Capitalism and the exploitation of labor

[Artemis3]

GM workers make $2 an hour in Mexico while they make around ten times more in the US.  Why are Americans paid ten times more for the same exact work producing the same exact vehicle?  I have heard claims that people are paid more when their jobs involve more skill, more risk, or more difficulty, but none of those are true here.  

Well it would also be easy to think that the Mexican’s deserve less because everything costs less in Mexico but GM actually turns around and sells the cars to Mexicans at the full American price without subtracting 80% from the labor costs.

And what is your "solution"? Point a gun to the GM owner and force him to, either sell the cars 80% less value in Mexico, or pay mexicans 80% more? Do you know where that leads? The more you intervene to remove "unfair" profits to capitalists, the less interested they will be in keeping the business afloat.

End result: GM closes, all the "low paid" mexicans back to the streets.

Workers control? Look how far that goes... Good luck. Its not impossible for cooperatives (which are still capitalist) to prosper, the majority fail. Many attribute it to the "unfair" market, but it was in fact their lack of efficiency. What, you wanted them to earn 80% more and still be competitive?

Ah the workers don't have the skill, lets put a bureaucrat to "guide" them... Yeah that will solve it... NOT. I know the results, i have seen them...

Keypoints about socialism:

• It destroys wealth, never make it.
• And it does to by force, never by free choice.

Therefore socialism is the opposite to freedom.

It is the workers decision, not yours, to work for GM at that wage. It is their right, and you want to take it from them, because you (who don't or shouldn't work there) don't like it. Socialism, in the inside, goes AGAINST workers wishes and interests.

In a free market society there are plenty of chances to get better wages, NONE by force. In a socialist economy, you get garbage wage, and you can do nothing about it, you HAVE TO take it, or else...

Of course the State should neither intervene the business, neither do anything to "save them". It goes both ways.

[BADecker]

The State should intervene... by non-intervention. Private membership associations (PMAs) are State approve organizations that are completely outside of State jurisdiction. And the State even says that they are.

Stand up with the laws and court cases that PMAs use, and the State says, Yes; we must back down, because it is our rules to back down in the cases of private organizations.

[TECSHARE]

Literacy requires capital.  Education requires capital.  Without capital, people would just be slaves to capitalists and literally wouldn't be able to move anywhere because all land would be owned.   This is why capitalism worked really well with free land and labor available for theft.   

The government holds capital on behalf of all people.  It is  the only thing keeping literally everything from being bought up and controled by capitalists.  The connundrum is that in a captialist economy, even the government is for sale.  What will they teach?  What will they build?  Which industries will they regulate and how?  All of those questions are answered by capital.

No. It literally doesn't. At most it requires time which is arguable as far as availability, but people don't lack free time. They lack the will to better themselves. Nothing is stopping people from educating themselves in a world with more information available than every in human history for free. The government is not the center of the universe, nor should it be.

I would ask you to address any of the arguments made in the article, but we all know you didn't read it, and if you did you wouldn't understand it, and if you did you would ignore it. Much easier to make some quick meaningless quip than discuss facts.

You're completely missing the point.

I'm pointing a direct contradiction between what you preach and what you do that's all.

Concerning the article, no one with a brain has anything to say about it. It's completely empty and without anything interesting. There is no reference to any source for the very good reason that it's only vague generalities said without any quote from Mein Kampf or a Hitler/Staline speech, there is no link to an actual policy or decision taken by any of them...

I can sum up the article easily: "Fascism and communism have the same roots and are using the same languages and asking to the same labor class to fight against the other one, accusing each other of the same evil".

Great. Care to bring anything or just to say vague shit?

Oh well good thing I have you here to tell me what my point is. How convenient you can just dismiss the article by saying "no one with a brain has anything to say about it" you aren't even trying any more. You are the epitome of self entitled, moral grandstanding, low information, high confidence retards. If this is your standard then I need not put any more effort into you than this.

