Verizon came to my house, asked me to turn off my rigs

[gdeglin]

A couple Verizon techs knocked on my door today with a bunch of equipment.

Turns our my mid-sized mining setup (11 cards) is causing interference with a cell phone tower that's 800ft away. So much so that they've spent quite a while tracking down the source.

They checked each rig separately (all mostly running R9 280x's from a variety of manufacturers) and found that each one was emitting the same amount of interference, ruling out any potential individual component that was causing the problem. They asked me to turn them all off until I can find a way to shield them from causing interference. They offered to come back and test again after I move things around and find a way to block the interference. I'm hoping that a makeshift faraday cage with some chicken wire will do the trick.

If you're located near a cell tower and currently mining or plan to, be warned: You might get paid a visit by your local cell phone carrier and have to turn it all off  

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[NameTaken]

What can they do if you refuse to do so?

[gdeglin]

What can they do if you refuse to do so?

They hinted that it may be against the law and that there could be penalties if I turned them back on. I didn't argue with them too much about it. But I'm interested in hearing if the community here has any thoughts on it.

[Sukarti]

Tell them you'll gladly turn them off if they compensate you monthly for your mining profitability + a percentage.

Otherwise tell them to piss off and get off your property!


It may be a crime to "maliciously" interfere with the tower but you could easily circumvent that.

[crazyates]

Isn't the whole point of a FCC approval to make sure that communications equipment doesn't cause interference in neighboring systems, and to be as resilient as possible to nearby residual interference? If that's the case, then I'd say that they did a lousy job with whatever equipment is in that Verizon tower: Probably a CMDA or LTE antenna?

And 800ft seems kinda far. I mean BT and Wifi only have a range of a few hundred feet, and when you're talking almost 1,000 ft, that seems kinda far.

What kind of laws are you breaking by running NON-COMMUNICATIONS equipment that happens to be nearby to a cell tower? I mean my Gigabyte 280x all have a FCC approved label on them, and I'd assume all GPUs would. I don't see how they could fine you for running FCC approved, non-communications computer hardware in your own home. I'm no lawyer, but I'd keep running them regardless of what some technician tells me, and if they really do have a law or regulation somewhere that tells me I can't, then I'd consider stopping.

So in the end, I say it's bullshit, but what does my opinion matter? If you really want to keep them up, I'd say you gotta ask a few questions:
1) What kind of cell tower is nearby? What frequencies?
2) What kind of interference is being emitted? What specific frequencies?
3) What laws or regulations are there that say you can't run your hardware?
4) Are these laws or regulations enforced? What fines/consequences are there?

That's just to start. I'm sure I'll have more questions once you get those 4 answered.

[kalus]

Isn't the whole point of a FCC approval to make sure that communications equipment doesn't cause interference in neighboring systems, and to be as resilient as possible to nearby residual interference? If that's the case, then I'd say that they did a lousy job with whatever equipment is in that Verizon tower: Probably a CMDA or LTE antenna?

if you're in the states, computers fall under 47 US code part 15 subpart b:  "unintentional radiators" (lawl)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/part-15/subpart-B

this is why electronics are certified with a faraday cage (i.e. metal case) to contain the electronics which may cause interference.  

if the videocard is freeballin' outside a case, it probably does cause all sorts of short-range radio noise because no mfg. i know spends money to shield each individual component.  

[mneehon]

Just read an article today on Wall Street Journal about FCC folks visiting people and asking them to turn off fluorescent lights, electrified fence and other equipment.  Even certified equipment can produce interference, and it is against federal law to squatter on frequency ranges.  So you can tell Verizon techs to piss off, but when FCC comes-a-knocking, you better comply or risk federally enforced fine and as far as I remember even imprisonment.

BTW, article says once FCC forced some dude to turn off some simple piece of electronics (like alarm clock) because his neighbor amateur radio operator complained.

"FCC Agents Trace Radio Interference to Doorbells, Videogames, Blankets"
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304434104579378994224188328?KEYWORDS=fcc&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304434104579378994224188328.html%3FKEYWORDS%3Dfcc

[alani123]

How is this even possible?

[gweedo]

A couple Verizon techs knocked on my door today with a bunch of equipment.

Turns our my mid-sized mining setup (11 cards) is causing interference with a cell phone tower that's 800ft away. So much so that they've spent quite a while tracking down the source.

