TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
 |
August 07, 2019, 05:39:19 AM |
|
Any website that acts as a public forum is pretty much guaranteed to have child porn on it at one time or another,
Maybe the ones you visit  I love the way you phrased this and just skipped over the whole fascistic stifling of free speech and framed it in such a way as if I am arguing against you I am arguing in support of child porn.
Nobody is guaranteed free speech on a forum. Nobody. That's not how forums work, and its not how freedom of speech works. I know you think this is cute right now because you think it is being applied to "your enemies" but the fact is these are your rights being taken.
Again, posting on a forum isn't a "right." 8chan doesn't have the "right" to be hosted by Cloudflare. This is why you get so upset at FH and have to create locked threads on Meta about him, because you think he is infringing on your rights. You don't have the right to freedom of speech here, get over it. Make your own free speech forum where you can post whatever you want and un-ironically delete everybody's posts that you personally find to be off-topic. I am just not as retarded as you and understand this means the end of rights for all of us
Are you sure about that? You don't have the right to post on a forum. How could you claim to not be as retarded as me when I know this and you don't? Furthermore, how could this lead to the end of rights for all of us? That's simply ridiculous, get a grip. Stop using hyperbole as your go-to counterargument tactic. Hopefully one day in the future when you realize how much you were cheering for creating the prison you and all your loved ones will be doomed to live in, the torment of realizing what you advocated for won't make you want to just blow your brains out on the spot. You still have time.
Why do I get the feeling that you're on the verge of tears every time you post on this forum? Do you ever stop to consider how ridiculous the words you are posting sound at face value? Me, 20 years from now: https://previews.123rf.com/images/ljupco/ljupco1011/ljupco101100102/8280075-a-view-of-a-sad-prisoner-in-jail-holding-bars-isolated-on-white-background.jpg"I defended Cloudflare's decision to boot 8chan, and it led to not only my lifelong imprisonment, but all my friends and family as well... I should have listed to tecshare!!!"  Uh, no. Child porn is unfortunately endemic on the internet on all the most popular social media sites. The difference is they have larger staff to remove it faster or do so using automation. People like you love saying "build your own site" but that is exactly what 8chan did. Now they are being denied critical infrastructure to make that possible. This is no different than fascism with corporate and government entities operating in coordination to prevent targeted groups from being able to speak freely. Would you make the same argument that Verizon should be able to decide people are unfit to use a phone because of their legally protected speech? When does it end? How long will it be before you can't buy food or water if you say the wrong things by your metric? You get that feeling because you tend to project your own emotional state onto others. I don't much care what people with their heads buried up their asses think of me. Don't listen to me, listen to reality all around you that you work so very hard to ignore every single day. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
nutildah
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2968
Merit: 7940
|
|
August 07, 2019, 05:49:33 AM |
|
People like you love saying "build your own site" but that is exactly what 8chan did. Now they are being denied critical infrastructure to make that possible.
No, they're not. The story you linked said they had already found another company to host them. Regardless, Cloudflare is not obligated to continue hosting them. This is no different than fascism with corporate and government entities operating in coordination to prevent targeted groups from being able to speak freely.
Again, you go straight to the hyperbole in lieu of reasoned debate. I know you like to present any 'ol conspiracy that pops into your head as fact but there's zero evidence of "corporate and government entities operating in coordination." If this was the case, why wouldn't the government demand that Bitmitigate cease hosting 8chan? Would you make the same argument that Verizon should be able to decide people are unfit to use a phone because of their legally protected speech?
Absolutely. That is their right. However, they are not going to do this because it would not be a good move business-wise for them. If it was in the best interest of their business, perhaps they would. When does it end? How long will it be before you can't buy food or water if you say the wrong things by your metric?
More hyperbolic hyperbole. Absolute ridiculousness. Never. The answer is it will never be that long. You're way too paranoid. You are the #1 threat to yourself, always have been, always will be. You get that feeling because you tend to project your own emotional state onto others. I don't much care what people with their heads buried up their asses think of me.
