Re: Venezuela Off Topic Split

[coins4commies]

Saying my country should stop interfering with them is not the same thing as "defending" them.  I'm not just against intervention because it is immoral and causes suffering around the world, I'm also against intervention for the libertarian reason that it is costly, undemocratic and does not serve a direct purpose in the everyday lives of Americans.  I don't think you realize that when we all did a political test, I was the least authoritarian (or most libertarian) leaning person on this board.  

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[TECSHARE]

Saying my country should stop interfering with them is not the same thing as "defending" them.  I'm not just against intervention because it is immoral and causes suffering around the world, I'm also against intervention for the libertarian reason that it is costly, undemocratic and does not serve a direct purpose in the everyday lives of Americans.  I don't think you realize that when we all did a political test, I was the least authoritarian (or most libertarian) leaning person on this board.  

That is not a reply to what I just said, this is just you sliding the topic to another aspect of the discussion because you realize you have no logical reply to what I actually stated.

[coins4commies]

Saying my country should stop interfering with them is not the same thing as "defending" them.  I'm not just against intervention because it is immoral and causes suffering around the world, I'm also against intervention for the libertarian reason that it is costly, undemocratic and does not serve a direct purpose in the everyday lives of Americans.  I don't think you realize that when we all did a political test, I was the least authoritarian (or most libertarian) leaning person on this board.  

That is not a reply to what I just said, this is just you sliding the topic to another aspect of the discussion because you realize you have no logical reply to what I actually stated.

I had to look back at your post and mine just to make sure and it was a direct response.

 
You: accuse me of defending "former communist" and "collapsing socialist" countries
me: denies defending them ever
me: explains how being anti-intervention does not mean i am "defending" the other country
me: references political test as evidence for my denial and explanation

Just because I think the US should allow countries to determine their own destiny, doesn't mean I am defending "how" they are doing it. Thats a tired argument that has been used by neocons and hawks leading up to every failed american intervention.

[TECSHARE]

It never ceases to amaze me how many times people from former Communist nations and current Socialist collapsing states will tell you Marxism and its child ideologies are a tumor on society, and yet you continue to defend it.

It = Marxist ideologies, which you continue to defend in spite of many people who have lived thru the results telling you the ideology is a horrible failure. Your reply is a desperate attempt to not address this fact. I am sure you completely believe you responded directly, you might believe in unicorns too, that doesn't make either of them real.

[coins4commies]

My ideology matches up a lot more closely with countries like Iceland, Sweden and Denmark.  The people who have lived through the results tell me its a great success and they love it.  You are mischaracterizing the specific set of policies I support and are using a vague umbrella term to try and align me with things I am against.  

[TECSHARE]

My ideology matches up a lot more closely with countries like Iceland, Sweden and Denmark.  The people who have lived through the results tell me its a great success and they love it.  You are mischaracterizing the specific set of policies I support and are using a vague umbrella term to try and align me with things I am against.  

Those aren't Socialist nations. The Prime Minister of Denmark annoyed with this constant assertion even came out and chastised the implication.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

I am not mischaracterizing anything. The ideologies you support are based in Marxism. Marxism is inherently totalitarian. Maybe you can demand I make your argument for you some more. That will fix it.

[coins4commies]

My ideology matches up a lot more closely with countries like Iceland, Sweden and Denmark.  The people who have lived through the results tell me its a great success and they love it.  You are mischaracterizing the specific set of policies I support and are using a vague umbrella term to try and align me with things I am against.  

Those aren't Socialist nations. The Prime Minister of Denmark annoyed with this constant assertion even came out and chastised the implication.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

I am not mischaracterizing anything. The ideologies you support are based in Marxism. Marxism is inherently totalitarian. Maybe you can demand I make your argument for you some more. That will fix it.

but I don't support the nations you call socialist nor do I endorse their policies.  I support the policies that have been adopted in Denmark.  If that means I am not socialist, then fine, you don't have to call me a socialist.  I have no interest in semantics.  Never did. I do have interest in discussing policies though so lets look at what the man said.

Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.

I don't think we should have a planned economy nor does anyone I know of including democratic socialists and those in the socialist party.

“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

True freedom with everyone's basic needs met? That is all I really stand for so I agree here. confusion comes when a lot of people say "welfare is socialism"  but those same people say "welfare creates venezuela" but when you point to denmark they say "but denmark isn't socialist".   Its a circular game of semantics.

