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Author Topic: [2019-04-22]American bitcoin trader may face death penalty over 'sea home'  (Read 593 times)
vit05
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April 23, 2019, 01:29:52 PM
Merited by Vladdirescu87 (1)
 #1

qz.com
American bitcoin trader and his girlfriend may face death penalty over Thailand 'sea home'



Elwar here in bitcointalk
his girlfriend Instagram
his facebook


A pirate’s life ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be: A bitcoin couple is sought by Thai authorities after trying to make a lawless, tax-free home on the sea outside Phuket island. If convicted, the duo face a potential death penalty for violating Thailand’s sovereignty.

SEASTEADING/YOUTUBE
Waterfront views
But Chad Elwartowski, a US citizen, and his Thai girlfriend, Supranee “Nadia Summergirl” Thepdet, had already fled the offshore cabin by the time Thai navy personnel arrived at it today (April 20).

“I was free for a moment. Probably the freest person in the world,” Elwartowski posted later on Facebook.

The duo said the cabin, built by an outfit called Ocean Builders, was floating in international waters and therefore without jurisdiction.


Thailand, however, said the structure threatened its sovereignty and plans to tow it to shore. It also revoked Elwartowski’s visa.

The cabin was situated within Thailand’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ), but not its territorial sea. (Here’s the location on Google Maps.) Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (pdf), to which Thailand is a party, an EEZ extends 200 nautical miles from a nation’s coastline. Within it, a state has exclusive rights to natural resources such as fish and oil but does not have full sovereignty. It does have the latter within its territorial waters, which extend out 12 nautical miles from the shore.






First seastead is now in international waters. Only currencies accepted..฿ & BTC

The “freest person in the world” faces a possible death penalty in Thailand

A pirate’s life ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be: A bitcoin couple is sought by Thai authorities after trying to make a lawless, tax-free home on the sea outside Phuket island. If convicted, the duo face a potential death penalty for violating Thailand’s sovereignty.

SEASTEADING/YOUTUBE
Waterfront views
But Chad Elwartowski, a US citizen, and his Thai girlfriend, Supranee “Nadia Summergirl” Thepdet, had already fled the offshore cabin by the time Thai navy personnel arrived at it today (April 20).

“I was free for a moment. Probably the freest person in the world,” Elwartowski posted later on Facebook.

The duo said the cabin, built by an outfit called Ocean Builders, was floating in international waters and therefore without jurisdiction.


Thailand, however, said the structure threatened its sovereignty and plans to tow it to shore. It also revoked Elwartowski’s visa.

The cabin was situated within Thailand’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ), but not its territorial sea. (Here’s the location on Google Maps.) Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (pdf), to which Thailand is a party, an EEZ extends 200 nautical miles from a nation’s coastline. Within it, a state has exclusive rights to natural resources such as fish and oil but does not have full sovereignty. It does have the latter within its territorial waters, which extend out 12 nautical miles from the shore.




First seastead is now in international waters. Only currencies accepted..฿ & BTC
   
Couple Uses Bitcoin Wealth to Build World’s First Seastead



The Thai government was extremely authoritarian. Unfortunately, the first seastead did not work very well. But I hope this legal issue is resolved and he can continue with his dream.

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April 23, 2019, 02:24:44 PM
 #2

Not that I am dismissing threats to their safety but we have a lot of death penalties for a lot of things, rarely carried out. Always take a stance not to provoke when in hot water. The govt has also said it will drop the charge (for which carries death penalty) and pursue far less severe charges.

This is news that's a week old, although yesterday it was confirmed in Thai reports that the Navy has, in fact, destroyed Elwar's seastead. He was last online here a day before his last FB post, which suggests he really is trying to stay away.

I'm sure this will become much bigger news if/when some law firm picks up on it. A bit of a shame though. The way it sounded, it was like he'd done all his due diligence before going ahead. And seemingly, they were 20 others planned for construction. Probably what ticked the authorities off. I'm almost sure if everyone had been brought on board first, this wouldn't have happened.

Of course, still sad news for a Bitcoin early adopter. But all reports seem to indicate he's safe and will try return to US.

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April 23, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
Merited by mindrust (2)
 #3

Doesn't look good
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/security/1665816/hunted-seastead-couple-traced-to-tarutao-island

Quote
The US-Thai couple who built and anchored a seastead floating home off Phuket were last traced to Tarutao island, and the full weight of the law awaits them, authorities said on Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Wisarn Phanmanee, the provincial police chief, said American Chad Elwartowski, 46, and Supranee Thepdet's last known location was the southern border island of Tarutao. They were believed to be still within Thai territory, although they had shut down their mobile phones.