That's a long-winded way of writing "no u." Don't listen to me
OK. |
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 07, 2019, 07:27:46 AM
Last edit: August 07, 2019, 09:34:03 PM by TECSHARE |
|
People like you love saying "build your own site" but that is exactly what 8chan did. Now they are being denied critical infrastructure to make that possible.
No, they're not. The story you linked said they had already found another company to host them. Regardless, Cloudflare is not obligated to continue hosting them. This is no different than fascism with corporate and government entities operating in coordination to prevent targeted groups from being able to speak freely.
Again, you go straight to the hyperbole in lieu of reasoned debate. I know you like to present any 'ol conspiracy that pops into your head as fact but there's zero evidence of "corporate and government entities operating in coordination." If this was the case, why wouldn't the government demand that Bitmitigate cease hosting 8chan? Would you make the same argument that Verizon should be able to decide people are unfit to use a phone because of their legally protected speech?
Absolutely. That is their right. However, they are not going to do this because it would not be a good move business-wise for them. If it was in the best interest of their business, perhaps they would. When does it end? How long will it be before you can't buy food or water if you say the wrong things by your metric?
More hyperbolic hyperbole. Absolute ridiculousness. Never. The answer is it will never be that long. You're way too paranoid. You are the #1 threat to yourself, always have been, always will be. You get that feeling because you tend to project your own emotional state onto others. I don't much care what people with their heads buried up their asses think of me.
That's a long-winded way of writing "no u." Don't listen to me
OK. So your point is all of these companies have the right to form effective monopolies, then deny anyone they don't like services? How long do you think it will be before sites like Bitcointalk are denied these services? Ask Theymos how things would run around here without access to Cloudflare. It is not at all hyperbole. Just because it is happening indirectly doesn't mean it isn't happening. For you to pretend that censorship is not brought on by government and corporate pressure is absolutely asinine and intentionally ignorant. It is not even up for debate. Just because they haven't crushed everyone on every outlet yet does not mean they aren't denying access to tons of basic services which are in effect monopolies. Regarding Verizon, you are incorrect. They do not have that right, as they are regulated as a utility, as such they do not have the legal authority to deny people service based on their speech (short of it violating law). Again, this is 100% a valid point as this trend has been and will continue, and by your metric its perfectly ok to deny basic goods and services to people based only upon their speech. This is the INEVITABLE result of your logic. You just pretending it will never go that far is not a valid retort. All this is, is the American version of the Chinese social credit system. Soon people who say the wrong things will not be able to leave the country, use public transport, open a bank account, have a phone, or any of the basic necessities in a modern life. Don't worry though, you called me paranoid, so everything will be fine. https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/the-brain-washing-of-the-partisan-bubbles-and-the-erosion-of-civil-liberties-to-stop-a-preceived-existential-threat/ |
|
|
|
|
theymos
Administrator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 5180
Merit: 12900
|
|
August 07, 2019, 09:00:21 PM |
|
It's concerning. 8chan is a "free platform" site like bitcointalk.org, aiming to maximize what users can do. I'll be interested to see how they fare with their new DDoS protection. If they're still using it in a year, I'll look into switching to it for bitcointalk.org. The ultimate solution here is decentralized forums, though. I wish there was more work in this direction, but most of it is minimal-effort hype without substance. If section 230 is eliminated as some have proposed, centralized "territories of freedom" won't really be able to exist. |
1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
|
|
|
TimeBits
Member
Offline
Activity: 224
Merit: 62
|
|
August 07, 2019, 09:34:05 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2019, 09:52:42 PM by TimeBits |
|
We already are IMPRISONED BY THE $YNDICATE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ot2FFc_Qq4 ✔️Beaten by my own police multiple times ✔️Used as a $lave my entire live ✔️Medical department holding me down being peaceful injecting me with random needles Who the fuck cares at this point END ME! YOU DO ME A FAVOR MOTHER FUCKER! SICK FUCKING BASTARDS Give everyone 1280937192873981 nukes and rifles! we don`t fucking deserve to live as a race HUMAN. We fucking enslave other species and fuck them up for our own greed, heck were so fucking dumb we even en$lave our own fucking kind. I can`t wait for aliens to come by and look at what we do to cows and carrots and fuck us all in the ass. I accept the probe as reparations to all the other species our race has fucked and what we have done to this world. We all deserve to be wiped. Creator, take my life, forgive them for they not know what they do, Forgive me for I was one of them before, Give them more duration to understand, We all grow at different rates, BTW PEDOS that is why young cheeries and grapes taste very sour, the are not ready to eaten, look into nature you will solve this life. It is all around you! FAREWELL |
|
|
|
|
nutildah
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2968
Merit: 7940
|
|
August 08, 2019, 04:33:00 AM |
|
So your point is all of these companies have the right to form effective monopolies, then deny anyone they don't like services?