They checked each rig separately (all mostly running R9 280x's from a variety of manufacturers) and found that each one was emitting the same amount of interference, ruling out any potential individual component that was causing the problem. They asked me to turn them all off until I can find a way to shield them from causing interference. They offered to come back and test again after I move things around and find a way to block the interference. I'm hoping that a makeshift faraday cage with some chicken wire will do the trick.

If you're located near a cell tower and currently mining or plan to, be warned: You might get paid a visit by your local cell phone carrier and have to turn it all off  

I would tell them to send the law. I doubt the FCC is going to take on one dude in one neighbor for one cell tower. Also I would tell them that it is compute equipment that you are not doing anything illegal with.

[BitcoinQTlol]

lol, spooky how they tracked u down

[gdeglin]

Isn't the whole point of a FCC approval to make sure that communications equipment doesn't cause interference in neighboring systems, and to be as resilient as possible to nearby residual interference? If that's the case, then I'd say that they did a lousy job with whatever equipment is in that Verizon tower: Probably a CMDA or LTE antenna?

And 800ft seems kinda far. I mean BT and Wifi only have a range of a few hundred feet, and when you're talking almost 1,000 ft, that seems kinda far.

What kind of laws are you breaking by running NON-COMMUNICATIONS equipment that happens to be nearby to a cell tower? I mean my Gigabyte 280x all have a FCC approved label on them, and I'd assume all GPUs would. I don't see how they could fine you for running FCC approved, non-communications computer hardware in your own home. I'm no lawyer, but I'd keep running them regardless of what some technician tells me, and if they really do have a law or regulation somewhere that tells me I can't, then I'd consider stopping.

So in the end, I say it's bullshit, but what does my opinion matter? If you really want to keep them up, I'd say you gotta ask a few questions:
1) What kind of cell tower is nearby? What frequencies?
2) What kind of interference is being emitted? What specific frequencies?
3) What laws or regulations are there that say you can't run your hardware?
4) Are these laws or regulations enforced? What fines/consequences are there?

That's just to start. I'm sure I'll have more questions once you get those 4 answered.

800ft does seem relatively far for me too, but one of the four antennas on the tower is pointed directly at us with line of sight so that may be a factor.

I don't know much about FCC approval. My theory is that the cards weren't intended to be used in this way, and maybe they would have failed FCC tests if they were. Just speculation on my part though. They suggested that I contact the manufacturer and complain, but I doubt that would get me anywhere.

As for leaving the rigs running, it's not worth the few $ a day to risk the FCC knocking at my door next. The technicians seemed relieved that they finally found the source of what seems to have been a big issue for them, so I didn't want to be a jerk and refuse to turn it off.

They said the interference was around the 835mhz range. Wikipedia indicates that Verizon and ATT run their voice service at 850mhz, so I guess that's pretty close.

[kalus]

And 800ft seems kinda far. I mean BT and Wifi only have a range of a few hundred feet, and when you're talking almost 1,000 ft, that seems kinda far.

800' seems far for BT and WiFi IFF it is operating within FCC limits    if you install open firmware on your router you can boost the signal strength to the limit of your hardware. 

They said the interference was around the 835mhz range. Wikipedia indicates that Verizon and ATT run their voice service at 850mhz, so I guess that's pretty close.

did they mention what their measured signal strength from your interference was from the antenna?

this may look ridiculous, but you can get 100db of noise reduction by literally wallpapering your mining room with kitchen tinfoil.  

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/build-your-own-faraday-cage-heres-how/

make sure you save some for hatmaking.

[Korporal]

For starters, why the hell did you admit anything to strangers knocking on your door?
Unless they have:
A) A gun with a corresponding badge with arresting authority
B) A Search Warrant
Tell them to piss off.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, turn your rigs back on. If they come back tell them they are still off since the last time they visited. If they question you, tell them to kindly leave your property. If they insist on staying or want to gain access, call the police immediately.

By the time the FCC convinces a Federal Judge to obtain a search warrant (a long time), the scrypt diff will be so high you probably switched to ASICS by then, lol. 

You do have rights you know.

