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Author Topic: Input needed on Crypto Collectable banknotes, coins, wallets with an NFC chip  (Read 230 times)
krogothmanhattan
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April 27, 2019, 12:59:48 PM
Last edit: April 27, 2019, 02:32:35 PM by krogothmanhattan
Merited by DaveF (3)
 #1

  Need the input from all you wonderful crypto collectable community crowd on what are your thoughts and experiences with NFC chips on Crypto Notes and or coins with NFC chips.

  Are they safe? In other words, can the chip be programmed to sweep BTC?

  Are the chips able to be formatted and have new program installed for new wallet software or Bitcoin addys? In other words be reset and wipe clean any malware?

  All inputs are welcome as I am seeing notes with the chips installed and wonder if this is the new way instead of using the Hologram with the priv key underneath.

   Its a matter of time before a coinmaker comes out with a chip instead of paper wallets...unless someone already has.

  Pros and Cons of this technology? Thankyou


  Edit:  Here is a company offering just that in a card. https://nfcwalletcard.com/cold-storage-wallet-for-cryptocurrencies

  Suppose I were to be a coin creator and want to use an nfc instead of a paper wallet...

  Create a large enough space in the back of coin and place an NFC chip inside...cover with Holo...and VOILA!  Shocked

  Can it be done? Thoughts??  

  Another great article on its use https://www.nfcworld.com/2018/04/16/356863/bitcoin-owners-turn-to-nfc-implants-to-keep-their-cryptocurrency-safe/

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April 27, 2019, 01:00:19 PM
 #2

Reserved...just in case Wink

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April 27, 2019, 02:08:20 PM
Last edit: April 27, 2019, 02:19:11 PM by yogg
Merited by Flying Hellfish (7), krogothmanhattan (5), DaveF (3), Kryptowerk (2)
 #3

This is a very interesting topic and a very vast subject.

These NFC wallets are quite different. I am not sure how they run. There might be several types :
- Some that come with privkeys already in them.
- Some that are blank of data, with a mechanism to generate a privkey.

There is always a possibility for hardware backdoors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_backdoor)

First thing : The possibility is limited since NFC stands for Near Field Communication, which doesn't allow for use on a wide area. So a massive sweep attack wouldn't work.
Unless the private keys are recorded or generated upon a set of data (seed) belonging to the maker, no massive sweep is possible. (and unless the 5G and 6G networks don't use the same frequencies as the ones used in NFC)

Second : Unless each and every part of what makes the chip (electronic circuitry, micro-controller code, components wiring, etc ...) are open-source, published, and reviewed by peers, why not.
I'd be very weary with any proprietary wallet solution anyway.

Third thing : What is stored on the chip ? Is it the private key in plain text ? If not, then there should be a mechanism to sign transactions with privkey and only transfer the transaction raw hex code to whatever appliance that is communicating with the chip.
And if it is the private key in plain text, it is very vulnerable to exploit. You just need a NFC reader to extract the privkey. (most smartphones are capable of it)

People can charge your card with contactless quite easily. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EONQdQOzphI)
If the privkey is in plain text on the NFC chip, what prevents someone to make a copy of it ?

I believe there might be an NFC bitcoin wallet someday. There are already Bluetooth ones.

In the end, it is a complicated topic, much more than simply printing the private key. So many solutions are possible, but it should be shaped as an international, standardized, brand new protocol.
When ISO for BTC wallets ? Tongue

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April 27, 2019, 02:23:42 PM
 #4

This is a very interesting topic and a very vast subject.

These NFC wallets are quite different. I am not sure how they run. There might be several types :
- Some that come with privkeys already in them.
- Some that are blank of data, with a mechanism to generate a privkey.

There is always a possibility for hardware backdoors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_backdoor)

First thing : The possibility is limited since NFC stands for Near Field Communication, which doesn't allow for use on a wide area. So a massive sweep attack wouldn't work.
Unless the private keys are recorded or generated upon a set of data (seed) belonging to the maker, no massive sweep is possible. (and unless the 5G and 6G networks don't use the same frequencies as the ones used in NFC)

Second : Unless each and every part of what makes the chip (electronic circuitry, micro-controller code, components wiring, etc ...) are open-source, published, and reviewed by peers, why not.
I'd be very weary with any proprietary wallet solution anyway.

