Bitcoin as the electric train

[tabnloz]

I'm bullish on Bitcoin. 

But I've been thinking of examples of technologies that failed despite their obvious superiority, and the example I can come up with that represents this is the electric train/car/taxi.

Who knew that around the turn of the century (yes 1900's) the US had electric taxi's and trains? That Henry Ford almost bankrupted himself fighting for electric cars & that he partnered with Thomas Edison in getting them into mass production? That continual patent extending ruined innovation and that even though the electric train network and cost was far far superior to every other form (diesel, gasoline), the people that ran the electric train companies basically bankrupted their companies in order to scrape as much profit as possible?

We don't know much about this because it has been resigned to the dustbin of history (I stumbled upon Internal Combustion by Edwin Black which details it).

While I don't think this will happen to bitcoin (as i said I'm hopefully bullish), I realise there is always a chance that a set of events or trend intervenes to rout something as positive and innovative as the Bitcoin protocol.

[protokol]

Yeah, it seems that electric cars in particular are stuck in that so-called "chasm of uncertainty" (the bit just before the s-curve goes exponential)

I think the reason is that petrol/diesel cars have just been cheaper and more fun to drive for the last 100 years. That also makes me bullish on bitcoin, because it is actually cheaper to use and more fun than fiat currency IMHO.

 

[Ibian]

Electric cars suck. That's why they failed. The battery technology is not there yet, and won't be for a while. Even then they take a long time to refill so no good for long trips. Just not gonna work.

However I'm curious about electric engines for boats. Especially as auxiliary propulsion on sail boats for days with no wind, where the batteries recharge by windmills. Something I intend to play with.

[aminorex]

Electric cars suck. That's why they failed. The battery technology is not there yet, and won't be for a while. Even then they take a long time to refill so no good for long trips. Just not gonna work.

Under pessimal conditions a Model S will go 150 miles.  It takes 90 seconds to swap batteries at a station.  IF you had an adequate network of battery swap stations OR you were satisfied with a 150 mile daily range, it would be the best car ever (highest score on CR).  For many people, those conditions are true.  For even more people, they are not  -- I should say "yet" because Musk is such a dude he might just build out enough swap stations to make it viable for most affluent potential customers.

[Ibian]

Electric cars suck. That's why they failed. The battery technology is not there yet, and won't be for a while. Even then they take a long time to refill so no good for long trips. Just not gonna work.

Under pessimal conditions a Model S will go 150 miles.  It takes 90 seconds to swap batteries at a station.  IF you had an adequate network of battery swap stations OR you were satisfied with a 150 mile daily range, it would be the best car ever (highest score on CR).  For many people, those conditions are true.  For even more people, they are not  -- I should say "yet" because Musk is such a dude he might just build out enough swap stations to make it viable for most affluent potential customers.

Setting aside the price tag, that's what, half the range of a normal car? Fine for most cases and I wouldn't personally complain given adequate infrastructure, but there are... flaws with certain models. I forget which, but in one of the cars, if the batteries are completely discharged, they can't be used again and you have to order a new pack with a ridiculous price tag.

Other considerations is price per mile. I haven't seen any comparisons on that yet.

[tabnloz]

Electric cars suck. That's why they failed. The battery technology is not there yet, and won't be for a while. Even then they take a long time to refill so no good for long trips. Just not gonna work.

However I'm curious about electric engines for boats. Especially as auxiliary propulsion on sail boats for days with no wind, where the batteries recharge by windmills. Something I intend to play with.

Yes electric cars fall a bit behind compared to gasoline / diesel. But they do not suck - they have just started the race from a long way behind.

But back around the turn of the century, it was electric transport that had the infrastructure and market share.

They were way ahead in efficiency and with public sentiment. Diesel / gasoline were seen as noisy, polluting and inefficient. Imagine if electric had continued to develop..... Unfortunately it was destroyed by greed of those that owned the network.

Also I believe it was Tesla who created a self charging apparatus for the home (although it may have been Edison?) Purchase it and electricity would power your home forever, recharging itself.

[Ibian]

Also I believe it was Tesla who created a self charging apparatus for the home (although it may have been Edison?) Purchase it and electricity would power your home forever, recharging itself.