No, I never said any of that. Obviously what Cloudflare does isn't a monopoly. How long do you think it will be before sites like Bitcointalk are denied these services?
Never, because this isn't the breeding grounds of manifesto-writing mass murderers. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/founder-8chan-wishes-he-could-uncreate-forum-popular-white-supremacists-n1039496“There is no way I can go back and uncreate 8chan,” Brennan, 25, told NBC News on Tuesday from his home in the Philippines. “If I could, I would, but there is no way to do that. So the main way I have dealt with the guilt is to go on the offensive.” Ask Theymos how things would run around here without access to Cloudflare. It is not at all hyperbole. Just because it is happening indirectly doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is hyperbole until it happens, or comes close to happening. What's happening is you like getting worked up over conspiracies that don't effect you in any way, shape, or form. We're on the brink of civil war according to you, so its hard to take anything you have to say very seriously. For you to pretend that censorship is not brought on by government and corporate pressure is absolutely asinine and intentionally ignorant. It is not even up for debate. Just because they haven't crushed everyone on every outlet yet does not mean they aren't denying access to tons of basic services which are in effect monopolies.
Provide some evidence. Just a shred. Its not up for debate with you because you can't present a rational debate. You live in the richest, free-est country in the world, and all you do is bitch about how unfair everything is and how America is on the brink of ruin. Get a grip. Regarding Verizon, you are incorrect. They do not have that right, as they are regulated as a utility, as such they do not have the legal authority to deny people service based on their speech (short of it violating law).
OK, well I can't find any specific law that backs this statement, but I will give the benefit of the doubt here because it actually makes sense at face value. Again, this is 100% a valid point as this trend has been and will continue, and by your metric its perfectly ok to deny basic goods and services to people based only upon their speech. This is the INEVITABLE result of your logic.
There is a giant difference between being denied food and water and being denied DDoS protection services. Only in a place as spoiled and entitled as America would people get this confused. You just pretending it will never go that far is not a valid retort.
Its more valid than pretending that it will, because so far, you're wrong, and I'm right. It hasn't happened. When people are denied food and water based on the content of their speech, I will admit I was wrong. Until then, you're wrong. All this is, is the American version of the Chinese social credit system. Soon people who say the wrong things will not be able to leave the country, use public transport, open a bank account, have a phone, or any of the basic necessities in a modern life. Don't worry though, you called me paranoid, so everything will be fine.
Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Yes, you are paranoid. Where do you think is a better place to live in the world? I am genuinely curious. Which nation do you think does a better job of protecting your freedoms? |
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 08, 2019, 07:52:16 AM |
|
So your point is all of these companies have the right to form effective monopolies, then deny anyone they don't like services?
No, I never said any of that. Obviously what Cloudflare does isn't a monopoly. How long do you think it will be before sites like Bitcointalk are denied these services?