“We also have a strong and fee educational system. Students in institutions for higher education and university do not pay for their education, on the contrary they receive educational grants for studying,” he added.

Free tuition and UBI? I agree again here.  

“So, what is the catch you might ask. The most obvious one, of course,  is the high taxes. The top income tax in Denmark is almost 60 percent. We have a 25 percent sales tax and on cars the incise duties are up to 180 percent. In total, Danish taxes come to almost half of our national income compared to around 25 percent in the US. Quite a substantial difference,” he said.

High taxes on the wealthy?  I agree again here.

These are all the policies I, and any democratic socialist want to see put in place and they are all the same policies you see in the nordic model.  Combine that with insanely high union participation rates and mandated union decisions throughout entire sectors, and you can see how Nordic countries have a high degree of worker control.


Are these policies socialist?  Donald Trump and much of the American media sure thinks so.  The point is, the definition is jumbled and the word is defined differently by so many people that it is useless in American discourse.  
https://www.google.com/search?q=free+college+socialism&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-YK_k_fgAhU4JDQIHTOyBtcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1416&bih=651

Whatever they are, there is a stark contrast between the policies there and the policies you call "marxist" and no one in America is advocating for what you call marxism.  Everyone on the far American left denounces authoritarian policies and closely aligns with the "not socialist" policies spelled out in that article.   Its actually quite funny that I have to go this far to explain how a group of people who want to abolish law enforcement agencies and prisons do not embrace totalitarian rule. 

[TECSHARE]

My ideology matches up a lot more closely with countries like Iceland, Sweden and Denmark.  The people who have lived through the results tell me its a great success and they love it.  You are mischaracterizing the specific set of policies I support and are using a vague umbrella term to try and align me with things I am against.  

Those aren't Socialist nations. The Prime Minister of Denmark annoyed with this constant assertion even came out and chastised the implication.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

I am not mischaracterizing anything. The ideologies you support are based in Marxism. Marxism is inherently totalitarian. Maybe you can demand I make your argument for you some more. That will fix it.

but I don't support the nations you call socialist nor do I endorse their policies.  I support the policies that have been adopted in Denmark.  If that means I am not socialist, then fine, you don't have to call me a socialist.  I have no interest in semantics.  Never did. I do have interest in discussing policies though so lets look at what the man said.

Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.

I don't think we should have a planned economy nor does anyone I know of including democratic socialists and those in the socialist party.

“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

True freedom with everyone's basic needs met? That is all I really stand for so I agree here. confusion comes when a lot of people say "welfare is socialism"  but those same people say "welfare creates venezuela" but when you point to denmark they say "but denmark isn't socialist".   Its a circular game of semantics.

“We also have a strong and fee educational system. Students in institutions for higher education and university do not pay for their education, on the contrary they receive educational grants for studying,” he added.

Free tuition and UBI? I agree again here.  

“So, what is the catch you might ask. The most obvious one, of course,  is the high taxes. The top income tax in Denmark is almost 60 percent. We have a 25 percent sales tax and on cars the incise duties are up to 180 percent. In total, Danish taxes come to almost half of our national income compared to around 25 percent in the US. Quite a substantial difference,” he said.

High taxes on the wealthy?  I agree again here.

These are all the policies I, and any democratic socialist want to see put in place and they are all the same policies you see in the nordic model.  Combine that with insanely high union participation rates and mandated union decisions throughout entire sectors, and you can see how Nordic countries have a high degree of worker control.


Are these policies socialist?  Donald Trump and much of the American media sure thinks so.  The point is, the definition is jumbled and the word is defined differently by so many people that it is useless in American discourse.  
https://www.google.com/search?q=free+college+socialism&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-YK_k_fgAhU4JDQIHTOyBtcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1416&bih=651

Whatever they are, there is a stark contrast between the policies there and the policies you call "marxist" and no one in America is advocating for what you call marxism.  Everyone on the far American left denounces authoritarian policies and closely aligns with the "not socialist" policies spelled out in that article.   Its actually quite funny that I have to go this far to explain how a group of people who want to abolish law enforcement agencies and prisons do not embrace totalitarian rule.  

We never see eye to eye because if a word conflicts with your beliefs, you simply redefine it. You are the ideological equivalent of a child in a toy store just pointing at everything saying I WANT I WANT I WANT but then when asked why you want it, or what you are going to do with it, all you can do is give a confused look and repeat I WANT I WANT I WANT.