[TECSHARE]

Oh well good thing I have you here to tell me what my point is. How convenient you can just dismiss the article by saying "no one with a brain has anything to say about it" you aren't even trying any more. You are the epitome of self entitled, moral grandstanding, low information, high confidence retards. If this is your standard then I need not put any more effort into you than this.

So you can put the article without adding anything, any claim, any argument. Simply the link.
But I can't answer I find this article empty and without anything substential?

Talk about double standards.

Yes, I am sure it is just a coincidence you do this often and declare yourself correct while making no argument to the contrary. Double standards. That's funny.

[mOgliE]

Yes, I am sure it is just a coincidence you do this often and declare yourself correct while making no argument to the contrary. Double standards. That's funny.

Ok TECSHARE let's agree on something. You stop nagging me and I stop nagging you.

Our "exchanges" are useless trolling only taking space for nothing on this forum. We no longer argue we just... Insult each other. I don't remember last time you brought anything close to a fact in one of our "argument" and I'm sure you have the same feeling.

It's not productive, not interesting and I bet everyone reading us have the same feeling.

I'll delete my previous "nagging" posts. I suggest you do the same so we keep the P&S section clean of our useless fights.

[TECSHARE]

Yes, I am sure it is just a coincidence you do this often and declare yourself correct while making no argument to the contrary. Double standards. That's funny.

Ok TECSHARE let's agree on something. You stop nagging me and I stop nagging you.

Our "exchanges" are useless trolling only taking space for nothing on this forum. We no longer argue we just... Insult each other. I don't remember last time you brought anything close to a fact in one of our "argument" and I'm sure you have the same feeling.

It's not productive, not interesting and I bet everyone reading us have the same feeling.

I'll delete my previous "nagging" posts. I suggest you do the same so we keep the P&S section clean of our useless fights.

Lol. Its so cute you think this bothers me even one little bit. Also I did present facts, just a few posts ago. I am sorry you have trouble keeping your emotions and your logic separated. If you don't like the tone I take with you perhaps you should check your own first.

[mOgliE]

Lol. Its so cute you think this bothers me even one little bit. Also I did present facts, just a few posts ago. I am sorry you have trouble keeping your emotions and your logic separated. If you don't like the tone I take with you perhaps you should check your own first.

I don't think you're the one annoyed but I think our useless exchanges are greatly annoying the potential readers of P&S section.

And please quote one single fact you've given here...

[coins4commies]

No. It literally doesn't. At most it requires time which is arguable as far as availability, but people don't lack free time. They lack the will to better themselves. Nothing is stopping people from educating themselves in a world with more information available than every in human history for free. The government is not the center of the universe, nor should it be.

If people have to use their time to work in order to meet bare necessities, they no longer have time for education.  Time itself is capital.  We sell time for money and buy other people's time with capital.  Capitalists have more time.  In terms of labor time, someone like Bezos has thousands  (or is it millions?) of hours in a day. 

You can count this up by adding up all of the time it took to create the things they consume in one day. 

The information you say is "available" requires capital to access.  Where does the book come from? Where does the device come from? Where does the internet connection come from?  The best answer is public libraries provided by government, of course.

[Artemis3]

No. It literally doesn't. At most it requires time which is arguable as far as availability, but people don't lack free time. They lack the will to better themselves. Nothing is stopping people from educating themselves in a world with more information available than every in human history for free. The government is not the center of the universe, nor should it be.

If people have to use their time to work in order to meet bare necessities, they no longer have time for education.  Time itself is capital.  We sell time for money and buy other people's time with capital.  Capitalists have more time.  In terms of labor time, someone like Bezos has thousands  (or is it millions?) of hours in a day. 

You can count this up by adding up all of the time it took to create the things they consume in one day. 

The information you say is "available" requires capital to access.  Where does the book come from? Where does the device come from? Where does the internet connection come from?  The best answer is public libraries provided by government, of course.

If people have to use their time waiting in lines in order to meet bare necessities, they no longer have time for education, or work...