Third thing : What is stored on the chip ? Is it the private key in plain text ? If not, then there should be a mechanism to sign transactions with privkey and only transfer the transaction raw hex code to whatever appliance that is communicating with the chip.
And if it is the private key in plain text, it is very vulnerable to exploit. You just need a NFC reader to extract the privkey. (most smartphones are capable of it)

People can charge your card with contactless quite easily. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EONQdQOzphI)
If the privkey is in plain text on the NFC chip, what prevents someone to make a copy of it ?

I believe there might be an NFC bitcoin wallet someday. There are already Bluetooth ones.

In the end, it is a complicated topic, much more than simply printing the private key. So many solutions are possible, but it should be shaped as an international, standardized, brand new protocol.
When ISO for BTC wallets ? Tongue


   Thankyou Yogg....that is all very informative indeed!  I would be interested in Some that are blank of data, with a mechanism to generate a privkey.

   If they are sodl like that then all a purchaser has to do is generate his/her keys and never worry about trusting the maker.

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April 27, 2019, 08:21:09 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #5

First thing : The possibility is limited since NFC stands for Near Field Communication, which doesn't allow for use on a wide area. So a massive sweep attack wouldn't work.
Unless the private keys are recorded or generated upon a set of data (seed) belonging to the maker, no massive sweep is possible. (and unless the 5G and 6G networks don't use the same frequencies as the ones used in NFC)

True, but then you do have to worry about who is nearby.
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/evil-maid-attack

Goes back to the discussion earlier in the week we were having about physical coins. BTC rises above $20k USD.
Can you trust people who have access to your home / office not to make their own security holograms so they can peel and replace the 2 Lealana coins you have on display?


Second : Unless each and every part of what makes the chip (electronic circuitry, micro-controller code, components wiring, etc ...) are open-source, published, and reviewed by peers, why not.
I'd be very weary with any proprietary wallet solution anyway.

Unless you are digging it apart and looking at the device under a microscope, all you know is the data it gives. With all hardware devices you are trusting the manufacturer that what they say they put in they really put in. You dont't know if they put in chip "X" instead of chip "Y" but "X" was programmed to say it was "Y"

Third thing : What is stored on the chip ? Is it the private key in plain text ? If not, then there should be a mechanism to sign transactions with privkey and only transfer the transaction raw hex code to whatever appliance that is communicating with the chip.
And if it is the private key in plain text, it is very vulnerable to exploit. You just need a NFC reader to extract the privkey. (most smartphones are capable of it)


I would put on an encrypted private key with a secure password.
Just about anything else you are looking to loose BTC
-Dave




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April 28, 2019, 03:18:33 AM
 #6

If not, then there should be a mechanism to sign transactions with privkey and only transfer the transaction raw hex code to whatever appliance that is communicating with the chip.

Does this exist/is this accessible for cheap? Because I can think of a few applications for this that extend beyond wallets.
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April 29, 2019, 06:17:28 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #7

With my experience so far on NFC chips, when using them to store wallets, it's best to use the NFC stickers over the chips. This was due to the stickers have metal rings that are used to generate the electromagnetic waves to communicate with the device in question, which dictates the distance from the chip to the device. These rings however can be temporarily shorted out by placing metal across them which will prevent the sticker from being able to communicate with a device. So with this method a thin metallic material would need to be placed over the sticker and a hologram placed on top.

These stickers can be programmed for passwords required upon scanning to access the information. However my experience was that encrypted private keys were far more secure.

I hope this helps.
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April 29, 2019, 06:31:21 PM
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I'm just coming in to verify that the account above is valid (its Adam from Polymerbit)  Grin

Visit us at www.polymerbit.com

The 10 Mbtc Zug note is coming!
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April 29, 2019, 06:54:45 PM
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I'm just coming in to verify that the account above is valid (its Adam from Polymerbit)  Grin

Good to know thankyou.

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April 29, 2019, 06:58:02 PM
 #10

I'm just coming in to verify that the account above is valid (its Adam from Polymerbit)  Grin
Thought it might be - welcome mate. Keep up the good work  Smiley
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