I've said it once that you shouldn't trust authorities in those countries, they want to picture theirs like welcoming home for everyone but once you do something they don't like the punishments are at least exaggerated if not crazy.

 

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April 23, 2019, 04:18:42 PM
 #4

That's genuinely saddening.  It seems the governments of this world aren't willing to let people prove that not everyone needs them.  It doesn't serve their interests to allow people to live independently from the state, otherwise more might follow, which is why they'll fight it at every opportunity.

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April 23, 2019, 04:30:27 PM
 #5

They are not going to let that one go.

This is usually same with these poor countries which rely on only tourism as a source of income. They are friendly and welcoming to the foreigners just because you spend your money there. Do not ever think you can mess with the Authorities just because you are rich and the locals like you. Elwar thought that the Thais are friendly to the foreigners and they won't mess with him but guess what, somebody carried out the word to the up highs.

"Some American guy is building a country here! He is a threat to our sovereignty!"

Bam! They can even accuse Elwar for being a spy now. These stuff ain't a joke.

Hopefully he already escaped from that place.





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April 23, 2019, 06:26:02 PM
 #6

geez, that didn't last very long. Undecided

i thought he was in legit international waters......it didn't even occur to me this might happen. my prayers go out to them, sounds like a really fucked up situation. hits close to home, elwar is a good dude, been seeing him for years on the spec forum.

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April 23, 2019, 08:10:40 PM
 #7

Sad to see their current situation and hope Elwar do manage to settle it up.  Thai government might need some splash from Early Bitcoin adopter. lol

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April 23, 2019, 10:00:27 PM
 #8

I'm reading elsewhere that Elwar claims the seastead is 14 nautical miles offshore and therefore in international waters. Some sources are saying Thai authorities are claiming it is only 12 nautical miles offshore and therefore under their jurisdiction, whereas others are saying they accept it is outwith the 12 mile zone, but anything within the 200 miles economic zone is fair game. Regardless of the legalities of it, this is a real shame and a massive overreaction by Thailand.

Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.

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April 23, 2019, 10:36:46 PM
 #9

I'm reading elsewhere that Elwar claims the seastead is 14 nautical miles offshore and therefore in international waters. Some sources are saying Thai authorities are claiming it is only 12 nautical miles offshore and therefore under their jurisdiction, whereas others are saying they accept it is outwith the 12 mile zone, but anything within the 200 miles economic zone is fair game. Regardless of the legalities of it, this is a real shame and a massive overreaction by Thailand.

Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.


I hope he gets the support of big international organizations and big firms specializing in such disputes. Having a clearer definition of the legality of this type of enterprise could be revolutionary. But unfortunately, without a country offering support, I find it unlikely that it will be able to get representation in the major international bodies.
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April 24, 2019, 06:32:58 AM
 #10

Why did they chose Thailand with their strict laws and a total dictatorship for this experiment? I would have rather picked a country without the death penalty! <His girlfriends country of origin, might have been the motivating factor behind this... right?>

In any way, most countries will have an issue with tax-free homes in their territorial waters and also non-citizens doing this in their country. This was a huge gamble with their lives or a life long sentence in a Thailand jail.  Tongue

Just imagine what the environmental impact would be if 1000s of people did this in your country.  Roll Eyes  <Where will all the sewerage and grey water go?>

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April 24, 2019, 02:09:55 PM
 #11

Why did they chose Thailand with their strict laws and a total dictatorship for this experiment?
There were probably a number of factors that led them to there. First of all, they have to be close to a somewhere they can buy more supplies - food, toiletries, diesel/gas, etc. They can't just build in the middle of the sea, they've got to be near somewhere where they can easily land a small boat within easy reach of a supermarket. Climate would also have played a big part in selecting a location. They need somewhere with few storms or hurricanes. They need somewhere where the sea is usually relatively calm and waves are generally small. It would also have depended on various local prices of materials and labor to construct these steadings.


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April 24, 2019, 06:55:33 PM
 #12

First of all, they have to be close to a somewhere they can buy more supplies - food, toiletries, diesel/gas, etc. They can't just build in the middle of the sea, they've got to be near somewhere where they can easily land a small boat within easy reach of a supermarket.
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.

I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.

I hope the best for him, but his plan simply doesn't look sustainable.

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April 24, 2019, 08:47:10 PM
 #13

This reads like a joke article. They built a big metal box in the sea and anchored it. It's similar to what ships are doing. They also filled in some paperwork so the government knew they were planning to live there and now they are hunted down like criminals.

