Colorado school Shooting! (case sealed)

[TheCoinGrabber]

Wow you're fast, this haven't even showed up in my feed yet. RIP and condolences to the bereaved.

I too share your sentiment on this issue. Quite shocking to find out they can just walk into a Walmart and come out with a gun. There's no easy resolution to this, they see it as their right and it is in their constitution. Seems it's was from their frontier era where there really is a need for defending their home. Read somewhere that they were encouraged back then to have arms "just in case" England try to take back the colonies.

[Flying Hellfish]

@SS, thank you for the honest discussion it's refreshing in here, seems most users round here are frothing at the mouth and I appreciate when the norm is "busted"

The private sales thing was mentioned before, and while I agree that falls under the category of a law that should be sured up, private sales like the link you posted previously are only allowed in some states. In addition, they make up a very small percentage of gun purchases. If a kid or any other wacko had slipped through the cracks and purchased a gun from a gun show, it'd be the poster argument for gun control. Because it hasn't yet happened to my knowledge, its a concern, but not a major one.

I didn't say it was a major problem and I apologize if you feel I implied it was (I think perhaps you inferred my meaning but meh maybe I implied it), I mentioned it sort of tongue in cheek saying the US couldn't even legislate a silly loophole closed so good fucking luck with any kind of sane gun control legislation coming out of the House of Congress anytime soon.

Well first, we'd need to break down two things you said. One, what is a military style weapon, and two, how do you define easily available to anyone? Not being facetious at all here, but are you familiar with the gun buying process in the US?

I'm about 99% sure you and I will never agree on the definition of Military hardware and short of defining the ever living shit out of the term it doesn't serve a ton of value to run down specifics.  While I think you know I am not American I can see the fact that every single mass shooting I read about is done with "legally" obtained hardware. Again I don't want to define easy (it is a subjective term after all) I find it difficult to believe any logical person can argue with the fact that (considering high income developed nations) the US is the easiest country to legally obtain those weapons.  They also have the highest rate of mass shootings, those 2 figures are connected like it or not.

Hell, imagine how much damage you could do with $30 worth of household cleaners mixed together? You probably wouldn't have any problem bringing them into a building in plain sight either. Screw trying to sneak a weapon onto an airplane, how much damage do you think a criminal could do by poisoning a vat of Coke after a quality assurance test?

Ironically all of what you described is much harder than buying an AR and some ammo and strapping up and going to a church, school, work place, concert, bar, mall etc etc, literally ANYONE can do that.  You have to have a few brain cells to make a bomb, most nut jobs think they can walk away like rambo so a suicide bomb is not fucking cool to them!  Poisoning a batch of Coke would be EXTREMELY tough to do UNLESS you already had access to the facility and knew how it worked, you don't need more than a couple of working brain cells to buy, load and fire an AR.

[JSRAW]

In this case, you ignore the fact that India, while it has less REPORTED "gun crime" it also has a murder rate that is 3 times as high (among other problems gun ownership helps with). https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/India/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime

First thing first, It's not about India vs USA. Which I am sure you and me both agree. Having said that I want to correct you here, hope you don't mind, and if you think I am wrong, then please let me know so that I can correct myself.

Posting screenshot of data which you provided, its for other users who don't want to click on the given link.


With due respect, You posted link and didn't even care to look at your source or what does it say and mean?

The 3x murder rate you are quoting is a record of the country which has a population of more than 1.2 billion people. It's not rocket science why India has more (3x) murder rate in comparison to America.

But again, it's just common sense.

Please compare the Gun crime ranking.
USA -1
India-105

With due respect, you criticized my source without actually reading it yourself, what does it say or mean? The stats I linked are already adjusted per-capita, so your argument is null. No this is not about the USA vs India, it is about the costs and benefits of gun ownership and the right to self defense. Everyone loves comparing the rest of the world to the US relating to "gun crimes" but then they cry about how it is not a contest when the stats work the OTHER way.

Comparing the gun crime ranking is like comparing the automotive death rate of the Amish vs the general car driving population. No shit they have less gun crime, because they don't have any access to guns to enjoy their benefits or their faults. Since cars kill so many people we should ban them. Since so many people drown in pools we should ban them too! Some people overeat we should ban food! Do you see how your logic breaks down when extended to its logical conclusions?

Hmmm, okay. I posted a screenshot for a reason but anyway Let's try one more time in simple manner.

Murders rate Per million in India = 34.24

India has more than 1.2 Billion population. Let's say 1.2 billion for now, which means 1200 Million.

Now Let's multiply.

1200 * 34.24 = and you have your answer which is pretty close to murder rate.

For fun you can try this with US's population as well.

Hope this is helpful.  