[msc]

if the videocard is freeballin' outside a case, it probably does cause all sorts of short-range radio noise

Yeah, that would be my thought.  Running without a case probably voids the FCC compliance.  There may or may not actually be a law, but the "F" in FCC means that won't stop them.

[Korporal]

if the videocard is freeballin' outside a case, it probably does cause all sorts of short-range radio noise

Yeah, that would be my thought.  Running without a case probably voids the FCC compliance.  There may or may not actually be a law, but the "F" in FCC means that won't stop them.

There is no law on what sort of case you need to use. You don't legally need a case. The cards are tested alone for interference.
I have miners in 1/2 case, no case and even a lexan full case! Am I not allowed to use lexan?  

I've seen Dell cases that could probably withstand a friggin EMP pulse and I've seen cases made out of wood. All "legal".

[kalus]

if the videocard is freeballin' outside a case, it probably does cause all sorts of short-range radio noise

Yeah, that would be my thought.  Running without a case probably voids the FCC compliance.  There may or may not actually be a law, but the "F" in FCC means that won't stop them.

There is no law on what sort of case you need to use. You don't legally need a case. The cards are tested alone for interference.
I have miners in 1/2 case, no case and even a lexan full case! Am I not allowed to use lexan?

the FCC doesn't give a shit what your case is made of, or if you have no case.  they only care if you are generating interference.

No federal law prohibits lexan cases, if its components do generate interference, the case must contain a faraday cage/EMI shielding to control interference if your hardware happens to emit radiointerference on the frequencies they care about.  

e.g.

if you are selling computers, you technically need to comply with FCC guidelines.  that's why prebuilt computers, radios, printers, monitors, and even mobile phones have FCC certification logos on them.   there are different regulations covering assembled computers for sale. 

I've seen Dell cases that could probably withstand a friggin EMP pulse and I've seen cases made out of wood. All "legal".

a wooden case can be made with EMI shielding on the inside; it's extremely simple to be compliant as mentioned above, some times it can be a sheet or two of metallic foil.  an anti-static bag is also a faraday cage.  

it's not that hard to meet FCC regulations.  frequently it's the knockoff crap (e.g. imitation or imported phone chargers, counterfeit light ballasts, grey market goods) that have fake logos or certifications that are causing the problem.

it's not only in US either: butterflylabs had asics siezed by germany for faking european CE certifications

http://buttcoin.org/butterfly-labs-caught-allegedly-faking-ce-certification-bitcoiner-gets-his-miner-seized-in-germany

[kalus]

For starters, why the hell did you admit anything to strangers knocking on your door?
Unless they have:
A) A gun with a corresponding badge with arresting authority
B) A Search Warrant
Tell them to piss off.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, turn your rigs back on. If they come back tell them they are still off since the last time they visited. If they question you, tell them to kindly leave your property. If they insist on staying or want to gain access, call the police immediately.

By the time the FCC convinces a Federal Judge to obtain a search warrant (a long time), the scrypt diff will be so high you probably switched to ASICS by then, lol.  

You do have rights you know.

this is correct.  (i'm not a lawyer)

verizon technicians don't have any authority over you and you can tell them to go away.

however, OP will probably get a letter from verizon.  then verizon will make a report to the FCC.  then the FCC will write OP another letter, and may come visit OP.

this is what you should do if the FCC visits:  these are your rights.

http://www.roguecom.com/rogueradio/fccknocks.html

OTOH, If the op gets rid of the interference himself, there is no complaint and all of this hassle goes away.  verizon is not asking anything unreasonable; they don't give a shit about your mining operation if it doesn't affect their phone operation.  

it's far simpler to do some research, and shield your mining operation with a faraday cage than to have a showdown in federal court.  

[slightboyme]

Are we talking about potential health issues with mining rigs?

[maardein]

There actually was someone in the Netherlands that had about the same happen to him. It was a thread in the Dutch subforum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=488572.0

[ThePeePs]

Two things:

1) If your rigs are emitting enough RF "noise", then it wouldn't be that hard for VZ techs to find the source.

2) 835 MHz != 850 MHz.  I know the numbers look like they are "close" but not when it comes to RF.  Look at how many channels we have for Wifi. The non-overlapping ones are 25 MHz apart (same as 835 to 850).  You can have two wifi networks running right next to each other, one on channel 1 and one channel 6, and have them work perfectly.

I too call BS.