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Author Topic: Bitcoin developers wants to lower blocksize to 300kb to push LN  (Read 320 times)
thecodebear
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February 14, 2019, 01:40:01 AM
 #21

*snip*

Like I said, this is a hugely debatable topic. I myself haven't decided if I am really for this or not, but I'm leaning significantly more against the "no" side.

Based on the past tweets of Luke DashJr, he's always been a person that heavily prefers decentralization than scalability. Just like some bitcoin devs, he's leaning a lot more on the "big transactions on layer 1, smaller transactions on layer 2". I would somewhat agree on that, if only LN was ready. And yes like you said, it isn't really ready yet. His proposed solution is a temporary blocksize decrease by the way; but yea, I'm still not 100% decided.


Is it debated?? This is the first time I've ever heard of this idea of decreasing the blocksize. Sounds like its just this one guy who happens to be a bitcoin dev who has this absurd idea. Pretty sure its not close to a hugely debated topic outside of this one guy's mind.

Anyway it doesn't really matter. Nobody would accept this and other bitcoin devs have already called the idea lunacy essentially, which is what it is.
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February 14, 2019, 01:48:44 AM
 #22

Is it debated?? This is the first time I've ever heard of this idea of decreasing the blocksize. Sounds like its just this one guy who happens to be a bitcoin dev who has this absurd idea. Pretty sure its not close to a hugely debated topic outside of this one guy's mind.

What I meant by saying the topic being debatable is that the topic is very arguable; because though I'm for this blocksize decrease like I said(because I don't think a blocksize decrease is going to get people to run full nodes anyway), the sort of proposal is not 100% nonsense. I wasn't saying that it was literally debated. Focusing on decentralization is good, but this decrease is a little bit too much that could hurdle adoption.

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February 14, 2019, 02:55:55 AM
 #23

haha, i was wondering when someone is going to post this here ever since the drama began Cheesy

I would expect this discussion to quickly fade away just like it did last time.

the discussions will remain for much longer as they have been around for a long time before this. it is just that there was some drama on Twitter recently which these shitty news sites are picking up and turning it into a big deal just because they are desperate for traffic.

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February 14, 2019, 02:59:36 AM
 #24

Is it debated?? This is the first time I've ever heard of this idea of decreasing the blocksize. Sounds like its just this one guy who happens to be a bitcoin dev who has this absurd idea. Pretty sure its not close to a hugely debated topic outside of this one guy's mind.

What I meant by saying the topic being debatable is that the topic is very arguable; because though I'm for this blocksize decrease like I said(because I don't think a blocksize decrease is going to get people to run full nodes anyway), the sort of proposal is not 100% nonsense. I wasn't saying that it was literally debated. Focusing on decentralization is good, but this decrease is a little bit too much that could hurdle adoption.

It absolutely is 100% nonsense. Proposing to do the opposite of what bitcoin needs is nonsense. Period.
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February 14, 2019, 03:16:07 AM
 #25

Is it debated?? This is the first time I've ever heard of this idea of decreasing the blocksize. Sounds like its just this one guy who happens to be a bitcoin dev who has this absurd idea. Pretty sure its not close to a hugely debated topic outside of this one guy's mind.

What I meant by saying the topic being debatable is that the topic is very arguable; because though I'm for this blocksize decrease like I said(because I don't think a blocksize decrease is going to get people to run full nodes anyway), the sort of proposal is not 100% nonsense. I wasn't saying that it was literally debated. Focusing on decentralization is good, but this decrease is a little bit too much that could hurdle adoption.

It absolutely is 100% nonsense. Proposing to do the opposite of what bitcoin needs is nonsense. Period.

it seems to me like you have just heard about Luke for the first time!
he has been around for a long time and as far as i can remember majority of his ideas are nonsensical. if you found this little one strange then you should never check out his other stuff or your head would explode Wink
the last biggest one was BIP148 in my opinion which he was pushing for while misleading people into believing forking bitcoin with no hashrate support is ok and is not going to split bitcoin.
fortunately the decentralized bitcoin system has always rejected silly ideas no matter who proposes them.

