Need community opinion regarding negative feedback.

[mikeywith]

This user > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=228806

I have been following his post from day 1, all he does is somehow shill a most likely fake miner called swiss miner that allegedly does 80TH at less than 1500w.

They are just a bunch of guys in Bulgaria, selling what's called a SWISS miner that's performance is about 300% better than the best miner on planet earth at this moment.

for non-miners ; this is more like selling a flying car at the price of a broken scooter.


chances of these guys being legit are slim to nothing.

while we don't have any solid proof against them YET, it's pretty much safe to assume that they about to scam newbies who don't know how the mining thing works.

and this guy "vb2005" who is a member since 2014 but only woke up this year to shill these guys seems to me like he is one of them, or at least shilling them , on purpose or not is something i am not sure of.

i would like to know what do you guys think? do you think it's fair that i tagged him ? or am i being very conservative here?

[1714921443]

1714921443

[1714921443]

1714921443

[1714921443]

1714921443

[suchmoon]

Hardware "miracles" like that are scams until proven otherwise. That's all there is to it.

It's a judgement call whether a shill deserves neg trust, but this one is quite aggressive, not merely saying "I bought it" but trying to dismiss valid criticism.

[ChrisLandin]

Hardware "miracles" like that are scams until proven otherwise. That's all there is to it.

It's a judgement call whether a shill deserves neg trust, but this one is quite aggressive, not merely saying "I bought it" but trying to dismiss valid criticism.

.. and to add.. a DT1 like Suchmoon should be the person that tags him. Nobody can see your tag Mikey because you aren’t DT2 or 1

[suchmoon]

.. and to add.. a DT1 like Suchmoon should be the person that tags him. Nobody can see your tag Mikey because you aren’t DT2 or 1

I have a hunch that you're wrong about that.

[ChrisLandin]

.. and to add.. a DT1 like Suchmoon should be the person that tags him. Nobody can see your tag Mikey because you aren’t DT2 or 1

I have a hunch that you're wrong about that.

You’re right. Just noticed. Yikes.

[mikeywith]

Hardware "miracles" like that are scams until proven otherwise. That's all there is to it.

It's a judgement call whether a shill deserves neg trust, but this one is quite aggressive, not merely saying "I bought it" but trying to dismiss valid criticism.

this is my main concern, he seems to desperately try to protect those guys, showing up after 5 years of inactivity only to shill a scam is a concern to me, i wouldn't say that he is certainly one of them, but chances are , HE IS !.

this is one of his desperate attempt to make those kids seem legit

BTW Bulgarians are very good at maths and informatics - so i will not be surprised if the miner is real.

i mean you can't be shilling so hard if you are not getting a piece of the cake. !

anyway he stated that he ordered the miners and that they should be there soon, and he will post his "honest" review. based on whatever review he has, we should be able to tell for sure.

i will revise my feedback based on his review.

[Rambotnic]

Hardware "miracles" like that are scams until proven otherwise. That's all there is to it.

It's a judgement call whether a shill deserves neg trust, but this one is quite aggressive, not merely saying "I bought it" but trying to dismiss valid criticism.

Everyone is not guilty until proven otherwise you jerk.
Learn how the world working outside internet.
"scam until proven otherwise" what an idiot.

[mikeywith]

Everyone is not guilty until proven otherwise you jerk.
Learn how the world working outside internet.
"scam until proven otherwise" what an idiot.

But we are inside the internet, the exact opposite is right.


I don't know if you know about mining, but use your common sense, would you trust someone selling a brand new lambo for 10,000$ on the internet?

[Rambotnic]

Everyone is not guilty until proven otherwise you jerk.
Learn how the world working outside internet.
"scam until proven otherwise" what an idiot.

But we are inside the internet, the exact opposite is right.


I don't know if you know about mining, but use your common sense, would you trust someone selling a brand new lambo for 10,000$ on the internet?

Then you are scammer and should be tagged until proven otherwise ?

[Steamtyme]

Short story I disagree with the negative feedback at this point. I completely understand why you feel the need to leave but I feel it's premature, and the reference doesn't support it, yet.

The user can be clearly seen to show in 2 posts that they state they do not recommend anyone buy the product. Each of the posts has a last edited time stamp of the Feb 11 and 12th respectively by Frodocooper, which predates your negative.

I look at it this way, is there a chance this member has actually tried to buy the miner and is then trying to defend his countries name, maybe. I've seen people go apeshit over how great their country is so that doesn't generally throw up any flags for me. People who might have been scammed and find a group pointing it out tend to go on the defensive first, no one likes being a sucker.

In the end all i'm saying is there is reasonable doubt. The member didn't actually start the topic, it's likely only still open as OP was banned for plagiarism if i'm not mistaken for this very topic unfortunately.


Just a small note in general, I think you should be as willing to paint green as red, or go neutral for possible red as you would for possible green.

Try to shore up references with all feedback, including risked BTC as that gives the feedback weight to anyone looking beyond the score under the avatar.

Good luck with your DT journey.