[coins4commies]

My ideology matches up a lot more closely with countries like Iceland, Sweden and Denmark.  The people who have lived through the results tell me its a great success and they love it.  You are mischaracterizing the specific set of policies I support and are using a vague umbrella term to try and align me with things I am against.  

Those aren't Socialist nations. The Prime Minister of Denmark annoyed with this constant assertion even came out and chastised the implication.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

I am not mischaracterizing anything. The ideologies you support are based in Marxism. Marxism is inherently totalitarian. Maybe you can demand I make your argument for you some more. That will fix it.

but I don't support the nations you call socialist nor do I endorse their policies.  I support the policies that have been adopted in Denmark.  If that means I am not socialist, then fine, you don't have to call me a socialist.  I have no interest in semantics.  Never did. I do have interest in discussing policies though so lets look at what the man said.

Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.

I don't think we should have a planned economy nor does anyone I know of including democratic socialists and those in the socialist party.

“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

True freedom with everyone's basic needs met? That is all I really stand for so I agree here. confusion comes when a lot of people say "welfare is socialism"  but those same people say "welfare creates venezuela" but when you point to denmark they say "but denmark isn't socialist".   Its a circular game of semantics.

“We also have a strong and fee educational system. Students in institutions for higher education and university do not pay for their education, on the contrary they receive educational grants for studying,” he added.

Free tuition and UBI? I agree again here.  

“So, what is the catch you might ask. The most obvious one, of course,  is the high taxes. The top income tax in Denmark is almost 60 percent. We have a 25 percent sales tax and on cars the incise duties are up to 180 percent. In total, Danish taxes come to almost half of our national income compared to around 25 percent in the US. Quite a substantial difference,” he said.

High taxes on the wealthy?  I agree again here.

These are all the policies I, and any democratic socialist want to see put in place and they are all the same policies you see in the nordic model.  Combine that with insanely high union participation rates and mandated union decisions throughout entire sectors, and you can see how Nordic countries have a high degree of worker control.


Are these policies socialist?  Donald Trump and much of the American media sure thinks so.  The point is, the definition is jumbled and the word is defined differently by so many people that it is useless in American discourse.  
https://www.google.com/search?q=free+college+socialism&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-YK_k_fgAhU4JDQIHTOyBtcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1416&bih=651

Whatever they are, there is a stark contrast between the policies there and the policies you call "marxist" and no one in America is advocating for what you call marxism.  Everyone on the far American left denounces authoritarian policies and closely aligns with the "not socialist" policies spelled out in that article.   Its actually quite funny that I have to go this far to explain how a group of people who want to abolish law enforcement agencies and prisons do not embrace totalitarian rule. 

We never see eye to eye because if a word conflicts with your beliefs, you simply redefine it. You are the ideological equivalent of a child in a toy store just pointing at everything saying I WANT I WANT I WANT but then when asked why you want it, or what you are going to do with it, all you can do is give a confused look ad repeat I WANT I WANT I WANT.

Like I said before, I don't care what words are used, thats why I wrote out the specific policies I support and named countries that have already adopted that set of policies.  I've explained the what, why and how and all you've done is say that its totalitarianism without justification.   We can use whatever words you'd like because anytime you see a word being used outside of your preferred definition, you completely shutdown.  It may just be because you have no interest in  anything other than semantics.   Your entire argument was based on calling my idea totalitarian and equating them with Venezuela but that is hard to do when talking about the specific policies. 

[TECSHARE]

Like I said before, I don't care what words are used, thats why I wrote out the specific policies I support and named countries that have already adopted that set of policies.  I've explained the what, why and how and all you've done is say that its totalitarianism without justification.   We can use whatever words you'd like because anytime you see a word being used outside of your preferred definition, you completely shutdown.  It may just be because you have no interest in  anything other than semantics.   Your entire argument was based on calling my idea totalitarian and equating them with Venezuela but that is hard to do when talking about the specific policies. 

oh no... here I go shutting down again

I know you don't care what words are used. As a result of not caring what words are used, you also do not care about logic, since logic can not be formulated without words and designated definitions of them. Of course you don't value intelligence by your own admission so...

There is a big difference between words having a definition and semantics. Marxism is inherently totalitarian, it is a fact not only demonstrated by logic but hundreds of years of history of failures of it. You have people who live there telling you that you are mistaken and you still worship at the feet of your god, the bearded ass boil infested free shit santa you call Marx.

