can be implemented outside of a wallet.

Github profile ~ Crypto Lyon (french community)  ~ GPG key fingerprint : E13F C145 CD3F 430 ~ LN public key : 03678b4f041fbfbeebcafc076469df75decf81da20a53bd490172e83ce532df1fa
Tutorials/posts : Address from private keyBitcoin smart contracts ~ Setup a Bitcoin node ~ Raw P2PKH transaction in Python ~ P2SH ~ 51% attack
darosior
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 170
Merit: 177



View Profile WWW
February 04, 2019, 04:47:11 PM
 #4

I guess he just meant that the private keys are not in any device or wallet.  Of-course the address and its balance has to be in the blockchain.

Encryption does not need a wallet. there are lots of encryption programs, that have nothing to do with bitcoin, out there.

Maybe he just created the private keys in an offline computer eg. in an offline version of bittaddress.org and never loaded the keys anywhere. Just keeps them encrypted in an USB disk or paper wallet or something.

Edit:  You can create an encrypted paper walled in (offline) bittaddress.org. That could be it Smiley
There is no such thing as a balance for an address in the block chain, just transactions.

Github profile ~ Crypto Lyon (french community)  ~ GPG key fingerprint : E13F C145 CD3F 430 ~ LN public key : 03678b4f041fbfbeebcafc076469df75decf81da20a53bd490172e83ce532df1fa
Tutorials/posts : Address from private keyBitcoin smart contracts ~ Setup a Bitcoin node ~ Raw P2PKH transaction in Python ~ P2SH ~ 51% attack
asche
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 591


I forgot more than you will ever know.


View Profile
February 04, 2019, 05:53:51 PM
 #5

There is no such thing as a balance for an address in the block chain, just transactions.

AFAIK the balance is the sum of all transactions to or from a public address.

HeRetiK
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106
Merit: 1049


the forkings will continue until morale improves


View Profile
February 04, 2019, 07:22:31 PM
Merited by darosior (2), ETFbitcoin (1)
 #6

There is no such thing as a balance for an address in the block chain, just transactions.

AFAIK the balance is the sum of all transactions to or from a public address.

Yes, but this balance is not stored as such on the blockchain but are rather the way wallets choose to display the sum of inputs / outputs available to you as a user (as opposed to Ethereum, for example, where accounts and their respective balances are stored and maintained as a global state).

vit05
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658
Merit: 519



View Profile WWW
February 04, 2019, 08:59:13 PM
 #7

You can create, save, and encrypt your private keys. There is only need to use a wallet if you want to send to some other address using that private key.

Quote
Bitcoin DOESN’T exists. It’s not a real thing. Or rather, the only “real” thing is the ledger itself which is already public to everyone everywhere.

█▀▀█
██▄█
BESTMIXER.IO // BEST BITCOIN MIXER
█▀▀█
██▄█
cellard
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1209


View Profile
February 05, 2019, 03:29:45 AM
 #8

I think he means that the keys must be generated within an offline environment. So an offline computer without anything that could leak into the outside world is ideal, but he says that this is overkill for most people and hardware wallets are good enough.

However he says something that raises alarms in me: He says 4 words are good enough? Unless I was too tired watching the video or too distracted doing other things because I do a lot of stuff at once while watching videos, anyway what I remember is, he said 4 words is enough. I think this is insane. Anyone that has the time can confirm this? I wouldn't trust anything under 12 words for a seed. Ideally 24 words.
Effingham Hoofnagle
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 15
Merit: 5


View Profile
February 05, 2019, 04:02:39 AM
 #9

I can't imagine that he said 4 words are enough for a BTC mnemonic.
Using the 2048 word BIP 39 list, each word represents 11 bits of entropy
Thus, 4 words = 44 bits of entropy.

44 bits of entropy can be brute-forced in a matter of months, even at a reasonable 1 million guesses/second.


At a minimum, if you consider your adversary to have an NSA-level (according to Snowden) 1 trillion guesses/second capablilty
you would need at least 7 words (77 bits of entropy) to make brute-forcing your mnemonic unlikely for at least your lifetime.
nc50lc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 602
Merit: 394


Self-proclaimed Genius ㊙️


View Profile WWW
February 05, 2019, 04:12:16 AM
 #10

[Didn't watched the Video]
I got a feeling that he's talking about "Brain Wallet", if it is, there's a huge risk in security here.
If it's not, he might just wanted to know more about what's blockchain under the hood.

(a) transfer funds to keys that have not even been initiated? Don't you need a wallet to generate that for you?
In addition to what others said, in simple words:
[a] You can receive funds in any address anytime as long as you have its Private key pair even without a wallet or internet. All you need is a piece of paper and a pen.
Addresses which are based from Pub keys aren't "initiated" in order to be valid. Even if it is not yet used, every address is valid as long as it was correctly derived from a valid Public key which is derived from the Private key (wallets do this automatically but it's possible to compute manually).

More info: Bitcoin Wiki

███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████████
#1
███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████████
BTC 
  ●
   BTC
  BTC   
.
    ▄▄▄▀▀▀▀
 ▄██▀
███        ▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄▄▄
▀███▄▄▄▄▀▀▀                 ▀▀▄▄
  ▀▀▀██████████████████████████▀
   ▄█▄     ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
    ▀▀██▄▄█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀
      ▄  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
      ▀██▄  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
        ▀█▀██████████████▀▀
         ▀█▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
            █▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀
             ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
     BTC
  BTC   
  ●
  BTC   
███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████████
███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████████
rabbitfairferry
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 27
Merit: 16


View Profile
February 06, 2019, 04:53:10 AM
 #11

Hi,

(a)
Quick answer : you make a transaction sending coins to the hash of the public key derived from the private one you generated somehow.
Detailed/explained answer : a private key is nothing but a random number that you can generate in many ways, like the famous "tossing a coin 256 times" (since the key is 256bits long). From there you can derive a public key from it, and then hash it : you got a fresh address without any wallet. You can then make a transaction from a wallet to this address without having to import the private key.
You can have a look at my signature if you want to know more about how exactly you get from the private key to the address.

(b)
The encryption algorithm (a.k.a bip38) is openly consultable here https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0038.mediawiki and surely from other places. Thus it can be implemented outside of a wallet.

Thanks alot for the information, would have a read!
50 Cent
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 112
Merit: 26

Detective Pikachu


View Profile WWW
March 09, 2019, 09:56:44 AM
Merited by dbshck (4), reallester (2), vapourminer (1), LoyceV (1), calandra78 (1)
 #12

Quote
Edit:  You can create an encrypted paper walled in (offline) bittaddress.org. That could be it Smiley
not bittaddress.org even thats scam website
true is : bitaddress.org [one 't']

ETERBASE | TRADE WITH NEGATIVE FEES
▬ xbase ▬▬▬■▌[SIGN UP NOW]▐■▬▬▬ xbase ▬
ANN THREAD   |    TELEGRAM    |    FACEBOOK    |    TWITTER
mikeywith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420
Merit: 830


be constructive or S.T.F.U


View Profile
March 09, 2019, 08:40:41 PM
 #13

(b) How do you encrypt them with a passphrase without a wallet?

adding to darosior's answer, and as dumb as it may sound I use substitution cipher method to encrypt my offline wallets , i am a little bit paranoid about the fact that it's possible for someone to  get a hold to my PKs.

while manual substitution cipher is an old method and considered to be have the lowest security measures, it can be very handy at some point, and as long as you do it right, chances are nobody will ever be able to decryption it.

you just need to come up and an easy to remember sequence to substitute some of the characters "hex format" in your PK, make sure you never forget that the sequence , because then you will lock yourself out too.

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!