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February 14, 2019, 05:44:58 AM
 #26

BIP148 in my opinion which he was pushing for while misleading people into believing forking bitcoin with no hashrate support is ok and is not going to split bitcoin.

actually luke JR in late 2015 proposed segwit2mb could activate without splitting the network.
Luke then backed out and pretended he was nothing more than a insignificant janitor/chimnet swep very early 2016 and could not possible code segwit2mb into core.

then came the segwit1x and they tried that in november 2016 hoping to activate by christmas 2016.. yet by spring 2017 it only got 35%, because it was only segwit1x. not the segwit2mb(2015 agreement)

what came next was to ensight some social discord with a 3 card shuffle trick.
the bip148 did actually occur on august first. the blockchain itself can attest to that.
but your explanation of it is wrong.
bip148 is about mandating that hashrate flag approval for segwit1x or find themselves thrown off the network on august first.
meaning 148 was a AT REAL CODE LEVEL a controversial hardfork(pre activation mandated approval or else) to fake approval for segwit1x (but social dramatised as a 'user assisted soft fork'... they even made hats to hide the real controversy it caused)

another of the card tricks was the investors paying luke and samson mow and others to get segwit active. falsely offered a segwit2x(not segwit2mb). this was the NYA where they employed BLOQ devs to write a client.. but this was not a real proposal to get 2x active, but a ploy to get 1x active by saying 2x would only activate later if 1x gets activation first.

the other card trick was bitcoin cash. as the alternative choice network to funnel x1 opposers off the network, making 1x opposers feel they had somewhere to go to rather than fight off 1x.

if you follow the portfolio of DCG and see blockstream, bloq, NYA agreed parties, and yes even ver, were all tied togther.. youll see the 3 card shuffle that got 1x activated ven though there was 35%-65% controversy over it.

anyway. moving on. years later bitcoin scaling hasnt really happened we are stil below the 600k transactions a day threshold(7tx/s) and it seems all the devs and the DCG portfolio care about now is the commercialisation of LN to give investors returns on investment. while trying to 'deburden' bitcoin of utility.

anyway, i think that this social drama of lukes this week is just a psy-op of reverse psychology to later say that onchain scaling cant happen because luke proved that devs have no power.. yet. we all know that now core is in power. that if devs were serious about something they could easily pull the pin and activate whatever they like.. as shown august 2017

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February 14, 2019, 09:49:08 AM
 #27

Honestly, I think that´s not a bad idea at all. The discussion to lower the block was even around Satoshi times.

 "Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices." -Satoshi.

If you think about how many people running a full node.. The Blockchain is already 200+ GB.
If you can spend millions for purchasing the mining machines in a farm do you really think they do have money to accommodate a terabyte hard disk for the whole process, what is the big deal about it, in the initial phase there were not much transaction and hence we did not need to have a bigger block size and that does not mean that they should not increase when the transaction increases in the future.
I only have one doubt regarding the LN, how can you trust the people behind those network, we have seen exchanges functioning for a while and running off with the money, how can we be certain that nothing like that happens in those nodes.

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February 14, 2019, 05:02:08 PM
 #28

Is it debated?? This is the first time I've ever heard of this idea of decreasing the blocksize. Sounds like its just this one guy who happens to be a bitcoin dev who has this absurd idea. Pretty sure its not close to a hugely debated topic outside of this one guy's mind.

What I meant by saying the topic being debatable is that the topic is very arguable; because though I'm for this blocksize decrease like I said(because I don't think a blocksize decrease is going to get people to run full nodes anyway), the sort of proposal is not 100% nonsense. I wasn't saying that it was literally debated. Focusing on decentralization is good, but this decrease is a little bit too much that could hurdle adoption.