Maybe you can prey to him to bring you a dictionary so you can learn how words are actually defined instead of changing them at your convenience and accusing me of relying on semantics in the same breath. Even your criticisms of me aren't even original, they are simply a regurgitated refractory repetition of what I just said to you. I have had more interesting debates with 8 year olds.

[coins4commies]

Since I take no part in name-calling, I will play the game by your rules and use all of your definitions and see if we get anywhere.

"Marxism is totalitarian"

ok fine.  Then I am not marxist and in that case, I and every other democratic socialist I've seen in the US denounce marxism and therefore denounce marxist policies that have led to failures throughout history. 

[TECSHARE]

Since I take no part in name-calling, I will play the game by your rules and use all of your definitions and see if we get anywhere.

"Marxism is totalitarian"

ok fine.  Then I am not marxist and in that case, I and every other democratic socialist I've seen in the US denounce marxism and therefore denounce marxist policies that have led to failures throughout history. 

See, but you are a Marxist, because you support Marxist ideologies. This is just you picking more words to redefine. "Democratic Socialism" is nothing more than Fabian Socialism renamed, also an off chute of Marxism.

[coins4commies]

I don't redefine anything but am aware that there are multiple definitions in use for the same words across different time periods, groups of people, and regions.  Being able to consider multiple perspectives is part of social intelligence.  I don't support any totalitarian ideologies.  I support the same things they have in Denmark, which you just said is not socialist, but I am, so you are stuck in this endless loop of semantics.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-does-socialism-mean-and-how-is-it-shaping-2020/

Kazin said the socialism most Americans are embracing is what Europeans would call social democracy, a view associated with mainstream parties like the Labour Party in the U.K. and the SPD in Germany. This version, Kazin said, advocates "a much larger welfare state where everyone is pretty much guaranteed a place to live, a job, or at least good benefits if they can't find a job, health care that they can afford, which is subsidized by the government."

After decades on the fringes of American political discourse, the Democratic Socialists of America is enjoying a surge in membership and interest. Although still small compared to other political interest groups, it's ballooned from 7,000 to some 50,000 members since the 2016 election, according to organizers. Ocasio-Cortez is a member, as is fellow first-term Rep. Rashida Tlaib.

Chris Riddiough, a founding member of the Democratic Socialists of America who now serves as a DSA National Political Committee member, said DSA strives to represent a "big tent" of socialism. But at its core, she says, socialism entails a belief that the American economy treats people unfairly and must be put on a new course.

"In DSA we define our politics as a big tent of socialism," Riddiough said. "And that means our view is that there is not a correct line on socialism. But in general, we believe that it encompasses the idea of economic and political and civil democracy so that people have the resources they need to make it in the world. So we support things like Medicare for All, some of the recent child-care proposals, college tuition breaks, things like that. And we believe that the economy in particular over the last 20, 30 years or so has become increasingly undemocratic."

These are the same things the Danish PM talked about.  You can't say we are marxists and then say Denmark is not without pointing out significant differences in policy.  I will let you choose whatever labels you want, but they have to be applied consistently.


you to a T

[TECSHARE]

I don't redefine anything but am aware that there are multiple definitions in use for the same words across different time periods, groups of people, and regions.  Being able to consider multiple perspectives is part of social intelligence.  I don't support any totalitarian ideologies.  I support the same things they have in Denmark, which you just said is not socialist, but I am, so you are stuck in this endless loop of semantics.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-does-socialism-mean-and-how-is-it-shaping-2020/

Kazin said the socialism most Americans are embracing is what Europeans would call social democracy, a view associated with mainstream parties like the Labour Party in the U.K. and the SPD in Germany. This version, Kazin said, advocates "a much larger welfare state where everyone is pretty much guaranteed a place to live, a job, or at least good benefits if they can't find a job, health care that they can afford, which is subsidized by the government."

After decades on the fringes of American political discourse, the Democratic Socialists of America is enjoying a surge in membership and interest. Although still small compared to other political interest groups, it's ballooned from 7,000 to some 50,000 members since the 2016 election, according to organizers. Ocasio-Cortez is a member, as is fellow first-term Rep. Rashida Tlaib.

Chris Riddiough, a founding member of the Democratic Socialists of America who now serves as a DSA National Political Committee member, said DSA strives to represent a "big tent" of socialism. But at its core, she says, socialism entails a belief that the American economy treats people unfairly and must be put on a new course.

