Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

[cfbtcman]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

That value can be cryptographed with blocks data, so it would be reliable and we could start to delete old blocks that are just wasting space in blockchain and finally descentralize the blockchain, because sometime only microsoft and google can manage to keep a full node.

Also it will contribute for anonimity because if we generate many. many, many transactions and blocks, no enterprise in the world can get registry of all blocks, like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

With possibility of deleting old blocks and even force first blocks to have a maximum time of some years like 10 or 20 years or less, we could have onchain big blocks decentralized and dont need layer 2 or layer 3 or layer 4 !

Would be layer 1 completely descentralized and guaranteed anonymity.

[1715004488]

1715004488

[1715004488]

1715004488

[Pursuer]

what you are describing is no longer blockchain and has no cryptography involved anymore. it is just a database like what banks have where you own an account which has an associated balance with it. and unless you can find a way to decentralize it and include cryptography in it so that there is no way of cheating that "balance" without needing a centralized entity to update these balances and control fraud, you won't be able to implement your idea.

like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

yes, the best way of remaining anonymous according to Craig Scammer Wright is to always connect to NSA and report all your activities down to every detail willingly
because that is where we land with big blocks, a handful of nodes run by NSA which you have to connect to.

[bitmover]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

The reason behind the need to every full node have a copy of the whole Blockchain , including every spent input and output is that it's a system where you don't need to trust anyone. The lack of trust is one of the things that make this cryptography system so secure.

[dothebeats]

To reduce blocksize as these information also consumes spaces within each block, at least that's what I see it. If this is to be implemented, imagine all the extra bits a transaction might have which could possibly lead to a full block which have less transactions than usual. Also, deleting the old blocks in a blockchain isn't a 'blockchain' any more without this integral part, so there's that.

[bL4nkcode]

What you're pertaining of which deleting blocks or any records in the ledger is not a blockchain anymore.

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

If you can click the address and view its all balance and transaction data then there's no need to do that.

like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

yes, the best way of remaining anonymous according to Craig Scammer Wright is to always connect to NSA and report all your activities down to every detail willingly
because that is where we land with big blocks, a handful of nodes run by NSA which you have to connect to.

Well, apparently.

[denzkilim]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

That value can be cryptographed with blocks data, so it would be reliable and we could start to delete old blocks that are just wasting space in blockchain and finally descentralize the blockchain, because sometime only microsoft and google can manage to keep a full node.

Also it will contribute for anonimity because if we generate many. many, many transactions and blocks, no enterprise in the world can get registry of all blocks, like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

With possibility of deleting old blocks and even force first blocks to have a maximum time of some years like 10 or 20 years or less, we could have onchain big blocks decentralized and dont need layer 2 or layer 3 or layer 4 !

Would be layer 1 completely descentralized and guaranteed anonymity.

You need a banker bro and you should understand what does blockchain means. If you want such data's like that you should go back to the old ways and you are in the wrong place right now.

To reduce blocksize as these information also consumes spaces within each block, at least that's what I see it. If this is to be implemented, imagine all the extra bits a transaction might have which could possibly lead to a full block which have less transactions than usual. Also, deleting the old blocks in a blockchain isn't a 'blockchain' any more without this integral part, so there's that.

That's correct and I think there is no sense including the final balance of each address transacting throughout the blockchain network. I think the thread starter just wanted to make things more complicated with his ideas LOL. I don't know why people these days wanted to make things harder if there are simple ways to make it easier.

[odolvlobo]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.
...

The reason is that you cannot verify that the balance is correct without looking at the transactions associated with it.

[vit05]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

That value can be cryptographed with blocks data, so it would be reliable and we could start to delete old blocks that are just wasting space in blockchain

 If someone disagrees with the final balance that is at his address, with whom should he complain? How would the transmission of the correct block occur in the network? Would not it be possible to have a desynchronization between the nods?