Never, because this isn't the breeding grounds of manifesto-writing mass murderers. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/founder-8chan-wishes-he-could-uncreate-forum-popular-white-supremacists-n1039496“There is no way I can go back and uncreate 8chan,” Brennan, 25, told NBC News on Tuesday from his home in the Philippines. “If I could, I would, but there is no way to do that. So the main way I have dealt with the guilt is to go on the offensive.” Ask Theymos how things would run around here without access to Cloudflare. It is not at all hyperbole. Just because it is happening indirectly doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is hyperbole until it happens, or comes close to happening. What's happening is you like getting worked up over conspiracies that don't effect you in any way, shape, or form. We're on the brink of civil war according to you, so its hard to take anything you have to say very seriously. For you to pretend that censorship is not brought on by government and corporate pressure is absolutely asinine and intentionally ignorant. It is not even up for debate. Just because they haven't crushed everyone on every outlet yet does not mean they aren't denying access to tons of basic services which are in effect monopolies.
Provide some evidence. Just a shred. Its not up for debate with you because you can't present a rational debate. You live in the richest, free-est country in the world, and all you do is bitch about how unfair everything is and how America is on the brink of ruin. Get a grip. Regarding Verizon, you are incorrect. They do not have that right, as they are regulated as a utility, as such they do not have the legal authority to deny people service based on their speech (short of it violating law).
OK, well I can't find any specific law that backs this statement, but I will give the benefit of the doubt here because it actually makes sense at face value. Again, this is 100% a valid point as this trend has been and will continue, and by your metric its perfectly ok to deny basic goods and services to people based only upon their speech. This is the INEVITABLE result of your logic.
There is a giant difference between being denied food and water and being denied DDoS protection services. Only in a place as spoiled and entitled as America would people get this confused. You just pretending it will never go that far is not a valid retort.
Its more valid than pretending that it will, because so far, you're wrong, and I'm right. It hasn't happened. When people are denied food and water based on the content of their speech, I will admit I was wrong. Until then, you're wrong. All this is, is the American version of the Chinese social credit system. Soon people who say the wrong things will not be able to leave the country, use public transport, open a bank account, have a phone, or any of the basic necessities in a modern life. Don't worry though, you called me paranoid, so everything will be fine.
Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Yes, you are paranoid. Where do you think is a better place to live in the world? I am genuinely curious. Which nation do you think does a better job of protecting your freedoms? Except by every metric it does. Lets look at Cloudflare's market share. https://www.statista.com/statistics/985443/worldwide-ddos-bot-protection-market-share/Over 81% of market share. Check. Lets look at the requisites for determining a monopoly according to the FTC. "Market Power Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. Courts look at the firm's market share, but typically do not find monopoly power if the firm (or a group of firms acting in concert) has less than 50 percent of the sales of a particular product or service within a certain geographic area. Some courts have required much higher percentages. In addition, that leading position must be sustainable over time: if competitive forces or the entry of new firms could discipline the conduct of the leading firm, courts are unlikely to find that the firm has lasting market power. Exclusionary Conduct Judging the conduct of an alleged monopolist requires an in-depth analysis of the market and the means used to achieve or maintain the monopoly. Obtaining a monopoly by superior products, innovation, or business acumen is legal; however, the same result achieved by exclusionary or predatory acts may raise antitrust concerns. Exclusionary or predatory acts may include such things as exclusive supply or purchase agreements; tying; predatory pricing; or refusal to deal. These topics are discussed in separate Fact Sheets for Single Firm Conduct." https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-definedExclusionary acts. Check. Cloudflare is very arguably an illegal monopoly. Furthermore almost no one can handle the amount of traffic that Cloudflare can, putting them in a unique position that other competitors can not functionally replace. A "breeding grounds of manifesto-writing mass murderers" according to what factual information? Oh you mean the former owner. I am sure there is no bias there. No need to actually prove the claims either, just make them and they become fact by virtue of media magic. They say it, and you repeat