Shipping on the Collectibles

[Agrawas]

Hi All,

It has been bugging me and wanted to ask this question from everyone, recently I have made some purchases here from the international sellers, so far everything has been smooth and have received all of my packages as expected. But I do have a question, with some recent high valued items shipped from other countries to here in US, there is no tracking, or even if there is tracking it can't be tracked via USPS, just incase the merchandise doesn't get delivered or lost for some reason, who is responsible for it? I know it's not the buyers or sellers issue but this is something I want to ask as in who will be responsible for it. Specially for unique items like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5092438.0, Just incase if the shipment was lost, the set can no longer be made. is it just me or is it other's feel the same way specially for a coin like this, the proper tracking or insurance should be added to ensure, it's covered for re-minting if needed.

Thanks in advance for all your input.

[1715605459]

1715605459

[1715605459]

1715605459

[OgNasty]

is it just me or is it other's feel the same way specially for a coin like this, the proper tracking or insurance should be added to ensure, it's covered for re-minting if needed.

Sometimes shipping with tracking and insurance can cost more than the item itself so I've noticed it is rarely used on international shipments here.  Personally, I think some sort of evidence needs to be presented showing the item was indeed shipped, but if it's lost in the mail you can only expect a seller to do so much if you did not make arrangements for insurance.  Even with tracking, I've noticed that sometimes it only tracks as far as customs.

[krogothmanhattan]

For high value items...in person delivery is wisest.

When not an option...fedex overnight.

Just my two Satoshi.

Btw...i have had REGISTERED items lost in customs.

[wheelz1200]

When shipping out from the US I always offer registered option to international folks (and within the US) which is as safe as it gets, and provides(should provide) tracking door to door for most countries.  But yeah really high values items, it's worth a plane ride to hand collect well worth the time and money for big ticket items.

[wheelz1200]

is it just me or is it other's feel the same way specially for a coin like this, the proper tracking or insurance should be added to ensure, it's covered for re-minting if needed.

Sometimes shipping with tracking and insurance can cost more than the item itself so I've noticed it is rarely used on international shipments here.  Personally, I think some sort of evidence needs to be presented showing the item was indeed shipped, but if it's lost in the mail you can only expect a seller to do so much if you did not make arrangements for insurance.  Even with tracking, I've noticed that sometimes it only tracks as far as customs.

Have you ever had an issue as escrow where an item didnt arrive?  How was it settled if you have.

[Agrawas]

With high valued items, I have just done deals for about 5-6k at a time, but for most I am guessing $400-500 is also a high priced item at times..

Me personally haven't reached the level where I can afford or need to travel to make an in-person transaction.

[OgNasty]

is it just me or is it other's feel the same way specially for a coin like this, the proper tracking or insurance should be added to ensure, it's covered for re-minting if needed.

Sometimes shipping with tracking and insurance can cost more than the item itself so I've noticed it is rarely used on international shipments here.  Personally, I think some sort of evidence needs to be presented showing the item was indeed shipped, but if it's lost in the mail you can only expect a seller to do so much if you did not make arrangements for insurance.  Even with tracking, I've noticed that sometimes it only tracks as far as customs.

Have you ever had an issue as escrow where an item didnt arrive?  How was it settled if you have.

I've had a shockingly low number of escrow deals that didn't go flawlessly.  In situations where issues arose, the traders were always able to resolve the issue themselves.  That being said, I cannot recall any instances where an item simply disappeared in shipping when escrowing for other users.

[Agrawas]

When shipping out from the US I always offer registered option to international folks (and within the US) which is as safe as it gets, and provides(should provide) tracking door to door for most countries.  But yeah really high values items, it's worth a plane ride to hand collect well worth the time and money for big ticket items.

I have been using USPS for ages and love what they do, but before my time here on forum, there has been instances where items shows has delivered but were stolen from door steps or delivered to wrong address or something. Luckily I was the buyer most of the time and was always covered with paypal insurance except for once when I mailed someone the package and it got lost and had to refund the whole amount due to buyer being covered by paypal insurance/guarantee.

[FFrankie]

I got an item lost in the mail, and the user who was a long time person here  told me that because they never received it they didnt have to pay. BUT than when they lost an item in the mail, they demanded they still get paid.    Ill never let it go. 