Which one is worse?

Living conditions in capitalist societies are far better than the collective misery socialist economies produce. The less State there is, the better.

[TECSHARE]

No. It literally doesn't. At most it requires time which is arguable as far as availability, but people don't lack free time. They lack the will to better themselves. Nothing is stopping people from educating themselves in a world with more information available than every in human history for free. The government is not the center of the universe, nor should it be.

If people have to use their time to work in order to meet bare necessities, they no longer have time for education.  Time itself is capital.  We sell time for money and buy other people's time with capital.  Capitalists have more time.  In terms of labor time, someone like Bezos has thousands  (or is it millions?) of hours in a day. 

You can count this up by adding up all of the time it took to create the things they consume in one day. 

The information you say is "available" requires capital to access.  Where does the book come from? Where does the device come from? Where does the internet connection come from?  The best answer is public libraries provided by government, of course.

You contradict yourself. You demand all these things must cost money, and you yourself gave a good example of free use. Also not all libraries exist solely on government funding so.. not exactly. Also there are access plans as low as $20 a month I have seen, or even $1 at McDonalds to get wifi. There is no reason people can't afford these things with minimal amounts of effort. Your argument is moot. The government is not our savior, it is our jailer.

[mOgliE]

You contradict yourself. You demand all these things must cost money, and you yourself gave a good example of free use. Also not all libraries exist solely on government funding so.. not exactly. Also there are access plans as low as $20 a month I have seen, or even $1 at McDonalds to get wifi. There is no reason people can't afford these things with minimal amounts of effort. Your argument is moot. The government is not our savior, it is our jailer.

You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

[criptix]

This style is susceptible to strawman so let me know where I am wrong in my assumptions.  Let me know where you disagree.  Let me know fi there is a “C” option.

If you subscribe to capitalism, it seems as though you would subscribe to one of these philosophies towards labor

A. People are paid wages according to the “fair” market value of their skill and the amount of value they add
B. People do not “deserve” fair wages because no one is forcing them to accept a job for an “unfair” wage.

If you subscribe to A, then you run into issues with the variable cost of labor.  Producing a Chevy Blazer, for example, requires the same labor in the US as it does in Mexico. Therefore, it also requires the same amount of skill.  Workers in each country add the exact same value to the operation.

American Chevy Blazer vs Mexican Chevy Blazer



GM workers make $2 an hour in Mexico while they make around ten times more in the US.  Why are Americans paid ten times more for the same exact work producing the same exact vehicle?  I have heard claims that people are paid more when their jobs involve more skill, more risk, or more difficulty, but none of those are true here.  

Well it would also be easy to think that the Mexican’s deserve less because everything costs less in Mexico but GM actually turns around and sells the cars to Mexicans at the full American price without subtracting 80% from the labor costs.  

If you answered A, and subscribe to market forces, then the Mexican’s are inherently owed ten times less for the same work and inversely, Mexicans inherently owe GM ten times more of the fruits of their labor than that of Americans.  

If you subscribe to B, you don’t believe the same work deserves the same pay to begin with and you think people have a choice, then you would seemingly be suggesting the Mexicans simply walk across the border and get the same job paying ten times more.  Well the Mexicans aren’t free to walk across the border and get the same job.  They are forced to work on their side of the border.  This is how capitalism uses borders to exploit labor.   How can you have a free market if labor cannot freely move?

Many people would also say “GM assumes all of the risk and is therefore entitled to run the company however they see fit.  If the cars don’t sell, they are stuck with the losses” but even that isn’t true.

December 19, 2008: President Bush approved a bailout plan and gave General Motors and Chrysler $13.4 billion in financing from TARP (Troubled Assets Relief Program) funds, as well as $4 billion to be "withdrawn later".

So we’re talking about socialized risk but no one socializes GM profits going forward.    How is GM assuming any risk when the government considers them "too big to fail"? The high paid executives not only assume no risk of failure, but seemingly get high payouts regardless of how negatively their incompetencies affect the work force and economy overall.  

