Ledger Nano S usability questions

[very_452001]

Windows 7 is still a widely used operating system.

Can any windows 7 users here confirm they had no problem updating old firmware 1.3.1 using ledger live?

[TryNinja]

Windows 7 is still a widely used operating system.

Yes. But their support is almost over. Is there is any reason why you want to keep using Windows 7?

Can any windows 7 users here confirm they had no problem updating old firmware 1.3.1 using ledger live?

Everywhere people (and Ledger's devs) keep saying that Windows 7 isn't supported and doesn't work as intended (or work at all).

I don't have any device with Windows 7, so I can't confirm. But I've found this:

Ledger live dosen't support Windows7 anymore the only solution if you want to stick with your W7 is : Start windows in safe mode with network functions and then run the update in ledger live. This helped me.

Maybe you could try.

[Lucius]

Windows 7 is still a widely used operating system.
Can any windows 7 users here confirm they had no problem updating old firmware 1.3.1 using ledger live?

Windows 7 is still used by by some 33% of users, and this is not small number. It is still a fully operational and secure operating system, but Ledger has decided not to adjust its products anymore to work with this OS. On the other side Trezor is supporting W7, and they will probably continue to do that until Microsoft provides official support (January 2020).

I can confirm that my attempt of updating firmware from 1.4.2 to 1.5.5 on Windows 7 did not succeed, it just stuck at some point so I finish process in Windows 10 in less then 1 minute.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yeah, I have an old laptop which still runs Windows 7. I've tried Ledger Live on it a few times, and each time I run in to a variety of errors; crashing, won't opening, freezing, blank screen, etc. My favorite error was when it (for reasons unknown) completely failed at calculating fees and suggested I needed to pay something like 20 BTC for a 1-input-2-outputs transaction.

Your options are either to stop using Windows 7 (recommended for a variety of reasons), or to not use Ledger Live. Personally, I prefer using Electrum since it has both native SegWit support and allows proper UTXO management, neither of which Ledger Live does.

[bob123]

It is still a fully operational and secure very unsecure operating system

I fixed that for you.

Honestly, windows 7 is far away from being a secure OS.
If you compare it to windows 10, it is basically an open barn door screaming 'i am vulnerable'.

Windows 10 has a superior concept with less flaws and more security tools / features (e.g. EMET). Almost every windows 7 computer which is connected to the internet can be compromised with a quite low amount of effort.

[Lucius]

I fixed that for you.
Honestly, windows 7 is far away from being a secure OS.
If you compare it to windows 10, it is basically an open barn door screaming 'i am vulnerable'.

There is no need to correct something, this is your opinion and I have my own. Windows 10 is only better in terms of collecting more information from users, actually in legal spying. Windows 7 still has support from Microsoft, and I do not see any problem to use it for now. I also do not feel even a little vulnerable, all my software is up to date and so far no hacker is knocking on my "barn door".

Only thing that is not working is Ledger Live, but there is a solution for every problem.

[bob123]

There is no need to correct something, this is your opinion and I have my own.

Unfortunately this is not a matter of opinion.

Windows 7 is missing quite a few security features, which are present in windows 10.

While it might be true that windows 10 has some 'features' which collect data for 'enhancing user experience', all of them can be turned off.
Turning off the data collection in windows 10 is way easier than getting win7 to be as secure as win10 is.

[o_e_l_e_o]

While it might be true that windows 10 has some 'features' which collect data for 'enhancing user experience', all of them can be turned off.

You are right about Windows 7 being outdated and unsecure, and you are right about Windows 10 being better in this regard. But even turning off all tracking features in Windows 10 does little to prevent it collecting your data.

There's plenty of evidence out there that Windows 10 is calling home constantly, even if you turn off Cortana and even if you tweak all the security settings. That's not to say Windows 7 isn't doing similar things, but the problem is much worse in Windows 10. Of course, that's not an argument for sticking with Windows 7 however.

Long story short: Stop using Windows.

[bob123]

[...] and even if you tweak all the security settings. [...]

[...] disabled every single tracking and telemetry features in the operating system [...] Eight hours later, he found that the idle Windows 10 box had tried over 5,500 connections to 93 different IP addresses, out of which almost 4,000 were made to 51 different IP addresses belonging to Microsoft.

That's insane. Microsoft is slowly on their way being a bigger data kraken than google.. And to achieve that, you really have work for it..

Long story short: Stop using Windows.

+1 for this.
The only reliable way.

[very_452001]

Ok I was thinking of taking the ledger nano s to a friend computer with windows 10 however I don't know how secure is computer is so my only option on my friends windows 10 computer is safe mode with networking?

Also can anyone confirm windows 7 safe mode with networking allowed the firmware update?

[TryNinja]

Ok I was thinking of taking the ledger nano s to a friend computer with windows 10 however I don't know how secure is computer is so my only option on my friends windows 10 computer is safe mode with networking?

It doesn’t matter if his PC is secure. That’s the beauty of a hardware wallel.

Also can anyone confirm windows 7 safe mode with networking allowed the firmware update?

Why don’t you try?

[bob123]

Ok I was thinking of taking the ledger nano s to a friend computer with windows 10 however I don't know how secure is computer is so my only option on my friends windows 10 computer is safe mode with networking?

It doesn’t matter if his PC is secure. That’s the beauty of a hardware wallel.