[cfbtcman]

what you are describing is no longer blockchain and has no cryptography involved anymore. it is just a database like what banks have where you own an account which has an associated balance with it. and unless you can find a way to decentralize it and include cryptography in it so that there is no way of cheating that "balance" without needing a centralized entity to update these balances and control fraud, you won't be able to implement your idea.

like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

yes, the best way of remaining anonymous according to Craig Scammer Wright is to always connect to NSA and report all your activities down to every detail willingly
because that is where we land with big blocks, a handful of nodes run by NSA which you have to connect to.

Yes it can be a blockchain, there still will use math and math is math, 2+2=4, its like the block criptography, just will have the total account balance as more a variable to be encrypted in data block and cannot be changed without redo all calculations again, same thing as now in blocks cyphers.

NSA can run nodes too, everybody knows bitcoins its not 100% anonymum, if you want privacy should be better to start to delete first blocks.

[Pursuer]

what you are describing is no longer blockchain and has no cryptography involved anymore. it is just a database like what banks have where you own an account which has an associated balance with it. and unless you can find a way to decentralize it and include cryptography in it so that there is no way of cheating that "balance" without needing a centralized entity to update these balances and control fraud, you won't be able to implement your idea.

like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

yes, the best way of remaining anonymous according to Craig Scammer Wright is to always connect to NSA and report all your activities down to every detail willingly
because that is where we land with big blocks, a handful of nodes run by NSA which you have to connect to.

Yes it can be a blockchain, there still will use math and math is math, 2+2=4, its like the block criptography, just will have the total account balance as more a variable to be encrypted in data block and cannot be changed without redo all calculations again, same thing as now in blocks cyphers.

that is not how bitcoin works and I can not think of a way that this can work, I would love to see a system that works this way though.
besides if you want to do a change like this, you have to basically rewrite bitcoin and kind of fundamental change will never happen.

NSA can run nodes too, everybody knows bitcoins its not 100% anonymum, if you want privacy should be better to start to delete first blocks.

first of all the difference is that if we have gigabyetes of block only a handful of super servers can run bitcoin nodes instead of individuals on their personal computers and that will centralized everything.
secondly it is not only about privacy, it is also about censorship resistance. with a centralized system, those servers can force anything they want on you and you will not be able to do anything about it. for example they can decide transactions that come from your "account" are illegal and ban you. effectively that will lock your funds up. or they can ask $100 fee per transaction to be paid to them separately. you can't do anything about any of that because there are no other nodes. there are only these servers and they decide the rules.
and that is just some of the examples off the top of my head.

[cfbtcman]

what you are describing is no longer blockchain and has no cryptography involved anymore. it is just a database like what banks have where you own an account which has an associated balance with it. and unless you can find a way to decentralize it and include cryptography in it so that there is no way of cheating that "balance" without needing a centralized entity to update these balances and control fraud, you won't be able to implement your idea.

like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

yes, the best way of remaining anonymous according to Craig Scammer Wright is to always connect to NSA and report all your activities down to every detail willingly
because that is where we land with big blocks, a handful of nodes run by NSA which you have to connect to.

Yes it can be a blockchain, there still will use math and math is math, 2+2=4, its like the block criptography, just will have the total account balance as more a variable to be encrypted in data block and cannot be changed without redo all calculations again, same thing as now in blocks cyphers.

that is not how bitcoin works and I can not think of a way that this can work, I would love to see a system that works this way though.
besides if you want to do a change like this, you have to basically rewrite bitcoin and kind of fundamental change will never happen.

NSA can run nodes too, everybody knows bitcoins its not 100% anonymum, if you want privacy should be better to start to delete first blocks.

first of all the difference is that if we have gigabyetes of block only a handful of super servers can run bitcoin nodes instead of individuals on their personal computers and that will centralized everything.
secondly it is not only about privacy, it is also about censorship resistance. with a centralized system, those servers can force anything they want on you and you will not be able to do anything about it. for example they can decide transactions that come from your "account" are illegal and ban you. effectively that will lock your funds up. or they can ask $100 fee per transaction to be paid to them separately. you can't do anything about any of that because there are no other nodes. there are only these servers and they decide the rules.
and that is just some of the examples off the top of my head.