[mikeywith]

Then you are scammer and should be tagged until proven otherwise ?

if i was trying to sell a lambo for 10k then yes, it's most likely that i am a scammer until i prove the opposite, i know you have a problem with the trust system therefore you leaning towards no negative feedback even for scammers, and you avoided my question, because you most certainly know the answer to it but it goes against your theory.

I look at it this way, is there a chance this member has actually tried to buy the miner and is then trying to defend his countries name.

this reason or any other reason for that matter would make sense, but shilling/defending scammers for whatever reason is not justifiable IMO, i hope that we both agree that swiss miner is a scam, because i would be surprised if you think the opposite !

and if we both do agree to that point, then it's only a matter of whether someone who shills/defend them is supposed to be tagged or not ( which suchmoon stated somewhere above this post).

I do understand that there is a possibility that he is a good lad and not doing this on purpose ( he thinks that they are actually legit) . but he is desperately trying to defend them.

take a look at this

Guys nobody is so stupid to post a video with him so everybody see them and then take peoples money without  delivering. I think they are real but are complete idiots regarding marketing.
Also i think they are arrogant but i have seen very clever people who are arrogant too but this does not mean they are bad.
And here you people claim you have  found a scam - this is pathetic - they dont hide that they are from Bulgaria and they have lingerie business /which is really operating for 20 years/ and nowhere they claim they are from Switzerland - again stupid marketing from their side.
BTW Bulgarians are very good at maths and informatics - so i will not be surprised if the miner is real. Also they offer miner collocation in Sofia- why would they do this? I doubt they can steal tons of old miners and hide somewhere. Another thing - they seems to ship only in EU - if they were scammers - why would they do this - they would say worldwide shipping so they can take more money they even ask for your VAT number.
One thing is sure if they are scammers they will have to be very good at hiding because their real names are known and you can see their faces on the video.

he also mentioned that he did pay for the miners and waiting to receive them, i will not be surprised that a few noobs will PM him and he would advice them to buy those fake miners.

This is not a clear cut case, that's why i needed community input. i don't ask for opinions for obvious scams, but this one is really shady, first post in 5 years is a shill for scammers, regardless of his intention of why he keeps desperately defending them.

[Steamtyme]

I believe my page 2 response sums up my feeling on the company and product.

come on guys, that is obvious scam

I don't know the response below was pretty convincing, all caps, buy 200 miners.

I wonder the look on someones face arriving at that airport and not being picked up.  Do I still get my travel refunded?

Or worse yet being picked up, then given the hard sell on anything of value you have or can access.

IF OUR HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE WORK IN THE WAY WHAT WE OFFER, BEING A MANS AND CLOUSE YOUR ACCOUNTS HERE.

For this Bizarro world.

Great strategy so far, but I'll keep my account intact, you go make millions off this hardware. Then feel free to come here and rub my nose in it.

Until then I'll go with "put up or shut up" - sick of all these fakebox hardware illusionists coming here and fighting to pass of their scams.

I think our only difference here, is whether you see it as a puppet account or someone who fell for their BS hook line and sinker like many noobs do.

I personally see this member as separate from the company, until he slips up and shows a connection to them. Sure all the points are positives for the company, but they could be the same positives that convinced him to buy.

I believe I may have even called him out on his willingness to buy from them, but left it at that. I'm sure the topic would have died if people stop responding there, and it has been called a scam more than enough to serve as a warning thread to anyone reading it.

In the end though good on you seeking community input when your not sure. Also it's your trust and, you can leave it how you see fit. This isn't some way out there tag, and there's a low amount of collateral damage regarding it for now. Especially with the willingness to "remove if proven otherwise".

[suchmoon]

I think there is a couple of ways to handle this:

1) leave the tag as is, revise if things change; or
2) revise the tag now to neutral and perhaps ask the user to refrain from shilling (well, not in those exact words, maybe "unsubstantiated positive claims").

I'm quite certain #2 wouldn't work but then you could say "I told you so"

[actmyname]

Then you are scammer and should be tagged until proven otherwise?

Innocent until proven guilty is great for criminal court.
Protecting users against extraordinary claims which have onus (the claims must be proven) is great for the forum.
You would rather temporarily cease transactions to stop a likely scam than wait for the scam to occur, then act upon it.

In both scenarios, one must disprove the null hypothesis. However, the difference is that in the former, the null hypothesis is guilt and in the latter, the null hypothesis is innocence.

[Theb]

Created an account in 2014 ===> 5 years after ===> created his first post on an unknown "Swiss Miner" praising "Bulgarians are very good at maths and informatics" saying that he won't be surprised if it was real ===> after that he kept repeating in the his other post that he is not endorsing their product.

In my opinion he just got in the wrong foot with what he said in his first post but I don't think he should be tagged for shilling but he should be tagged for being inactive for such a long time. This account might be stolen or bought so the one posting might not be the original owner anymore.

[TheBeardedBaby]

As a Bulgarian I can say a few things.