This applies to using the wallet, not to updating the wallet.

If the firmware updates aren't signed (which i think they aren't, because people already have been able to flash their own firmware onto the nano s), his friend could (if he wanted to be malicious) have a malicious version of ledger live installed on his computer and a malicious firmware update prepared.
OP would then 'update' his nano s with a malicious firmware.

Of course, the next time OP would access the nano s with a non-malicious version of ledger live, he would get a message stating that the firmware is not genuine.
But at the computer of his friend, all would look normal.


I know, that's quite a stretch. And one shouldn't have such friends. But updating a hardware wallet is not always secure. You need a clean / trustworthy computer to do so.


Edit:
It seems, the nano s does indeed check whether the firmware (to be installed) is signed by ledger.
Somehow weird, i thought people were able to flash own firmware onto the nano s...

Oh well.. hence, my theoretical attack is not possible. And currently i can't think of why updating the nano s on an compromised computer could pose a risk.

[Pmalek]

Ok I was thinking of taking the ledger nano s to a friend computer with windows 10 however I don't know how secure is computer is so my only option on my friends windows 10 computer is safe mode with networking?

Nobody can steal the funds from your hardware wallet unless they know your PIN or seed. Even if the PC you are using is infected with malware a hacker would need physical access to your device and would need to push the buttons on it to be able to get to your coins. Your seed is not saved on the device and your private keys never leave the device so you are safe.

The only thing you should worry about is if the address you create on your Ledger is the same as the one that you copy/paste when sending a transaction but that is why it is important to verify it on the Ledger screen. But that is not what you are doing now since you are looking to update your firmware first. 

[very_452001]

Ok I was thinking of taking the ledger nano s to a friend computer with windows 10 however I don't know how secure is computer is so my only option on my friends windows 10 computer is safe mode with networking?

Nobody can steal the funds from your hardware wallet unless they know your PIN or seed. Even if the PC you are using is infected with malware a hacker would need physical access to your device and would need to push the buttons on it to be able to get to your coins. Your seed is not saved on the device and your private keys never leave the device so you are safe.

The only thing you should worry about is if the address you create on your Ledger is the same as the one that you copy/paste when sending a transaction but that is why it is important to verify it on the Ledger screen. But that is not what you are doing now since you are looking to update your firmware first. 

Ok then how is it possible for hackers or law enforcement to gain access to your coins on the nano s if that is the case? I did hear stories hackers getting access to coins on ledger nano s hardware and regular upcoming firmware updates means old version is not secure and can be hacked.

[BitMaxz]

Ok then how is it possible for hackers or law enforcement to gain access to your coins on the nano s if that is the case? I did hear stories hackers getting access to coins on ledger nano s hardware and regular upcoming firmware updates means old version is not secure and can be hacked.

Where did you hear about the hackers who can access coins on ledger nano s? Never heard them except for Trezor wallet.
Regular update on their firmware doesn't mean that they are changing ledger nano S security the fact is they are always adding more features and
coins and they improve security but not always it depends if they found some security hole and fix the issue with a new firmware.

Ledger.com is always releasing a new firmware note or post publicly if there is a new feature added or changes like this one https://www.ledger.com/2019/01/16/ledger-releases-a-new-nano-s-firmware-update/
So you will know if the reason for releasing new firmware is because of security or not.

[Pmalek]

Ok then how is it possible for hackers or law enforcement to gain access to your coins on the nano s if that is the case? I did hear stories hackers getting access to coins on ledger nano s hardware and regular upcoming firmware updates means old version is not secure and can be hacked.

I never heard stories about law enforcement "hacking" their way into a Ledger device. If that was possible the devices would be worthless. Maybe law enforcement got court orders and received the necessary access details from the device owners.

The Ledger software gets updated like any other software. Those are both stability and security updates, improvements etc. An update doesn't mean that the previous version is hackable and you will lose your coins unless you update.     

[bob123]

Ok then how is it possible for hackers or law enforcement to gain access to your coins on the nano s if that is the case? I did hear stories hackers getting access to coins on ledger nano s hardware and regular upcoming firmware updates means old version is not secure and can be hacked.

I never heard stories about law enforcement "hacking" their way into a Ledger device. If that was possible the devices would be worthless. Maybe law enforcement got court orders and received the necessary access details from the device owners.

'Hacking' into the nano s is indeed not possible without some high level 0-day exploits.

What i can think of, is that law enforcement agencies had a warrant, and were able to seize all necessary things (e.g. nano s + pin somewhere written o paper or mnemonic code).
I can't imagine them technically hacking into the nano s to gain access to the BTC.

[very_452001]

Ok can anyone confirm windows 7 safe mode with networking will work?

If not will windows 10 safe mode with networking will work?

[bob123]

You already asked that question.

And you received an answer:

Also can anyone confirm windows 7 safe mode with networking allowed the firmware update?

Why don’t you try?

Why did you wait 3 days until now, instead of trying out for 10 minutes ?

[very_452001]

You already asked that question.

And you received an answer:

Also can anyone confirm windows 7 safe mode with networking allowed the firmware update?

Why don’t you try?

Why did you wait 3 days until now, instead of trying out for 10 minutes ?

Just wanted to be safe than sorry. I can try but fear of bricking my nano s if I do it.