Yes its not how that works but its like it should be and can be done!
You can cypher the final balance of each address in each block in a way you can read the balance but to change it you need to recalculate everything back, why not?

That would give you speed of light to seach one address balance in the database, because you only need to search and test integrity of a "couple" of blocks back and you wouldnt need to recalculate all the moves in all database everytime!

You are contradicting yourself, the centralization will happen in the future, nobody is deleting old blocks!

Optic fiber is speed of light, is limited, so, in 1 million years you will have terabytes and terabytes and terabytes, bitcoin was done to work for about how much years? Let me know to start to tell my kids when they should start to sell !

It should be a white elephant?
I like to make software that can run forever and not with Y2K's!

BCH hardfork its nothing, it will need to be hardforked again, again, and again... Thats life, perfection takes time, and you need to be always improving, if bitcoin cannot improve it will die.

Look for RIPPLE shit, its the second marketcap coin!

[cfbtcman]

If your goal is to reduce blockchain size by delete past blocks, then pruning mode already achieve it.

How can you calculate/validate/generate that chainset with a pruned node?
If you dont have all the blocks in the node you need to ask the rest of information to other pruned node or to a complete node, but if you force people to clean balance in all the address present in genesis block you can delete genesis block forever and still calculate any bitcoin address balance without any pruned node and with a full and light to operate node.

Because it would increase transaction size

And what is the problem of that? If you start to be able to delete complete old blocks you will delete GB of space, in the end you will be winning by far.

That's not how Bitcoin client works. There's a database called chainstate which contain all UTXO, so all clients need to do are update the balance by check on chainstate

That chainstate needs to be charged from somewhere, if you only need to have access to last block move you could generate/validade a chainstate much faster.

doubtfully, cost of storage drive is very cheap these days and enterprise can burn their money without second thought.

Actually the information is starting to grow as fast as the data manufacturing industry and that is a big problem in our days.
Thats why the core developers say big blocksizes are no solution, ironically they are creating a snow ball blockchain and dont want to implement deleting blocks

If we implement big blocks on-chain we would be generating so much information that no enterprise in future could save a record of everything, that would garantee anonymous bitcoin and if we could handle to delete old blocks the centralization would not happen.
Imagine that tomorrow all the people in facebook start to comunicate only with audio/video messages, how could facebook record all information?
They would waste more money in new disks than they have, would be impossible.

chainstate is even faster, it's DB of UTXO which already verified. And obviously it uses indexing so it's pretty fast.

Your idea looks fast, but fail if you need to verify address which last used few months or years ago.

I dont want to delete that chainstate, but you need to agree that is not big thing, the data source is the same and to create it you always take more time than if you delete old blocks and you still save a lot of space in all the world nodes, saving space is only my target.

[gulubal]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

That value can be cryptographed with blocks data, so it would be reliable and we could start to delete old blocks that are just wasting space in blockchain and finally descentralize the blockchain, because sometime only microsoft and google can manage to keep a full node.

Also it will contribute for anonimity because if we generate many. many, many transactions and blocks, no enterprise in the world can get registry of all blocks, like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

With possibility of deleting old blocks and even force first blocks to have a maximum time of some years like 10 or 20 years or less, we could have onchain big blocks decentralized and dont need layer 2 or layer 3 or layer 4 !

Would be layer 1 completely descentralized and guaranteed anonymity.

Firstly thanks for this topic that you have opened.  you are approaching the event from an interesting point of view. i like it. but you know that cryptocurrency and especially bitcoin privacy is in the foreground.  therefore, the final balance should not be visible.

[cfbtcman]

Why any transaction dont include the final balance of each address?