Please stop repeating that kind of stupidity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. There is no such thing as free energy forever.

[tabnloz]

Also I believe it was Tesla who created a self charging apparatus for the home (although it may have been Edison?) Purchase it and electricity would power your home forever, recharging itself.

Please stop repeating that kind of stupidity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. There is no such thing as free energy forever.

Whatever. You're going to try and play semantics, then go ahead.

Point is that one of those two built a contraption that harnessed energy, allowing users to charge their home without the need to pay a company to use the grid.

[pungopete468]

Despite how much you like or dislike electric cars, they will be the norm in the near future...

New innovations in Quantum Physics allow for extremely efficient scavenging of wasted natural radiant energies that exist in nature as a result of various radioactive decays, vibrations, signals, and electro-thermal potential energy differentials, cosmic sources, etc... Combine all of this with evolving flywheel energy storage and drive-line technology and electric cars begin to look superior to ICE cars...

[Ibian]

Also I believe it was Tesla who created a self charging apparatus for the home (although it may have been Edison?) Purchase it and electricity would power your home forever, recharging itself.

Please stop repeating that kind of stupidity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. There is no such thing as free energy forever.

Whatever. You're going to try and play semantics, then go ahead.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Point is that one of those two built a contraption that harnessed energy, allowing users to charge their home without the need to pay a company to use the grid.

Prove it.

[Ibian]

Despite how much you like or dislike electric cars, they will be the norm in the near future...

New innovations in Quantum Physics allow for extremely efficient scavenging of wasted natural radiant energies that exist in nature as a result of various radioactive decays, vibrations, signals, and electro-thermal potential energy differentials, cosmic sources, etc... Combine all of this with evolving flywheel energy storage and drive-line technology and electric cars begin to look superior to ICE cars...

People who talk about quantum physics and what it will do to revolutionize the world, especially when they Capitalize it, usually don't have a clue. What matters is practical application, not equations on a piece of paper. Show that, and we can talk.

[pungopete468]

Despite how much you like or dislike electric cars, they will be the norm in the near future...

New innovations in Quantum Physics allow for extremely efficient scavenging of wasted natural radiant energies that exist in nature as a result of various radioactive decays, vibrations, signals, and electro-thermal potential energy differentials, cosmic sources, etc... Combine all of this with evolving flywheel energy storage and drive-line technology and electric cars begin to look superior to ICE cars...

People who talk about quantum physics and what it will do to revolutionize the world, especially when they Capitalize it, usually don't have a clue. What matters is practical application, not equations on a piece of paper. Show that, and we can talk.

I used Quantum Physics as a noun, hence the capitalization.

Have you used a new touch screen phone lately? Quantum tunneling in action; the variable resistance generated by closing the gap between two conductors with an insulator between them. (allows for fingerprint recognition on a touch screen being only a small feature).

Wave-particle duality - electrons are both a wave and particle simultaneously meaning you can harvest electricity from RF, wifi, microwaves, thermal differentials, vibrations, etc... Already invented and operating.

How many innovations would you like and are they still relevant if they don't all realize the maximum theoretical efficiency or widespread consumer adoption immediately?

The world will change; one way or another.

[Ibian]

Despite how much you like or dislike electric cars, they will be the norm in the near future...

New innovations in Quantum Physics allow for extremely efficient scavenging of wasted natural radiant energies that exist in nature as a result of various radioactive decays, vibrations, signals, and electro-thermal potential energy differentials, cosmic sources, etc... Combine all of this with evolving flywheel energy storage and drive-line technology and electric cars begin to look superior to ICE cars...

People who talk about quantum physics and what it will do to revolutionize the world, especially when they Capitalize it, usually don't have a clue. What matters is practical application, not equations on a piece of paper. Show that, and we can talk.

I used Quantum Physics as a noun, hence the capitalization.

Have you used a new touch screen phone lately? Quantum tunneling in action; the variable resistance generated by closing the gap between two conductors with an insulator between them. (allows for fingerprint recognition on a touch screen being only a small feature).