"In DSA we define our politics as a big tent of socialism," Riddiough said. "And that means our view is that there is not a correct line on socialism. But in general, we believe that it encompasses the idea of economic and political and civil democracy so that people have the resources they need to make it in the world. So we support things like Medicare for All, some of the recent child-care proposals, college tuition breaks, things like that. And we believe that the economy in particular over the last 20, 30 years or so has become increasingly undemocratic."

These are the same things the Danish PM talked about.  You can't say we are marxists and then say Denmark is not without pointing out significant differences in policy.  I will let you choose whatever labels you want, but they have to be applied consistently.


you to a T

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and destructive. Cartoons are always the epoch of any internet debate. Lets look at this gem of logic and reason.

1. You espouse Marxist policies.
2. You claim you want Socialism like in Nordic countries.
3. I point out those aren't Socialist countries.
4. I again refer to #1.
5. You then point back at me as if the gap in logic is my responsibility because I referred to #1.

The logical fallacy is yours. You are unable to create a simple logical premise with defined terminology and follow through with logic to support it. You rely completely on dancing about from point to point when cornered, constantly shifting perspectives as if schizophrenic and consider it a valid argument.

This is why Critical Theory, Postmodernism, and the Marxist base they came from are all brainwashing cancerous trash. You are walking proof of it. Your mind is completely incapable of defining terminology, presenting a premise, and following through with those definitions until the conclusion of a SINGLE ARGUMENT. Then you have the nerve to preach to me about semantics. You are an infant who thinks he is a God. When everything becomes relative, everything becomes irrelevant. Your mind is mush.

[coins4commies]

We were far off topic because you insist on accusing me of supporting Venezuela's failed policies.  I don't.  No one does.  Then I brought up the policies I do support and the countries that have those policies which had nothing to do with OP/Venezuela.  You desperately want to create a group of people who support Venezuela's policies but it just doesn't exist, not in the US. 

I don't redefine anything but am aware that there are multiple definitions in use for the same words across different time periods, groups of people, and regions.  Being able to consider multiple perspectives is part of social intelligence.  I don't support any totalitarian ideologies.  I support the same things they have in Denmark, which you just said is not socialist, but I am, so you are stuck in this endless loop of semantics.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-does-socialism-mean-and-how-is-it-shaping-2020/

Kazin said the socialism most Americans are embracing is what Europeans would call social democracy, a view associated with mainstream parties like the Labour Party in the U.K. and the SPD in Germany. This version, Kazin said, advocates "a much larger welfare state where everyone is pretty much guaranteed a place to live, a job, or at least good benefits if they can't find a job, health care that they can afford, which is subsidized by the government."

After decades on the fringes of American political discourse, the Democratic Socialists of America is enjoying a surge in membership and interest. Although still small compared to other political interest groups, it's ballooned from 7,000 to some 50,000 members since the 2016 election, according to organizers. Ocasio-Cortez is a member, as is fellow first-term Rep. Rashida Tlaib.

Chris Riddiough, a founding member of the Democratic Socialists of America who now serves as a DSA National Political Committee member, said DSA strives to represent a "big tent" of socialism. But at its core, she says, socialism entails a belief that the American economy treats people unfairly and must be put on a new course.

"In DSA we define our politics as a big tent of socialism," Riddiough said. "And that means our view is that there is not a correct line on socialism. But in general, we believe that it encompasses the idea of economic and political and civil democracy so that people have the resources they need to make it in the world. So we support things like Medicare for All, some of the recent child-care proposals, college tuition breaks, things like that. And we believe that the economy in particular over the last 20, 30 years or so has become increasingly undemocratic."

These are the same things the Danish PM talked about.  You can't say we are marxists and then say Denmark is not without pointing out significant differences in policy.  I will let you choose whatever labels you want, but they have to be applied consistently.


you to a T

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and destructive. Cartoons are always the epoch of any internet debate. Lets look at this gem of logic and reason.

1. You espouse Marxist policies.
2. You claim you want Socialism like in Nordic countries.
3. I point out those aren't Socialist countries.
4. I again refer to #1.
5. You then point back at me as if the gap in logic is my responsibility because I referred to #1.

The logical fallacy is yours. You are unable to create a simple logical premise with defined terminology and follow through with logic to support it. You rely completely on dancing about from point to point when cornered, constantly shifting perspectives as if schizophrenic and consider it a valid argument.