it as fact. Nothing at all subjective about this. Nope. 8chan creates mass murdering Nazis. End of story! They certainly aren't created by other factors and happen to congregate in places where speech is not restricted. Everyone knows (unproven) correlation always equals causation! It's science! Your denial does not count as a valid logical retort, neither does your accusations of "getting worked up over conspiracies that don't effect you in any way". That has nothing to do with the argument and is simply an ad hominem attack. Also just because you are too dense to realize this effects all of us doesn't mean it doesn't effect me. If one person loses their rights, it is only a matter of time before we all do, because that is how law works. Via precedent. Coincidentally this is also the same process that allows willfully ignorant ostriches such as you to acclimate to their new found servitude, via incrementalism. If you were only walking towards your own enslavement I wouldn't mind, but you and people like you are dragging us all along for the ride the whole time never once questioning if you could be wrong. No problem. It is not up for debate because anyone who cares to make any effort to look will see it everywhere. Here are a few sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_United_Stateshttps://harvardlawreview.org/2014/06/the-brave-new-world-of-social-media-censorship/https://www.cjr.org/analysis/censorship_in_the_social_media_age.phphttps://www.eff.org/es/deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-censored-internethttps://www.rt.com/news/436058-censorship-left-right-facebook-google/You are right, this is a great country, and I want to protect the laws and culture that keep it great. The statement that "all you do is bitch about how unfair everything is and how America is on the brink of ruin" is completely projection on your part. Calling attention to a problem is not equivalent to calling it inevitable or unsolvable. Unfortunately ostriches such as yourself make it much more likely because by the time the slower folks realize what happened it will be far too late to change it without considerable costs and suffering. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/report-verizon-fios-gets-perks-from-government-while-avoiding-regulations/What is the difference? Tell me. How do you buy food without a bank account or credit card? How do you pay for a place to live? Pay for utilities? People are already being stripped of their bank accounts for their speech currently. What exactly prevents this trend from continuing and expanding? Once again your argument consists entirely of an ad hominem attack. "Its more valid than pretending that it will, because so far, you're wrong, and I'm right." Well shit, since you declare you are right and I am wrong, that is all the logical argument needed! The problem with your logic is by the time you pull your head out of your ass it will be far too late to do anything about it and cost individuals far too much to resist, so they won't. We still have a window of opportunity to expose and resist this trend, but that is closing fast. Again, your argument consists of nothing but ad hominem attacks. There doesn't have to be a place with better protections for my arguments to be valid. You just claiming it hasn't happened and won't happen is not an argument. That is called denial. Denial with zero substantiation. The shootings in New Zealand as well as in the USA are being used as pretext to condition the general public to the idea of giving up freedom for the promise of security. This is a fools bargain and is a lie. Giving up freedom for the promise of security will result in having neither. |
|
|
|
|
theymos
Administrator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 5180
Merit: 12900
|
|
August 08, 2019, 06:47:54 PM |
|
Cloudflare has a right to do what they want with their property, but it's concerning all the same.
The Internet is, unfortunately, not a magic cloud where things can live on their own. It's service providers all the way down:
- Terrorists post on 8/pol/. These people are bad.
- The 8/pol/ board owner may or may not want the terrorists posting there. If not, then he's an innocent third-party, but he's blamed. (In one of the previous shootings, I read that the 8/pol/ moderators removed the shooter's posts and reported it to the police within minutes.)
- 8/pol/ lives on 8chan, a huge collection of boards, many of them completely unrelated to politics. 8chan's boards are similar to Reddit's subreddits, with independent board owners. But 8chan as a whole is blamed for the terrorists.
- 8chan uses several service providers directly: hosting, domain registration, etc. These are blamed for the terrorists.
- Because the Internet is fundamentally flawed, every site needs DDoS protection, and Cloudflare offers by far the best value in that area. (I think that they're probably subsidized by the NSA in order to act as a honeypot, but perhaps they're just really effective.) You could use a different service or roll your own, but this would cost several thousand $/month more to get equivalent service, and in any case you're introducing more service providers who will be blamed for the terrorists.