Wave-particle duality - electrons are both a wave and particle simultaneously meaning you can harvest electricity from RF, wifi, microwaves, thermal differentials, vibrations, etc... Already invented and operating.

How many innovations would you like and are they still relevant if they don't all realize the maximum theoretical efficiency or widespread consumer adoption immediately?

The world will change; one way or another.

That's great, but this was supposed to be about electric cars. More specifically of interest to me, electric cars which are on par with normal cars.

[pungopete468]

These are innovations in electricity; you don't have to jump very far to reach a constructive use for an electric car.

For instance; flywheel energy storage:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/03/making-a-case-for-flywheel-energy-storage

Will recharge when you apply the brakes and lend momentum for acceleration from a stop. I've seen schematics for a carbon fiber flywheel energy storage system built into a transfer case. The system uses energy captured from the wheel hubs while applying the brakes to accelerate the flywheel. The flywheel increases efficiency by 80% as it is using otherwise wasted energy during braking.

The tech I mentioned in my last post can be used for scavenging alternate wasted energies. Batteries will always be important as an electrical buffer but you can combine multiple forms of waste energy scavenging systems to effectively drive an electric car indefinitely...

[Ibian]

These are innovations in electricity; you don't have to jump very far to reach a constructive use for an electric car.

For instance; flywheel energy storage:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/03/making-a-case-for-flywheel-energy-storage

Will recharge when you apply the brakes and lend momentum for acceleration from a stop. I've seen schematics for a carbon fiber flywheel energy storage system built into a transfer case. The system uses energy captured from the wheel hubs while applying the brakes to accelerate the flywheel. The flywheel increases efficiency by 80% as it is using otherwise wasted energy during braking.

The tech I mentioned in my last post can be used for scavenging alternate wasted energies. Batteries will always be important as an electrical buffer but you can combine multiple forms of waste energy scavenging systems to effectively drive an electric car indefinitely...

Flywheels could be built into normal cars too. I suppose that might count as a hybrid under a given definition, if a very loose one.

What I'm interested in is this, and what will be needed for mass adoption: Electric cars with at least the range of a normal car, at same or lower price per mile. Flywheels and finger print recognition won't get us there.

It's a numbers game in the end. Doesn't matter if we can change all cars to electric right now, if there is no economic benefit to it it won't happen. Same with solar panels in northern europe, it will take about 20 years or more to see a net gain compared to just getting electricity off the grid (unless something breaks before then - wanna bet on the odds of that?). A lot of people were still suckered in, but now that people are seeing how it works in practice nobody wants it.

[pungopete468]

Flywheels could be built into normal cars too. I suppose that might count as a hybrid under a given definition, if a very loose one.

What I'm interested in is this, and what will be needed for mass adoption: Electric cars with at least the range of a normal car, at same or lower price per mile. Flywheels and finger print recognition won't get us there.

The goal is to give electric cars an unlimited range by conserving as much energy (intrinsic to the vehicle) as possible while simultaneously scavenging wasted natural energy. The amount of wasted natural radiant energy across the entire spectrum is immense.

The cost of these technologies are very small, surprisingly little actually. A metamaterial can be applied with an aerosol spray and the process of creating various beneficial metamaterials is simple... Vaporize the base element and combine with other vaporized elements to create different properties. The vaporized elements will naturally crystallize after the application.

[Ibian]

Flywheels could be built into normal cars too. I suppose that might count as a hybrid under a given definition, if a very loose one.

What I'm interested in is this, and what will be needed for mass adoption: Electric cars with at least the range of a normal car, at same or lower price per mile. Flywheels and finger print recognition won't get us there.

The goal is to give electric cars an unlimited range by conserving as much energy (intrinsic to the vehicle) as possible while simultaneously scavenging wasted natural energy. The amount of wasted natural radiant energy across the entire spectrum is immense.

The cost of these technologies are very small, surprisingly little actually. A metamaterial can be applied with an aerosol spray and the process of creating various beneficial metamaterials is simple... Vaporize the base element and combine with other vaporized elements to create different properties. The vaporized elements will naturally crystallize after the application.

Again, practical application. Right now that stuff is just fantasy.

