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Author Topic: Bitcoin ponzi accusations  (Read 2214 times)
instructor2121
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March 12, 2014, 09:01:30 AM
 #21

Its a good thing New York regulators dont read, watch, or listen to the news!!!! They would halt ALL apps for new exchanges.... Wink

I agree when I hear the word ponzi, i immediately dismiss anything that person has to say....reading and research is step one before engaging in an intelligent conversation about BTC. My 2 cent
odolvlobo
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March 13, 2014, 05:04:27 PM
Last edit: March 13, 2014, 06:38:28 PM by odolvlobo
 #22

The only similarity between Bitcoin and a ponzi scheme is that in a ponzi scheme, the earlier you get in on it, the more money you leave with.

That is also true of every successful legitimate investment, so it is not a meaningful comparison.

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solomon
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March 13, 2014, 08:23:23 PM
 #23

People are confusing ponzi scheme with pyramid or MLM scheme but neither of them are like Bitcoin.

Ponzi scheme - A central actor (person or 'company') receives money with a promise of quick and significant returns. All people that buy into the scheme interact directly with the central actor who pays out money he has received from 'investors' as returns in order to drum up more investment in a fictitious investment opportunity. It is by design centralized, non-transparent and has a hierarchy of 2 levels - CEO of ponzi and everyone else. The investors do not realize they are being payed out with their own and others principle investments.

    O      O       O
     \      |      /
O - (CEO of ponzi) - O
    /       |      \
 O         O        O


Pyramid scheme - A central actor encourages a number of other actors to invest in something in return for something of little to no real world value in a fixed hierarchy on a promise of a) high profit margins on a cheap product and b) getting more new actors into the hierarchy directly underneath you feeding your personal revenue stream (and by design, those directly above you). This structure allows large profits to flow up the streams towards the tip of the hierarchy. A pyramid scheme by design is centralized and non-transparent in nature. People lower down are often not allowed to know exactly how far down they are in the pyramid, only seeing those they directly interact with.


        (CEO of MLM)
          /      |       \
       O       O       O
      / | \   / | \     / | \
   O  O  OO O O O  O O


Bitcoin - Every bitcoin is worth the same so every actor benefits proportionally with the growth of the network. Note that with a pyramid scheme the goods you purchase either have little utility like a poor quality 'how to' guide or a good whose market value is vastly lower than what you just paid to purchase it ($600 for 24 energy drinks). With bitcoin wealth is being traded 1:1. If you buy a bitcoin at a market price of $600, that is what it is worth at that moment and neither party can be said to have 'lost any wealth'. There is nothing stopping you from turning around and selling it right back to the market for market price, just like gold or an antique vase. Bitcoin has a flat hierarchy with no central authority and is transparent.


   O - O       O
    \    \       /
 O-O   O - O
     \   /      \
      O         O - O   


What confuses people is the exponential growth and the religious zeal of some bitcoiners giving the impression it is a get rich quick scheme.



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protokol
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March 13, 2014, 08:32:28 PM
 #24

^^ Well put.
tkbx
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March 13, 2014, 08:37:29 PM
 #25

If bitcoin was a ponzi scheme, the SEC would have closed it a long time ago.
How would they go about doing that, exactly?
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tkbx
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March 13, 2014, 08:39:35 PM
 #26

The only similarity between Bitcoin and a ponzi scheme is that in a ponzi scheme, the earlier you get in on it, the more money you leave with.