It absolutely is 100% nonsense. Proposing to do the opposite of what bitcoin needs is nonsense. Period.

it seems to me like you have just heard about Luke for the first time!
he has been around for a long time and as far as i can remember majority of his ideas are nonsensical. if you found this little one strange then you should never check out his other stuff or your head would explode Wink
the last biggest one was BIP148 in my opinion which he was pushing for while misleading people into believing forking bitcoin with no hashrate support is ok and is not going to split bitcoin.
fortunately the decentralized bitcoin system has always rejected silly ideas no matter who proposes them.


Yes absolutely this is the first time I've ever heard of this guy. I don't like personally pay attention to bitcoin devs. I have no idea who any them are outside of seeing some of their names occasionally in articles about bitcoin's early days. I don't social media follow people. Never heard of this guy in my life before yesterday.

Don't worry I would have no intention of ever looking into what else he has said or have the slightest care about him. Clearly from this first time I've ever heard about it is obvious the guy is crazy.
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February 14, 2019, 05:05:48 PM
 #29

Honestly, I think that´s not a bad idea at all. The discussion to lower the block was even around Satoshi times.

 "Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices." -Satoshi.

If you think about how many people running a full node.. The Blockchain is already 200+ GB.
If you can spend millions for purchasing the mining machines in a farm do you really think they do have money to accommodate a terabyte hard disk for the whole process, what is the big deal about it, in the initial phase there were not much transaction and hence we did not need to have a bigger block size and that does not mean that they should not increase when the transaction increases in the future.
I only have one doubt regarding the LN, how can you trust the people behind those network, we have seen exchanges functioning for a while and running off with the money, how can we be certain that nothing like that happens in those nodes.


That's not how lightning network works. If they run off with the money on their nodes, they are running off with THEIR OWN money.

Totally agree with your first statement. To anyone going through the expense of buying mining equipment, buying the storage for the blockchain is nothing. And yeah gradually bigger blocks will be needed and it makes perfect sense to increase it, but do it smartly over time as network speeds improve and whatnot so that it doesn't promote centralization. Last thing Bitcoin needs to do is become Bitcoin Cash (which is begging to be centralized if only anyone would ever adopt it).
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February 14, 2019, 05:24:27 PM
 #30

I think it's a bad solution, lowering blocksize will only cause the network to be denser. maybe the impact will be like before, many transactions are delayed very long.

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February 14, 2019, 07:17:29 PM
 #31

That's not how lightning network works. If they run off with the money on their nodes, they are running off with THEIR OWN money.
might be worth you checking on that, you'll be shocked by what you find. LN is multisig.
even devs themselves have admitted they lost funds, and their the ones coding it
there are many ways a user can lose value in LN due to others.

Totally agree with your first statement. To anyone going through the expense of buying mining equipment, buying the storage for the blockchain is nothing. And yeah gradually bigger blocks will be needed and it makes perfect sense to increase it, but do it smartly over time as network speeds improve and whatnot so that it doesn't promote centralization.

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February 14, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
 #32

https://bitcoinexchangeguide.com/btc-developer-causes-controversy-suggesting-300kb-new-block-size-fork-for-lightning-network/

A bitcoin developer actually wants to LOWER !!!!  Huh Angry the blocksize to under a third its current size in order to try to artificially force people to adopt the still not yet ready LN by making bitcoin worse.


Seriously, what the hell is wrong with people in the crypto world?!?

Discuss.
Many people are trying to make changes and help Bitcoin work to achieve new technologies that can compare to existing platforms. This caused everything to turned upside down, and the market was negatively affected.
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February 15, 2019, 12:54:23 AM
 #33

That's not how lightning network works. If they run off with the money on their nodes, they are running off with THEIR OWN money.
might be worth you checking on that, you'll be shocked by what you find. LN is multisig.
even devs themselves have admitted they lost funds, and their the ones coding it
there are many ways a user can lose value in LN due to others.