[Lesbian Cow]

When shipping out from the US I always offer registered option to international folks (and within the US) which is as safe as it gets, and provides(should provide) tracking door to door for most countries.  But yeah really high values items, it's worth a plane ride to hand collect well worth the time and money for big ticket items.

I have been using USPS for ages and love what they do, but before my time here on forum, there has been instances where items shows has delivered but were stolen from door steps or delivered to wrong address or something. Luckily I was the buyer most of the time and was always covered with paypal insurance except for once when I mailed someone the package and it got lost and had to refund the whole amount due to buyer being covered by paypal insurance/guarantee.

Get a PO Box.  Makes the issue of stolen packages disappear and shields your home address from public view. 

[FFrankie]

On a side note,

the USPS says if you dont overnight express shipping they don't offer tracking (with worldwide) but the few times ive sent packages overseas, with regular shipping. It still gave tracking, it wasnt that great, but it said when it arrived to customs, and left customs, and than when the actual package was delivered

That was 3ish years ago tho.

[Mitchell]

I always use a tracking service like 17track.net and parcelmonitor.com since they will show you tracking no matter where they come from/go to. USPS won't show you everything.

[tweetious]

On a side note,

the USPS says if you dont overnight express shipping they don't offer tracking (with worldwide) but the few times ive sent packages overseas, with regular shipping. It still gave tracking, it wasnt that great, but it said when it arrived to customs, and left customs, and than when the actual package was delivered

That was 3ish years ago tho.

Tracking is offered on all 1st class, Priority, and Express packages leaving the US for free
From my experience it is up to the receiving country if they update/transfer the delivery status when checking on USPS.com
Many times it is better to use that countries postal tracking once the parcel has entered said country, which may give more detailed information.
This has been helpful lately, as I used for a package that went to an EU country.

Since I constantly receiving various parcels, coming from the US to the EU, I can confirm that this is correct. Usually, tracking (through USPS tracking services) stops working uppon parcel leaves the states. Parcel tracking resumes (through my national postal tracking service) upon parcel enters my country. Usually tracking is very accurate and I can trace through all the various stages (enter/exit customs etc..). In some rare cases, there are extra tracking updates when parcel enters the EU (through a transfer airport), before reaching the destination country. The only blank spot is the timeslot between leaving US and reaching destination country. Usually, that takes 10-15 days. However, there were instances where I waited 30-40 days before tracking resumed at the destination country. Further, sometimes local postal service is lazy and forgets to scan the parcel at all. I received various parcels, with the last available tracking status update being leaving the states.

17track.net is a very nice global tracking service. It collects tracking information for various postal tracking services all around the world. You just enter your tracking number and returns all the available tracking information that is available through different country couriers.

[TECSHARE]

Hi All,

It has been bugging me and wanted to ask this question from everyone, recently I have made some purchases here from the international sellers, so far everything has been smooth and have received all of my packages as expected. But I do have a question, with some recent high valued items shipped from other countries to here in US, there is no tracking, or even if there is tracking it can't be tracked via USPS, just incase the merchandise doesn't get delivered or lost for some reason, who is responsible for it? I know it's not the buyers or sellers issue but this is something I want to ask as in who will be responsible for it. Specially for unique items like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5092438.0, Just incase if the shipment was lost, the set can no longer be made. is it just me or is it other's feel the same way specially for a coin like this, the proper tracking or insurance should be added to ensure, it's covered for re-minting if needed.

Thanks in advance for all your input.

This is exactly why I tend to avoid international trades. If it is worth doing I make it clear that once the item leaves the country I have fulfilled my obligations so that the buyer understands once it leaves the country I have no way to track or control the item. Most of these issues can be solved with a little communication beforehand.

[Agrawas]

So the Golden Question:
 If item is sent and tracking provided, item does not make it for whatever reason, ex lost or stolen...

          Does the seller have to issue a refund? Or does the buyer end up with nothing and not get his money back?

          If ESCROW is used...in what way shall the escrow money go to? The buyer or seller?

[Ticked]

So the Golden Question:
 If item is sent and tracking provided, item does not make it for whatever reason, ex lost or stolen...

          Does the seller have to issue a refund? Or does the buyer end up with nothing and not get his money back?

          If ESCROW is used...in what way shall the escrow money go to? The buyer or seller?

or Option C. Both parties take the hit. Pay 50% of the agreed cost. All parties are aware of the risk prior to shipping.

And yes, this brings up the potential for abuse by unscrupulous sellers who could intentionally address the package incorrectly and lie about the package being returned to sender.