 3 months later…

Rick Wagoner will leave his post as CEO of bailed-out General Motors with a $20 million retirement package, the company's financial filings show.
Under Wagoner's leadership, GM lost tens of billions of dollars, took billions in taxpayer-financed aid, and cut tens of thousands of jobs, including announced plans to cut 47,000 employees by the end of 2009.

I thought executives were paid for their skills and unique ability to "make the company go".  I thought they were paid more because they assumed all the risk.  Neither are true in this case.  The opposite is true.  Workers assumed all of the risk and the CEO took home all of the pay.  The public bailed the company out in order to keep the jobs which are now being shipped to Mexico.  


http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jan/03/gm-now-top-automaker-in-mexico-as-it-idles-us-fact/

The race to the bottom or why free markets arent free.

I do not believe that there exists a free market capitalism today - once a good idea it developed to a monster based on lobbyism and nepotism which lead us to an oligarchy reigning supreme.

[_Miracle]

Neither the Mexican market nor the American market are completely free markets.

This is inherently how capitalism works though.  Companies like GM accumulate capital and buy influence over the government to shift the market in their favor.  The mythological free market cannot exist under capitalism because capital buys influence.  A company who does not actively seek to all means of shifting the markets in their favor is bound to fail in a capitalist society.

coins4commies,
you are not describing capitalism: you are describing crony-capitalism with high degrees of government interference.
We are not experiencing free markets because of crony-capitalism with high degrees of government interference.


And yes that is an inherent potential flaw in capitalism and socialism and is the flaw in communism and all highly centralized systems.
We have given too much power into the hands of corporations and reduced the effects of real consequences when they make sociopathic decisions
 but it is something that can be cured with adjustments to corporate law and a little more attention paid by consumers (us).

[coins4commies]

GM workers make $2 an hour in Mexico while they make around ten times more in the US.  Why are Americans paid ten times more for the same exact work producing the same exact vehicle?  I have heard claims that people are paid more when their jobs involve more skill, more risk, or more difficulty, but none of those are true here.  

Well it would also be easy to think that the Mexican’s deserve less because everything costs less in Mexico but GM actually turns around and sells the cars to Mexicans at the full American price without subtracting 80% from the labor costs.

And what is your "solution"? Point a gun to the GM owner and force him to, either sell the cars 80% less value in Mexico, or pay mexicans 80% more? Do you know where that leads? The more you intervene to remove "unfair" profits to capitalists, the less interested they will be in keeping the business afloat.

End result: GM closes, all the "low paid" mexicans back to the streets.

Workers control? Look how far that goes... Good luck. Its not impossible for cooperatives (which are still capitalist) to prosper, the majority fail. Many attribute it to the "unfair" market, but it was in fact their lack of efficiency. What, you wanted them to earn 80% more and still be competitive?

Ah the workers don't have the skill, lets put a bureaucrat to "guide" them... Yeah that will solve it... NOT. I know the results, i have seen them...

Keypoints about socialism:

• It destroys wealth, never make it.
• And it does to by force, never by free choice.

Therefore socialism is the opposite to freedom.

It is the workers decision, not yours, to work for GM at that wage. It is their right, and you want to take it from them, because you (who don't or shouldn't work there) don't like it. Socialism, in the inside, goes AGAINST workers wishes and interests.

In a free market society there are plenty of chances to get better wages, NONE by force. In a socialist economy, you get garbage wage, and you can do nothing about it, you HAVE TO take it, or else...

Of course the State should neither intervene the business, neither do anything to "save them". It goes both ways.

The solution would have been to not have an owner in the first place.  The only shareholders should be stakeholders and that way the interests of the company would always consider the interests of all stakeholders, most of whom are workers. 

The current shareholders have no skill or efficiency.  Shareholders hire people to run the company.  That doesn't have to change.  "worker control" is not a literal sense but in terms of power hierarchy.  Workers have no interest in their company being run inefficiently.