That is also true of every successful legitimate investment, so it is not a meaningful comparison.
My point exactly. People hear about people who got in on Bitcoin early and assume they are "leaders" or something. They think that is someone gets rich, it's a get rich quick scheme.
Bit_Happy
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March 14, 2014, 04:44:06 AM
 #27

how should i defend bitcoin from this allegation though? a lot of close minded mainstream liberals (not bashing liberals, i am one myself) use this argument

Tell the truth:
BTC is not a Ponzi but does have some amazing similarities.   Cheesy

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March 14, 2014, 05:24:19 AM
 #28

i'm actually attempting to drive the price of Bitcoin to $0 through my use of a 21,000,000 pre-mined version of Litecoin to replace Bitcoin.. s ssshh (it's called SatoshiCoin)
greenlion
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March 14, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
 #29

how should i defend bitcoin from this allegation though? a lot of close minded mainstream liberals (not bashing liberals, i am one myself) use this argument

Tell the truth:
BTC is not a Ponzi but does have some amazing similarities.   Cheesy

All capital goods that show price appreciation have those "amazing similarities".
porcupine87
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hm


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March 14, 2014, 08:32:38 AM
 #30

People are confusing ponzi scheme with pyramid or MLM scheme but neither of them are like Bitcoin.

Ponzi scheme - A central actor (person or 'company') receives money with a promise of quick and significant returns. All people that buy into the scheme interact directly with the central actor who pays out money he has received from 'investors' as returns in order to drum up more investment in a fictitious investment opportunity. It is by design centralized, non-transparent and has a hierarchy of 2 levels - CEO of ponzi and everyone else. The investors do not realize they are being payed out with their own and others principle investments.

    O      O       O
     \      |      /
O - (CEO of ponzi) - O
    /       |      \
 O         O        O


Pyramid scheme - A central actor encourages a number of other actors to invest in something in return for something of little to no real world value in a fixed hierarchy on a promise of a) high profit margins on a cheap product and b) getting more new actors into the hierarchy directly underneath you feeding your personal revenue stream (and by design, those directly above you). This structure allows large profits to flow up the streams towards the tip of the hierarchy. A pyramid scheme by design is centralized and non-transparent in nature. People lower down are often not allowed to know exactly how far down they are in the pyramid, only seeing those they directly interact with.


        (CEO of MLM)
          /      |       \
       O       O       O
      / | \   / | \     / | \
   O  O  OO O O O  O O


Bitcoin - Every bitcoin is worth the same so every actor benefits proportionally with the growth of the network. Note that with a pyramid scheme the goods you purchase either have little utility like a poor quality 'how to' guide or a good whose market value is vastly lower than what you just paid to purchase it ($600 for 24 energy drinks). With bitcoin wealth is being traded 1:1. If you buy a bitcoin at a market price of $600, that is what it is worth at that moment and neither party can be said to have 'lost any wealth'. There is nothing stopping you from turning around and selling it right back to the market for market price, just like gold or an antique vase. Bitcoin has a flat hierarchy with no central authority and is transparent.


   O - O       O
    \    \       /
 O-O   O - O
     \   /      \
      O         O - O  


What confuses people is the exponential growth and the religious zeal of some bitcoiners giving the impression it is a get rich quick scheme.




this is really good. To make it perfect, you should point out, that Ponzi and Pyramide Scheme are dependend on new investors. In a Ponzi Scheme you need them, because otherwise the scammer could not pay out investors (they will not reinvest forever). In a pyramid you need investors otherwise the new investors get no return. In Bitcojn you don't need new ones.

I think this confusion is, because Bitcoin has a few paralells with such systems:
- possibility of high and quick returns
- many people don't really know why Bitcoin has value. So the same with a Ponzi Scheme, investors don't really know why there is a return.
- there is a possibility that bitcoins are only worth a few cents tomorrow. So you invest an significant amount of your wealth and tomorrow your hands are empty.

First and thirh you have with any stock, too.

"Morality, it could be argued, represents the way that people would like the world to work - whereas economics represents how it actually does work." Freakonomics
bananas (OP)
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March 14, 2014, 09:43:22 AM
 #31

The drawings made me think of this. Considering bitcoin actually has an oligarchy composed by Satoshi and his closest contributors back then(today on the foundation). It looks similar to this:

 O      O       O
     \      |      /
O - (BTC oligarchy ) - O
    /       |      \
 O         O        O


We can also change it to:


 O      O       O
     \      |      /
O - (BTC foundation ) - O
    /       |      \
 O         O        O




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