Totally agree with your first statement. To anyone going through the expense of buying mining equipment, buying the storage for the blockchain is nothing. And yeah gradually bigger blocks will be needed and it makes perfect sense to increase it, but do it smartly over time as network speeds improve and whatnot so that it doesn't promote centralization.


i've done my research. thanks. LN does not run like an exchange, which is what this guy was implying, where at any time someone could just run off with your money. That's simply not true. Otherwise LN wouldn't be a solution to anything.
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February 18, 2019, 02:00:25 AM
 #34

That's not how lightning network works. If they run off with the money on their nodes, they are running off with THEIR OWN money.
might be worth you checking on that, you'll be shocked by what you find. LN is multisig.
even devs themselves have admitted they lost funds, and their the ones coding it
there are many ways a user can lose value in LN due to others.

Totally agree with your first statement. To anyone going through the expense of buying mining equipment, buying the storage for the blockchain is nothing. And yeah gradually bigger blocks will be needed and it makes perfect sense to increase it, but do it smartly over time as network speeds improve and whatnot so that it doesn't promote centralization.


i've done my research. thanks. LN does not run like an exchange, which is what this guy was implying, where at any time someone could just run off with your money. That's simply not true. Otherwise LN wouldn't be a solution to anything.
firstly
learn multisig, learn revoke codes/punishments. learn blackmail attempts learn co-signing.
there are multiple ways to run off with funds.

here ill even pre-empt you with an attack vector when schnorr is incorporated

imagine a multysig. person A and B
person A believes it to be a 2-2 multisig channel of duel/even control. which is the bases of LN's trust of mutual trust-mutual destruction.
2 parties have to agree else there is no agreement
both agree both win
both dont agree both lose

now. imagine its not an actual 2-2 but in reality is a 2-3.. where by person B has 2 keys and A only has 1
suddenly B has control. and guess what A wont even realise it. A wont even be able to tell who signed what.
whether it was a 2-2 where A got hacked and someone stole A's key or if B did make a 2-3 under schnorr and hid the 3rd key

.. there are other ways to mess and steal funds right now under LN. LN devs know about a few of them. and yes the LN devs themselves have mentioned how they (even while they are the devs) have been victims to thefts

secondly
LN is not a solution to anything. its just another network/service/choice. it should never b though of as a solution to bitcoin.
thos that call it a solution. or call it the only way forward are those that have already given up on bitcoin and think alt networks/centralised services/fiat-esq business models are superior than bitcoin

lastly
LN does/will function like an exchange. heck in 2012-13 i was arbitraging btc between 2 exchanges without the blockchain, by doing so with exchanges features using their locked reserves.(btc-e/mtgox/bitstamp codes)

locking funds up with others. (custodian)
using the confirmed 8 decimal blockchain UTXO, to then create lists of non-blockchain tx's(12 decimal) in some google/mysql database(exchanges have a separate 'blance/trade' database thats not blockchain)
atomic swaps(market orders)

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February 18, 2019, 02:35:52 AM
 #35

The point of view of one developer though can't really change anything unless he convince a lot more.

I believe the question we should be asking is why exactly that developers wants to do that right now. Why not wait a bit more and then do a movement like that? When it could possibly be necessary, not right now.

I particularly agree that it might be needed in the future but not yet.

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February 18, 2019, 04:18:10 AM
 #36

The point of view of one developer though can't really change anything unless he convince a lot more.

I believe the question we should be asking is why exactly that developers wants to do that right now. Why not wait a bit more and then do a movement like that? When it could possibly be necessary, not right now.

I particularly agree that it might be needed in the future but not yet.

because there is a big conference/convention thing happening soon where all the devs and merchants and miners get together and they try to discuss possible movements forward.

the thing is if certain devs can distract the topics. and get merchants and miners only talking about staying as is or decreasing. .. the devs win the true desire of not increasing.

they tried it before by trying to turn a comfortable and acceptable growth(small regular increases like 2009-2015 had). but then exaggerated it into a myth of "gigabytes by midnight" to sway even topics of small comfortable SCALING to not get discussed.

now i believe they are gonna try the opposite try to make the options only stay same or drop down.. just to avoid any comfortable SCALING onchain..

and if that fails. the devs will just pretend that they are just mere chimney sweeps and have no coding talent to implement anything that opposes the core roadmap

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February 18, 2019, 06:44:21 AM
 #37

We need another Bull run for people to see how ridiculous this suggestion is. During the last Bull run, the small Block size was one of the things that were hampering progress and adoption. I agree that spamming of the network to push for a fork, was also part of this problem at the time, but it might just happen again.