- The hosting companies have their own ISPs, who have their own ISPs, etc., who could all be blamed for the terrorists. At the top, you have the backbone providers who mutually rely on each other and could blame each other for terrorists on their network.
For freedom to exist, at some point service providers have to have the courage to say, "Those people using my services through n degrees of separation are evil, but trying to stop them would harm freedom more than help it, so I'm not going to do so." By dropping a site with very few real issues, based on uninformed public outcry, Cloudflare failed here. The government should stay out of it, but it creates an argument for Cloudflare being unreliable & anti-freedom. (They also opened up a huge can of worms, since now they'll get complaints about basically every site they host.)
The whole situation also exposes the serious flaws of the Internet, which may someday destroy it: firstly, the fact that DDoS protection is needed at all; and secondly, the existence of this endless chain of services that you need to trust not to take you down.
|
1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 10, 2019, 05:31:00 AM
Last edit: August 10, 2019, 06:50:49 AM by TECSHARE |
|
Cloudflare is not an illegal monopoly. You're not a court -- you don't make these decisions. Here's what the current CEO of Cloudflare had to say about their decision: First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone. You can fantasize away that the government forced their hand here, but you are without any sort of evidence. Calling attention to a problem is not equivalent to calling it inevitable or unsolvable. Just like the problem of the U.S. being on the brink of a civil war, right?  Also just because you are too dense to realize this effects all of us doesn't mean it doesn't effect me. You are calling me out for using ad hominems and then engaging in the in the same thing yourself. Cloudflare's decision to discontinue hosting 8chan doesn't effect your freedom. It clearly effects your mental state, but none of your freedoms have been revoked or are at risk. You can visit 8chan today if you want, so what the hell are you bitching about? Your whole argument is a big pile of nothing. You just claiming it hasn't happened and won't happen is not an argument. Its a statement of fact. No one in the U.S. is being denied food or water because of their beliefs. And I guess things will stay that way so long as keyboard warriors hero citizens such as yourself are putting up the good fight right? The shootings in New Zealand as well as in the USA are being used as pretext to condition the general public to the idea of giving up freedom for the promise of security. This is a fools bargain and is a lie. Giving up freedom for the promise of security will result in having neither. Conspiratard bullshit. Nobody's freedoms are being alienated here, and if people think that they are, I say fuck 'em, they're part of the problem. 9/11 was a much bigger pretext than all of the mass shootings put together. You're welcome to continue believing what you will, just don't expect others to. Just because they haven't been prosecuted doesn't make it not a monopoly. The fact is Cloudflare meets all the requisite terms for a monopoly. I don't have to be a court to observe facts. Furthermore the CEO is talking about revenue, not market share. These are very different things. 9/11 is the perfect example of using fear to strip rights. 9/11 was the perfect excuse to create massive uncontrolled surveillance programs, strip habeas corpus, posse comitatus, and train people to subject themselves to the regular submission of their rights in the name of security. There was more American freedom taken away under The P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act than any terrorist could ever take. I find it amazing you are aware of this concept yet some how find it valid to argue it has not continued to escalate along this same path of stripping freedom for promises of security. I don't see any ad hominems directed at you, and even if they were there the difference is mine are surrounded by logical arguments, while yours consist only of personal attacks and are devoid of any other substance. I have arguments, you have only denial and name calling. Politicians are openly talking about abridging free speech and removing second amendment rights, and people such as yourself cheer because people always feel more comfortable thinking it is not for them, but only for "the bad guys". It is for everyone, including you, and just because you have chosen to pluck your own eyes out doesn't change this. "I AM THE MAJORITY!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIwf3d7hP9g"Joe Biden on whether his admin is 'going to come' for people's guns: 'Bingo'" http://www.stationgossip.com/2019/08/joe-biden-on-whether-his-admin-is-going.htmlThe rhetoric of stripping the rights of free speech and self defense are right out in the open among many of the mainstream candidates and press. Regardless of how many examples I present, you push your head even further up your ass and cry "NONONONONONO", because you are too weak too look at the painful reality of the situation and instead choose the comfortable lies, the promises these people give that it is only for the bad ones. BULLSHIT. They are coming for YOU and YOURS. This is always how it starts, and bloodshed is always how it ends. How about we just skip the part in the middle and the end and just preserve the rights? Cloudflare has a right to do what they want with their property, but it's concerning all the same.