1. We have a bad name around the world for scamming, hacking, stealing even pickpocketing, etc. That's the main reputation and many honest people suffer from this. But that's because the bad news are more easily spread that the good news.
2. Bulgaria is slowly becoming the biggest IT hub of Europe. Companies like IBM, HP etc. have thousands of employees there. A huge part of the country economics is laying on the IT sector. There are also some Bulgarian companies like Telerik know worldwide.
3. I know the peoples mentality, so there is a chance for some hard working guys to come out with amazing product, but the bigger chance is to get scammed.

Now on the topic.
They have two websites >

Code:

https://bitcoinminers.bg/

Code:

https://swissminer.tech/

For each site in the contact information is given different address>
For the first one the address is in Sofia, for the second the address is in Stara Zagora. Seems like they have two different offices/companies.
The interesting thing is that the contact phone number is the same for both sites >

Code:

089 910 4455

Internationa format >

Code:

00359899104455

On the fist website two of the pictures are taken from Internet >


Google result for the first picture

Google results for the second picture

This does't proof anything.  Can be legit can be not.
What I'm gonna do tomorrow, when I get more time is to check the both websites domain registrations, the actual companies registered in the Commercial register and register of NPLE and come back to you.
My personal feeling is that this might not be actually a scam. By saying (writing) this I do not endorse their project/company/products it's just my personal feeling.

[mikeywith]

This really has nothing to do with "where" they come from, even if big players like bitmain or Inno announced such machines everyone who has the slightest clue about the industry will call it fake.

they might be legit in terms of existence, they could have an office with a sexy secretary wearing a nice black skirt, but sure as hell they do not have the "alien technology" the claiming to have.

A record resolves to Bulgaria. Using name servers for this domain and hosted on same server:

http://tiaragaliano.com (lingerie site)

Also, I just checked their site and they now have them listed for sale. Contact info is for Tiara Galiano in Bulgaria, so it's a Bulgarian lingerie company selling bitcoin miners claiming to be Swiss.

mgoz who is also Bulgarian confirmed that they are fake.

I too am from Bulgaria and can confirm this address is also a complete scam.

if you want to give the community more information since it should be easier for you as a Bulgarian, it would be highly appreciated, despite the fact that it's a bit off topic since this is about tagging the member who shill/defend them, i think most of US have passed the stage of discussion about Swiss miner integrity , but again any thing you have to add to the case is indeed appreciated.

[Lauda]

Your negative is appropriate; if others talk you out of preventing this scam, I will tag him myself.

[Quickseller]

He is not making a fake vouch (or any vouch for that matter), he is only disagreeing with your conclusion that on its face that thread is a scam.

I think vb2005 is wrong, as I think the claims the OP made in that thread regarding the specs of their miner are fraudulent on its face. However this is based on my own experience, and if anyone wants to disagree with me, I am willing to back up my position with my reasoning.

I don't think it is appropriate to label someone a scammer because they disagree with you as to what is automatically a scam in non-explicit cases. It would be more appropriate to explain to him why you believe his conclusions are incorrect/inaccurate, and hopefully he will change his position. 

Perhaps his (what I believe to be) flawed reasoning is due to his inexperience. Some in this thread say patriotism might be influencing his stance. His worldview might be causing him to make this conclusion. Or maybe he is in fact a shill of that scammer.

I would not say it is a foregone conclusion that vb2005 is a shill, and I cannot rule out other reasonable possibilities. Until and unless you can reasonably rule out alternatives to him being a shill (within reason), a negative is not appropriate.

You can ignore anything suchmoon says. She will never tell anyone with power they are wrong, except in a dispute with two people in power, in which case she will take the side of the one with more power. She is a "yesman", or in her case, a "yeswomen" and should not be taken seriously. Any advice you get from her will not be useful to you.

Your negative is appropriate; if others talk you out of preventing this scam, I will tag him myself.

tagging either one of these people is not going to prevent anyone from being scammed. Potential customers can read Phil's comments and reach the conclusion not to do business with that person. Tagging vb2005 is certainly not going to prevent this specific scam. 

[mikeywith]

I don't think it is appropriate to label someone a scammer because they disagree with you as to what is automatically a scam in non-explicit cases. It would be more appropriate to explain to him why you believe his conclusions are incorrect/inaccurate, and hopefully he will change his position. 

I have not had any discussion with the member, it's not a matter of him disagreeing with me, many people disagree with me, i can't possibly tag people for disagreeing with me.

everyone and their grandmother tried to explain to him , he kept defending siwss miner desperately by ignoring actual facts.

I would not say it is a foregone conclusion that vb2005 is a shill, and I cannot rule out other reasonable possibilities. Until and unless you can reasonably rule out alternatives to him being a shill (within reason), a negative is not appropriate.

you do know that newbies can PM him as he is the only one on this forum who announced the purchase of these miners, and it's very possible that he will fake vouch siwss miner in private. a warning on his profile might save a few poor souls.

i do understand that he might be doing this out of ignorance, the possibility is there, but what are the chances of someone who haven't posted in 5 years then in his first post, he defends an obvious scam ?

You can ignore anything suchmoon says.

This is a personal issue between you and him/her, it's off topic to say least.


 Quickseller, would you trust someone like vb2005? would you tag him next week when his review on siwss miner comes positive?