This is why Critical Theory, Postmodernism, and the Marxist base they came from are all brainwashing cancerous trash. You are walking proof of it. Your mind is completely incapable of defining terminology, presenting a premise, and following through with those definitions until the conclusion of a SINGLE ARGUMENT. Then you have the nerve to preach to me about semantics. You are an infant who thinks he is a God. When everything becomes relative, everything becomes irrelevant. Your mind is mush.

You skipped the part betwween 3 and 4 where I laid out all of the policies I support, and provided matching quotes directly from your article of the prime minister explaining what Denmark believes it.  Either they are marxist or they aren't but they are the same policies.  I laid them all out and you have avoided the specific policies because staying vague makes it a lot easier to keep a semantic feedback loop alive.    You've ignored all of the quotes from articles, all of the policy positions and have no explained what I have in common with Venezuela but don't have in common with Denmark.  30% of your posts are name-calling and personal attacks...but I am the child.

[TECSHARE]

We were far off topic because you insist on accusing me of supporting Venezuela's failed policies.  I don't.  No one does.

These are all observably false statements. If you were not talking about Venezuela wtf were you doing in the thread about Venezuela to begin with? I am done with this nub of a thread, you enjoy yourself.

Minutes after writing my previous post internet went out, and later electricity, for nearly 24 hours more. We had another whole night in darkness...

The ineptitude of those usurping power "in the name of socialism" is the only reason this is occurring. Not any "evil" imperialist action. If the US actually engaged their cyber division, it would be combined with something else...

As i have wrote before in other posts, they have have let all State owned companies rot, mostly because of their same failed economic policies.

Someone related to the State company wrote some numbers:

• Venezuela depends 80% from the single Guri hydroelectric dam
• Over 70% of the transformers nationwide are past their due lifetime
• 48% of the workers have quit, and left the country (due to the miserable wages)

There is a LONG transmission line from the south of the country where this dam is to the north where most of the population lives. Chávez himself noted this weakness in 2010 (when a similar blackout incident occurred for a few hours) and spent countless millions purchasing and building a backup system using natural gas, but all of this is gone under Maduro...

Within this transmission line, a critical substation (Malena) near the dam has been neglected any maintenance, the foliage grew up so much it shutdown two 765 kW lines and a third by overload. This is to give you an example of the truth behind "imperialist US attacks", and the kind of trustworthiness Maduro has.

I am sorry your very relevant post got separated out because of a leftist numbskull comfortable in a functional capitalist nation is unable to handle criticism. I hope you can find a way to maintain your independence and rebuild society in spite of all these international forces wishing to interfere, be it the USA, Russia, or China.

[coins4commies]

I entered the thread to call out US aggression, interference and potential sabotage.  I came with the "handsoffvenezuela" mindset that has nothing to do with what their government is doing.  There is always an excuse though.  Just like Syra, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, and all of the other instances of American-manufactured suffering.

Saying my country should stop interfering with them is not the same thing as "defending" them.  I'm not just against intervention because it is immoral and causes suffering around the world, I'm also against intervention for the libertarian reason that it is costly, undemocratic and does not serve a direct purpose in the everyday lives of Americans.  I don't think you realize that when we all did a political test, I was the least authoritarian (or most libertarian) leaning person on this board.  

[Artemis3]

I am sorry your very relevant post got separated out because of a leftist numbskull comfortable in a functional capitalist nation is unable to handle criticism. I hope you can find a way to maintain your independence and rebuild society in spite of all these international forces wishing to interfere, be it the USA, Russia, or China.

I moved the messages to the other thread as per request of a moderator, thanks.

[coins4commies]

Along the same lines of my issue with TECSHARE, Dana Bash from CNN insisted on asking Tulsi Gabbard to identify as a capitalist or a socialist.  Tulsi said those words are thrown around just to take advantage of the fact that people have so many varying definitions on the terms that they aren't useful anymore.  Tulsi refused to answer these questions even though Dana followed up with more.  Twtter is exploding right now.
https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1104914189880098817

Bash: I understand what you're saying about labels, but are you a capitalist?
Tulsi:

"I’m an independent-minded person, I’m a Democrat and my sole focus and purpose is to figure out how we can best serve the people of this country.”

[Jet Cash]

Just a note here.

It isn't the US that is attacking Venezuela and trying to steal their natural assets. It is the country that subjugates Americans, and uses their citizens to fund and fight their wars and die. You may have heard of this country - it is called Washington.