The Internet is, unfortunately, not a magic cloud where things can live on their own. It's service providers all the way down:
- Terrorists post on 8/pol/. These people are bad.
- The 8/pol/ board owner may or may not want the terrorists posting there. If not, then he's an innocent third-party, but he's blamed. (In one of the previous shootings, I read that the 8/pol/ moderators removed the shooter's posts and reported it to the police within minutes.)
- 8/pol/ lives on 8chan, a huge collection of boards, many of them completely unrelated to politics. 8chan's boards are similar to Reddit's subreddits, with independent board owners. But 8chan as a whole is blamed for the terrorists.
- 8chan uses several service providers directly: hosting, domain registration, etc. These are blamed for the terrorists.
- Because the Internet is fundamentally flawed, every site needs DDoS protection, and Cloudflare offers by far the best value in that area. (I think that they're probably subsidized by the NSA in order to act as a honeypot, but perhaps they're just really effective.) You could use a different service or roll your own, but this would cost several thousand $/month more to get equivalent service, and in any case you're introducing more service providers who will be blamed for the terrorists.
- The hosting companies have their own ISPs, who have their own ISPs, etc., who could all be blamed for the terrorists. At the top, you have the backbone providers who mutually rely on each other and could blame each other for terrorists on their network.
For freedom to exist, at some point service providers have to have the courage to say, "Those people using my services through n degrees of separation are evil, but trying to stop them would harm freedom more than help it, so I'm not going to do so." By dropping a site with very few real issues, based on uninformed public outcry, Cloudflare failed here. The government should stay out of it, but it creates an argument for Cloudflare being unreliable & anti-freedom. (They also opened up a huge can of worms, since now they'll get complaints about basically every site they host.)
The whole situation also exposes the serious flaws of the Internet, which may someday destroy it: firstly, the fact that DDoS protection is needed at all; and secondly, the existence of this endless chain of services that you need to trust not to take you down.
In general I tend to agree with your libertarian stance. The problem is any ideology in its absolutist form is flawed, because any ideology can be subverted and abused to create the opposite of the intended effect. Drinking lots of water is good, but if they pass a law that you must be force fed gallons of water every day when you wake up, guess what, you are going to die. Any organization or ideology can be subverted, as a result decisions need to be made on the RESULTS of actions, not just on an ideological basis. That said, monopoly anti-trust laws exist for good reason, and have been a part of this country's legal process for a very long time. In fact when this nation was created corporations were very tightly controlled entities that at any moment could be crushed by revoking their charter the moment they did not serve the public good. Cloudflare DOES NOT have the right to occupy the position of a monopoly and thus deny people access to the infrastructure required to be a part of the modern world. You yourself admitted alternatives are not exactly available. Furthermore by the vary nature of this technology it can only exist at scale and as a result competition is limited and ineffectual in comparison. If this trend continues no one will be able to do simple things like use transportation, use electronic payment systems, communication systems, or any of the other basic necessities that are a requirement of survival in modern life, and I think you know this. |
|
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 19, 2019, 11:27:02 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 22, 2019, 04:52:41 AM |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
nutildah
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2968
Merit: 7940
|
|
August 24, 2019, 02:54:23 AM |
|
What does any of this have to do with the shooting in New Zealand? You've seemingly hijacked this thread to make it a launchpad for your own conspiracy theories. |
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 24, 2019, 04:17:03 AM |
|
What does any of this have to do with the shooting in New Zealand? You've seemingly hijacked this thread to make it a launchpad for your own conspiracy theories. So your point is all of these companies have the right to form effective monopolies, then deny anyone they don't like services?