The Lightning Network is not even close to readiness for mainstream adoption and smaller Block sizes will harm Bitcoin if the LN fails and small Block sizes were implemented.  Tongue

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February 19, 2019, 04:09:15 AM
 #38

We need another Bull run for people to see how ridiculous this suggestion is. During the last Bull run, the small Block size was one of the things that were hampering progress and adoption. I agree that spamming of the network to push for a fork, was also part of this problem at the time, but it might just happen again.

of course it'll happen again, since there are still big stakeholders interested in lowering fees on the network. just like we saw in 2016-17, they'll use high fees as a political ploy to fork bitcoin.

but are you sure that small blocks were hampering adoption? there were certainly some complaints---particularly from a small group of very loud big blockers---but i don't think there's evidence that small blocks ever caused adoption to slow down. i believe a great deal of bitcoin adoption is speculative (investment-based), and i don't think investors care much about fees. and among regular users, there's plenty of people who are willing to pay higher fees too. (especially if offchain solutions like LN exist)

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February 19, 2019, 04:23:51 AM
Last edit: February 19, 2019, 04:34:29 AM by franky1
 #39

We need another Bull run for people to see how ridiculous this suggestion is. During the last Bull run, the small Block size was one of the things that were hampering progress and adoption. I agree that spamming of the network to push for a fork, was also part of this problem at the time, but it might just happen again.

of course it'll happen again, since there are still big stakeholders interested in lowering fees on the network. just like we saw in 2016-17, they'll use high fees as a political ploy to fork bitcoin.

but are you sure that small blocks were hampering adoption? there were certainly some complaints---particularly from a small group of very loud big blockers---but i don't think there's evidence that small blocks ever caused adoption to slow down. i believe a great deal of bitcoin adoption is speculative (investment-based), and i don't think investors care much about fees. and among regular users, there's plenty of people who are willing to pay higher fees too. (especially if offchain solutions like LN exist)

anyone saying they would ever pay extra for something, has a motive.
would you ever go to a car dealership and see a car for $30k. and be like.. i dont like the price of the car. so can i have the exact same car but ill pay you $200k for it

would you ever go to a house landlord and see a house for $3k a month. and be like.. i dont like the price of the rent. so can i have the exact same house but ill pay you $20k for it

you can smell the alterier motive, especially if they then go on and say they will use another network to pay less.. and promote how other networks are cheaper and such.
if they wanna pay extra. then they should be the ones that dont use LN. they should put their fee's where their mouth is, stay on the bitcoin network and pay extra if they truly desire seeing fee's rise.

not fee war UP the bitcoin network for others. and then they themselves run off to other networks.

imagine an analogy of transport networks (trains and buses)

its like a bus network. and some train company comes along spouting how buses have issues. but the train driver will happily pay more for buses if buses just up their fee's..
so buses up their fee's and the train driver then just goes and drives a train around giving out cheap tickets telling people to get off the bus as its expensive and slow

then some numbskull bus driver thinks another way to raise up bus fee's is to turn a double decker bus into a single decker bus.. then if it all happens. he then goes and gets a job on the trainline AND gets a back hander from the companie investing in trainlines

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February 19, 2019, 04:28:47 AM
 #40

but are you sure that small blocks were hampering adoption? there were certainly some complaints---particularly from a small group of very loud big blockers---but i don't think there's evidence that small blocks ever caused adoption to slow down. i believe a great deal of bitcoin adoption is speculative (investment-based), and i don't think investors care much about fees. and among regular users, there's plenty of people who are willing to pay higher fees too. (especially if offchain solutions like LN exist)

I remember a plenty of posts from dabblers screaming about how a massive chunk of their dabble was lost in the sending so I think yes to an extent. If your first toe dip results in much of your play evaporating you're going to be turned off for quite some time, if not for good. Enough narked minnows is the same as one big swinging dick.

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