If they stole a purse from an old lady the authorities wouldn't care but try to live in peace on a self made floating device and you're an enemy of the state. Undecided

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April 24, 2019, 11:33:25 PM
 #14

That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State".
I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible. Their website states that they used a solar-powered purifier for their water needs, and solar power for the rest of their electricity. It also, however, states that they had a back up diesel generator. The diesel has to come from somewhere, and they are not drilling for it themselves. Their site also made no mention whatsoever of food or farming. If you want to live separate from any country or state then you need to be self-sustainable, and a huge part of that is being able to grow your own food year-round. That's simply not possible in such a small space, meaning they are still depending on a country for the bare necessities, regardless of whether they are living within its borders or not.

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April 25, 2019, 12:12:59 AM
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That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State".
I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible. Their website states that they used a solar-powered purifier for their water needs, and solar power for the rest of their electricity. It also, however, states that they had a back up diesel generator. The diesel has to come from somewhere, and they are not drilling for it themselves. Their site also made no mention whatsoever of food or farming. If you want to live separate from any country or state then you need to be self-sustainable, and a huge part of that is being able to grow your own food year-round. That's simply not possible in such a small space, meaning they are still depending on a country for the bare necessities, regardless of whether they are living within its borders or not.

This has been all over the news of late.I would have to agree also that the idealistic lifestyle is a little floored.... It would be wonderful though to live free from all government jurisdictions but on their small scale certainly not feasible.You really have to admire their courage and ingenuity though. Wouldn't catch me living on that little thing.Hope the government can see some humour in it.
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April 25, 2019, 01:57:03 AM
 #16

We cannot protect our own sovereignty without a military backing it. Be ready to die fighting for it. This is where the Libertarians do not get it.

In any case, agreed with vit05. I hope he resolves this legal issue and goes back home laughing at the crazy experience.

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April 25, 2019, 02:04:39 AM
 #17

I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible.
Yep. Probably it's an experiment they wanted to carry out to try, like a kind of holiday, for at most some months or a few years - hoping that other people could join them. However, I think there are better places to do that than military dictatorships.

And I believe even if they succeed[ed] (maybe they try it again, I don't think they really will get killed for that, even in Thailand!) that the subsequent steps, providing a "libertarian ecosystem" for essential services, is much more difficult than the first step they've started (building this "seasted house"). For example, take this Liberarian community in Chile with the name taken out of this famous Ayn Rand novel (I don't remember the exact name, something related to "John Galt" - Edit: found it, it was "Galt's Gulch"), where at the end they got into legal conflicts between themselves (not only with the State).

I however disagree with bbc.reporter - I think a Libertarian/Anarchist settlement (like a seastead) may be possible, but there is much work that has to be done for that.

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April 25, 2019, 08:24:24 AM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 05:05:03 PM by Carlton Banks
Merited by figmentofmyass (3)
 #18

That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.

I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.

the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. if the Thai government hadn't acted this way, there was a possibility of taking further steps. Your criticism seems to be that Elwar didn't execute every possible detail from the beginning, that's unrealistic for many reasons. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it


Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done

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April 25, 2019, 09:23:43 AM
 #19

That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.

I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.

the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. if the Thai government hadn't acted this way, there was apossibility of taking further steps. Your criticism seems to be that Elwar didn't execute every possible detail from the beginning, that's unrealistic for many reasons. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it


Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done

Nobody should dispute the fact that a lot of planning went into the actual project and to build the actual structure. I think "Oceanbuilders" also had a huge contribution in this.  Huh

I just think the location should have been given more consideration. Yes, any location will do, IF it is not within the territory of any nation, but it seems as though Thailand is disputing the location of his "house" and they are saying it is within their economic zone <EEZ>.   Roll Eyes

Also, doing this close to Thailand with their "dictatorship" government, might have been a poor choice. Kudos for them for trying this, because most people would not even challenge any government in this way.  Wink

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April 25, 2019, 02:32:50 PM
 #20

I just think the location should have been given more consideration.
From their website, it seems a lot of thought was put in to the location they chose, for many of the reasons I outlined in my post above. Ocean Builders have recently made a blog post which states that they are keen to stay within the Andaman Sea due to its calm waters and lack of storms and hurricanes. They also state they have received offers from other countries who would be keen for them to set up near their coasts.

It very much looks like they are keen to push on despite this setback, so kudos to them. It also looks like they may not have to move very far from their current location to find a new and more welcoming home.

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