No, I never said any of that. Obviously what Cloudflare does isn't a monopoly. How long do you think it will be before sites like Bitcointalk are denied these services?
Never, because this isn't the breeding grounds of manifesto-writing mass murderers. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/founder-8chan-wishes-he-could-uncreate-forum-popular-white-supremacists-n1039496“There is no way I can go back and uncreate 8chan,” Brennan, 25, told NBC News on Tuesday from his home in the Philippines. “If I could, I would, but there is no way to do that. So the main way I have dealt with the guilt is to go on the offensive.” Ask Theymos how things would run around here without access to Cloudflare. It is not at all hyperbole. Just because it is happening indirectly doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is hyperbole until it happens, or comes close to happening. What's happening is you like getting worked up over conspiracies that don't effect you in any way, shape, or form. We're on the brink of civil war according to you, so its hard to take anything you have to say very seriously. For you to pretend that censorship is not brought on by government and corporate pressure is absolutely asinine and intentionally ignorant. It is not even up for debate. Just because they haven't crushed everyone on every outlet yet does not mean they aren't denying access to tons of basic services which are in effect monopolies.
Provide some evidence. Just a shred. Its not up for debate with you because you can't present a rational debate. You live in the richest, free-est country in the world, and all you do is bitch about how unfair everything is and how America is on the brink of ruin. Get a grip. Regarding Verizon, you are incorrect. They do not have that right, as they are regulated as a utility, as such they do not have the legal authority to deny people service based on their speech (short of it violating law).
OK, well I can't find any specific law that backs this statement, but I will give the benefit of the doubt here because it actually makes sense at face value. Again, this is 100% a valid point as this trend has been and will continue, and by your metric its perfectly ok to deny basic goods and services to people based only upon their speech. This is the INEVITABLE result of your logic.
There is a giant difference between being denied food and water and being denied DDoS protection services. Only in a place as spoiled and entitled as America would people get this confused. You just pretending it will never go that far is not a valid retort.
Its more valid than pretending that it will, because so far, you're wrong, and I'm right. It hasn't happened. When people are denied food and water based on the content of their speech, I will admit I was wrong. Until then, you're wrong. All this is, is the American version of the Chinese social credit system. Soon people who say the wrong things will not be able to leave the country, use public transport, open a bank account, have a phone, or any of the basic necessities in a modern life. Don't worry though, you called me paranoid, so everything will be fine.
Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Yes, you are paranoid. Where do you think is a better place to live in the world? I am genuinely curious. Which nation do you think does a better job of protecting your freedoms? What happens when cash is banned an all that is available is private enterprise free to abuse their monopolies to crush any opposition with the full backing of the monopoly of force of government? |
|
|
|
|
nutildah
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2968
Merit: 7940
|
|
August 24, 2019, 04:53:28 AM Merited by darklus123 (1) |
|
What happens when cash is banned an all that is available is private enterprise free to abuse their monopolies to crush any opposition with the full backing of the monopoly of force of government?
I repeat my original question: What does any of this have to do with the shooting in New Zealand? You've seemingly hijacked this thread to make it a launchpad for your own conspiracy theories.
And you just doubled-down on this with your last reply. You're quite literally inventing fears at this point, none of which have anything to do with the New Zealand shooting. |
|
|
|
TECSHARE
In memoriam
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
|
|
August 24, 2019, 05:39:37 AM |
|
What happens when cash is banned an all that is available is private enterprise free to abuse their monopolies to crush any opposition with the full backing of the monopoly of force of government?
I repeat my original question: What does any of this have to do with the shooting in New Zealand? You've seemingly hijacked this thread to make it a launchpad for your own conspiracy theories.
And you just doubled-down on this with your last reply. You're quite literally inventing fears at this point, none of which have anything to do with the New Zealand shooting. I already answered your question in the form of a quote covering the related subject matter of using these events to strip rights. |
|
|
|
|
|