That would be much better to get the balance of any address, just need to find last move in blockchain and dont need to recalculate entire blockchain.

That value can be cryptographed with blocks data, so it would be reliable and we could start to delete old blocks that are just wasting space in blockchain and finally descentralize the blockchain, because sometime only microsoft and google can manage to keep a full node.

Also it will contribute for anonimity because if we generate many. many, many transactions and blocks, no enterprise in the world can get registry of all blocks, like Craig Wright said, the best protection for anonimity is to much data generated like gigabyte blocks.

With possibility of deleting old blocks and even force first blocks to have a maximum time of some years like 10 or 20 years or less, we could have onchain big blocks decentralized and dont need layer 2 or layer 3 or layer 4 !

Would be layer 1 completely descentralized and guaranteed anonymity.

Firstly thanks for this topic that you have opened.  you are approaching the event from an interesting point of view. i like it. but you know that cryptocurrency and especially bitcoin privacy is in the foreground.  therefore, the final balance should not be visible.

Thank you for your comment, after think a while what about this:

If we can encrypt the transaction value maybe its possible to encrypt balance too in a way that only the owner of address can read the balance.

[cfbtcman]

How can you calculate/validate/generate that chainset with a pruned node?
If you dont have all the blocks in the node you need to ask the rest of information to other pruned node or to a complete node, but if you force people to clean balance in all the address present in genesis block you can delete genesis block forever and still calculate any bitcoin address balance without any pruned node and with a full and light to operate node.

True, you can't verify everything with information from pruned more. But i thought you focus only on reduce storage usage?

Additionally, your idea (That value can be cryptographed with blocks data) is very vague? Can your elaborate further?

And what is the problem of that? If you start to be able to delete complete old blocks you will delete GB of space, in the end you will be winning by far.

Fair enough, but you also need to consider bandwidth usage, propagation time and memory usage as well.

That chainstate needs to be charged from somewhere, if you only need to have access to last block move you could generate/validade a chainstate much faster.

Generation of chainstate (along with transaction verification) happens when user sync their nodes. The biggest advantage of chainstate is you have constant time access/complexity (should be O(log n)) rather than your idea which could be as fast as O(1) to O(n) which is painfully slow.

Actually the information is starting to grow as fast as the data manufacturing industry and that is a big problem in our days.
Thats why the core developers say big blocksizes are no solution, ironically they are creating a snow ball blockchain and dont want to implement deleting blocks

If we implement big blocks on-chain we would be generating so much information that no enterprise in future could save a record of everything, that would garantee anonymous bitcoin and if we could handle to delete old blocks the centralization would not happen.
Imagine that tomorrow all the people in facebook start to comunicate only with audio/video messages, how could facebook record all information?
They would waste more money in new disks than they have, would be impossible.

Firstly, i wonder exact size of block size you're talking about?

Government willing to burn their money to store all blocks to track criminal or deanonymize bitcoiner for their own agenda. Companies such as chainalysis would do that as well since they need it to run their business.

I dont want to delete that chainstate, but you need to agree that is not big thing, the data source is the same and to create it you always take more time than if you delete old blocks and you still save a lot of space in all the world nodes, saving space is only my target.

Once a node synced, you don't create chainstate, but update it which should be pretty fast. But again, if your goal is only save storage space, then pruning mode is enough.

You can still use prunned nodes to save space after saving space!

Craig Wright claims BSV will process 1TB blocks in 2 years, that seems huge, if we can delete old blocks and governments dont, they are f***, because cant record and trace so much mass of information.

The main idea could be saving space to be possible to keep decentralized blockchains even with Terabyte blocks.

[cfbtcman]

Bitcoin is one international coin and there is USA, but there is Russia too and China and North Korea, there is always problems of jurisdiction, they cant put the hands in Eduard Snowden, imagine controling bitcoin moves, if the people do it well they would just waste resources and they cant feed a "white elephant" all the life, look for US public debt!