Which brings up another question..

If money is in escrow, at what time frame should the package be deemed lost? Personally Id say the funds should remain for 3-4 months in escrow before a dispute should need be resolved.

Finally, If tracking were to show package successfully returned to sender - whether seller admits this occurred or not - I believe funds should be 100% returned to buyer.

All this said, I've received 100's packages from around the world and sent them equally. I've yet to experience a loss.

[jackbauercsgo]

So the Golden Question:
 If item is sent and tracking provided, item does not make it for whatever reason, ex lost or stolen...

          Does the seller have to issue a refund? Or does the buyer end up with nothing and not get his money back?

          If ESCROW is used...in what way shall the escrow money go to? The buyer or seller?

or Option C. Both parties take the hit. Pay 50% of the agreed cost. All parties are aware of the risk prior to shipping.

And yes, this brings up the potential for abuse by unscrupulous sellers who could intentionally address the package incorrectly and lie about the package being returned to sender.

Which brings up another question..

If money is in escrow, at what time frame should the package be deemed lost? Personally Id say the funds should remain for 3-4 months in escrow before a dispute should need be resolved.

Finally, If tracking were to show package successfully returned to sender - whether seller admits this occurred or not - I believe funds should be 100% returned to buyer.

All this said, I've received 100's packages from around the world and sent them equally. I've yet to experience a loss.

Several good options (like this proposed "option C"), but eventually I think we all need to agree on some form of conduct.  It's best to have some social policy everyone knows and expects & any deviation would be discussed before shipping.  This would be better than the current situation, where it's sort of up the the air/hope for the best.

[wttbs]

When shipping international with insurance you (both) are f*cked when a package gets lost.

Seller is responsible for handling the insurance with the shipping company. This always takes a long long time because insurance has cool-down periode, they will try to locate the lost package, this can take months up to a year. When package is lost: what was in the package and what is the value? seller is smart and takes many pictures of the item (including packing) that is shipped. Even with pictures, shipping company doesn't know shit about crypto-collectables. For example you sold a 2 ounce .999 silver coin, collectors value 0.5 BTC. If the shipping company/insurance pays out they will probably paid silver market value. In a very very rare case they payout the 0.5 BTC (because you seller and buyer have strong evidence regarding payment and collectorsvalue) they will pay in dollars the day value of BTC, at selling time 0.5BTC was $2000 and 7 months later it's worth $1000 you get $1000 (seller and buyer can make an agreement how to devide the loss). You are double f*cked, lost money/btc and the collectable coin is lost for ever (not mentioning time you both spend on the matter). If BTC value is (much) higher than the $2000 the insurance wil take the easy/cheap way and payout $2000 and you are lucky regarding $ but coin is lost. 

If I am a seller of a high value collectable crypto coin, I always make agreement with buyer I (seller) am not personally responsible for any loss of the coin nor can you garantee you can pay buy full buying price with it gets lost. The only wise thing for seller is to offer buyer you do as much as possible claiming insurance but the shipping/insurance company decides if and what to pay out. If buyer wants to save on cost when shipping with insurance, for example: coin is worth $4000 and buyer only want to pay for max $500 on insurance, all risk is for buyer.

If you are buyer of high value coins, meet in person to be sure, coin won't get lost by a third party/person/company. If meeting in person is not an option, pay for premium shipping with high insurance, for example: FEDEX or UPS overnight to minimize risk of package getting lost.

[legendster]

Get a PO Box.  Makes the issue of stolen packages disappear and shields your home address from public view. 

Excuse the naiveness and the abrupt barging in, aren't PO box size restricted? And what happens if you have to sign a customs declaration form on receipt? Usually postmen / delivery people carry that with them to get it signed upon parcel delivery.


In response to OP's question of shipment responsibility, I think the best bet is to get someone you trust to carry the shipment with them and had it over to you. I believe there are services for such things as well.

[krogothmanhattan]

Get a PO Box.  Makes the issue of stolen packages disappear and shields your home address from public view.  

Excuse the naiveness and the abrupt barging in, aren't PO box size restricted? And what happens if you have to sign a customs declaration form on receipt? Usually postmen / delivery people carry that with them to get it signed upon parcel delivery.

 They will leave a notice in your box at post office..all you gotta do is present that and pick up your item..regardless the size..and if any forms need to be signed you do it right there and then