[pungopete468]

Flywheels could be built into normal cars too. I suppose that might count as a hybrid under a given definition, if a very loose one.

What I'm interested in is this, and what will be needed for mass adoption: Electric cars with at least the range of a normal car, at same or lower price per mile. Flywheels and finger print recognition won't get us there.

The goal is to give electric cars an unlimited range by conserving as much energy (intrinsic to the vehicle) as possible while simultaneously scavenging wasted natural energy. The amount of wasted natural radiant energy across the entire spectrum is immense.

The cost of these technologies are very small, surprisingly little actually. A metamaterial can be applied with an aerosol spray and the process of creating various beneficial metamaterials is simple... Vaporize the base element and combine with other vaporized elements to create different properties. The vaporized elements will naturally crystallize after the application.

Again, practical application. Right now that stuff is just fantasy.

It's not fantasy, it's already been done; it just hasn't found mainstream incorporation yet...

http://www.gizmag.com/power-harvester-microwave-signals/29710/

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/09/28/breakthrough-electrical-power-from-waste-heat-generated-at-the-quantum-level/

http://www.news.wisc.edu/17818

Just a few... Plenty more where that came from.

[tabnloz]

Also I believe it was Tesla who created a self charging apparatus for the home (although it may have been Edison?) Purchase it and electricity would power your home forever, recharging itself.

Please stop repeating that kind of stupidity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. There is no such thing as free energy forever.

Whatever. You're going to try and play semantics, then go ahead.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Yes I do. Seemed to me you had issue with my use of 'forever' and I was replying that wasn't the focus of my point.

Point is that one of those two built a contraption that harnessed energy, allowing users to charge their home without the need to pay a company to use the grid.

Prove it.

OK. I cant find the photo I have but here are two mentions.

http://energy.gov/articles/top-8-things-you-didn-t-know-about-thomas-alva-edison

In 1912 he announced an innovative new energy-self sufficient home called the “Twentieth Century Suburban Residence.” Every device and system in the house was powered by Edison batteries and a small-scale electrical generator -- making it completely “off the grid.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03wwln-essay-t.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

In 1912 Edison unveiled an energy-self-sufficient home in West Orange, N.J. Billed as an experimental “Twentieth Century Suburban Residence” and designed to showcase his batteries, it bulged with luxuries like air heating and cooling units, a clothes-washing machine, an electric cooking range and, of course, plenty of light bulbs. Completely off the grid, the house received its juice from a generator that charged a bank of 27 cells in the basement. For this first attempt, Edison used a gas-run motor, but evidence suggests that he hoped to hook up to a wind turbine. The system would allow the prospective homeowner to be, according to The New York Times, “utterly and for all time independent of the nearness or farness of the big electric companies.”


Now stop being such a fucking douchebag.

My original post was about whether there were examples of superior technologies that didn't succeed in the marketplace. Try and add something to that discussion.

[Ibian]

Flywheels could be built into normal cars too. I suppose that might count as a hybrid under a given definition, if a very loose one.

What I'm interested in is this, and what will be needed for mass adoption: Electric cars with at least the range of a normal car, at same or lower price per mile. Flywheels and finger print recognition won't get us there.

The goal is to give electric cars an unlimited range by conserving as much energy (intrinsic to the vehicle) as possible while simultaneously scavenging wasted natural energy. The amount of wasted natural radiant energy across the entire spectrum is immense.

The cost of these technologies are very small, surprisingly little actually. A metamaterial can be applied with an aerosol spray and the process of creating various beneficial metamaterials is simple... Vaporize the base element and combine with other vaporized elements to create different properties. The vaporized elements will naturally crystallize after the application.

Again, practical application. Right now that stuff is just fantasy.

It's not fantasy, it's already been done; it just hasn't found mainstream incorporation yet...

http://www.gizmag.com/power-harvester-microwave-signals/29710/

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/09/28/breakthrough-electrical-power-from-waste-heat-generated-at-the-quantum-level/

http://www.news.wisc.edu/17818

Just a few... Plenty more where that came from.

Fantasy as in it doesn't see practical use and won't for years or decades. Some of those links are interesting, especially the part about improving solar panels, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Numbers from practical use are needed.