The socialist economy you describe is nothing like anything socialists are advocating.  Complete misrepresentation. 

I mentioned programs like TARP in the OP.  Those sort of programs could invest in builidng cooperatives instead of corporate welfare.  Mondragon in Spain is a perfect example and it is much more efficient than a company like GM.

[TECSHARE]

You contradict yourself. You demand all these things must cost money, and you yourself gave a good example of free use. Also not all libraries exist solely on government funding so.. not exactly. Also there are access plans as low as $20 a month I have seen, or even $1 at McDonalds to get wifi. There is no reason people can't afford these things with minimal amounts of effort. Your argument is moot. The government is not our savior, it is our jailer.

You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!

[mOgliE]

You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!

Everything we have different is highlighted in this discussion.

Your double standard first: when I say poor people can't do much about their situation it's bullshit, when you say "Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now." it's a "fact".

Your absolutely lack of empathy and your incapacity to put yourself in the shoes of anyone in a different situation.

Your arrogance and contempt towards anyone you deem "too stupid" or "too lazy".


Anyone having such speech should be put in the life of a really poor personn just for a year. We'll see how your incredible mind will allow you to climb your way back to the top of the American dream...

[TECSHARE]

You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!

Everything we have different is highlighted in this discussion.

Your double standard first: when I say poor people can't do much about their situation it's bullshit, when you say "Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now." it's a "fact".

Your absolutely lack of empathy and your incapacity to put yourself in the shoes of anyone in a different situation.

Your arrogance and contempt towards anyone you deem "too stupid" or "too lazy".


Anyone having such speech should be put in the life of a really poor personn just for a year. We'll see how your incredible mind will allow you to climb your way back to the top of the American dream...

I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.

[mOgliE]

I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.

And where is the lack of logic in saying anyone working 40 hours a week on a physically demanding job can't really take the time and energy needed to step back and improve his life/skills/conditions?

You seem to say that people need to take care of themselves and government shouldn't provide to losers that are too lazy.

What you miss though it's that no "socialist" policy gives everything to people. Those policies are here to allow people to be in a less precarious position and to open new possibilities for them.

But government won't do the studies for you. Government won't give you new skills and better job. Government won't create your own company.

No. But government can grant you free college. Government can enact better work conditions and wages. Government can provide trainings for people already working. Government can insure you financially so that creating your company doesn't mean you risk everything.

The goal of socialism isn't to do everything for people. It's to give people as much possibilities as it can.

[TECSHARE]

I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.

And where is the lack of logic in saying anyone working 40 hours a week on a physically demanding job can't really take the time and energy needed to step back and improve his life/skills/conditions?

You seem to say that people need to take care of themselves and government shouldn't provide to losers that are too lazy.

What you miss though it's that no "socialist" policy gives everything to people. Those policies are here to allow people to be in a less precarious position and to open new possibilities for them.

But government won't do the studies for you. Government won't give you new skills and better job. Government won't create your own company.

No. But government can grant you free college. Government can enact better work conditions and wages. Government can provide trainings for people already working. Government can insure you financially so that creating your company doesn't mean you risk everything.

The goal of socialism isn't to do everything for people. It's to give people as much possibilities as it can.

You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

[mOgliE]

You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

Your vision of society and humankind is simply wrong and I can't do anything against that.

Not wrong as in "moraly wrong", simply wrong as in "stupidly wrong".

You believe in responsability, freedom and meritocravy. Those three things are believes and nothing more. They're the base of the American dream and the tools that hold current society together. All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

I can only advise you to try to read Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste of Pierre Bourdieu which would, rather elegantly, demonstrate how the whole "rational choice" and "freedom" ideas are complete fallacies.

Anyway we've diggen far enough. We now know exactly where is the difference between you and me. Not much more to discuss unless you're ready to open yourself to new ideas or ready to support your core beliefs.