[Dig Bicks]

I agree with Saltysplatoon about household chemicals,  you can do SO much more damage with simple chemicals bought from the store and its way easier to not get caught.  It doesn't take a genius to figure that shit out either.

[SaltySpitoon]

@SS, thank you for the honest discussion it's refreshing in here, seems most users round here are frothing at the mouth and I appreciate when the norm is "busted"

I didn't say it was a major problem and I apologize if you feel I implied it was (I think perhaps you inferred my meaning but meh maybe I implied it), I mentioned it sort of tongue in cheek saying the US couldn't even legislate a silly loophole closed so good fucking luck with any kind of sane gun control legislation coming out of the House of Congress anytime soon.

-snip-


I'm about 99% sure you and I will never agree on the definition of Military hardware and short of defining the ever living shit out of the term it doesn't serve a ton of value to run down specifics.  While I think you know I am not American I can see the fact that every single mass shooting I read about is done with "legally" obtained hardware. Again I don't want to define easy (it is a subjective term after all) I find it difficult to believe any logical person can argue with the fact that (considering high income developed nations) the US is the easiest country to legally obtain those weapons.  They also have the highest rate of mass shootings, those 2 figures are connected like it or not.

-snip-

Ironically all of what you described is much harder than buying an AR and some ammo and strapping up and going to a church, school, work place, concert, bar, mall etc etc, literally ANYONE can do that.  You have to have a few brain cells to make a bomb, most nut jobs think they can walk away like rambo so a suicide bomb is not fucking cool to them!  Poisoning a batch of Coke would be EXTREMELY tough to do UNLESS you already had access to the facility and knew how it worked, you don't need more than a couple of working brain cells to buy, load and fire an AR.

First off, I just previewed this post, and it is a wall of text... I swear I'm not Cryptohunter, sorry. Don't feel obligated to address everything.

I'll first start by saying that my personal experience is that I come from a family of hunters. I've had hunters safety courses, and responsibly handle any weapons. I don't personally own any high capacity weapons, and I don't have any interest in them. I've had a run in or two with bears where I sure would have loved to have had one though, and while I don't personally understand the whole sport shooting thing, I don't really think its my place to judge. As long as people behave safely with their tools, its not my concern. That said, people doing stupid things with guns really gets under my skin.

My, wow the whole gun debate is stupid rant comes from both sides. One, I agree that there are silly loopholes. Two, those that want to patch the silly loopholes do so in the most inflammatory and aggressive ways possible, so that instead of seeing a minor and reasonable patch, it becomes an attempt to aggravate the opposing side, so that they'll respond disproportionately and make an ass of themselves. If politicians actually wanted gun reform, it could have happened by now. Its just a really good way to polarize the citizens, so you secure more voters on single issues that become more important than the rest of their opinions. We can't have independents, you must change your entire political stance if you do/don't support gun rights, abortion, or other "hot" topics that in actuality matter very little.

Its fine if we don't want to breakdown military equipment or the definition of ease, you are right, it probably isn't worth the time. The point that I was going to get across, is that there are a lot of daily things we use that were specifically for military use. The U.S interstate highway system was a military project so that we could transport nuclear missiles across the country. While I initially wanted to clarify what you considered inherently bad about a gun designed for military use in mind versus one designed for sportsman, my argument doesn't change. Its that the problem solely lies on the intent of the user, psychos shouldn't have cars, axes, or guns, they do deserve help however. On a side note, AR15s were never used by the military, they were marketed directly to the public.

I brought up what your experience is buying guns in the U.S, because I don't think its quite as easy as you think. When you walk into Walmart, there is a background check done. I've been denied the purchase of a hunting rifle, because I was attempting to legally purchase it out of state, and I have a security clearance. I've had to wait two weeks before they'd allow me to purchase a gun in my home state. For the most part, people in the US that are informed about the current gun regulations aren't under the misconception that you can just walk into Cabellas, slip them $1k and walk out with a rifle. They check your drivers license and run it against a federal database.  The debate in the US is whether they should expand the background check past just criminal history. Not many gun owners are that against the idea in general, its just that expanded background checks are incredibly expensive, and it would in effect make gun ownership impossible for many.

Where I believe there is a major breakdown, is with a misconception of where the complaint regarding gun laws lies. First off, automatic weapons are illegal. An AR15 shoots just as fast as you can pull the trigger, the same with any semi automatic rifle or handgun. The original concern before it became a hot topic, was that semi automatic rifles had the same purchase restrictions as rifles and shotguns instead of handguns.  Handguns have additional purchase restrictions because their size allows them to be concealed more easily.

I have a really hard time reading taking most politically motivated published statistics seriously. Statistics are the most dishonest math there is. You can skew data with very little effort, or by intentionally or unintentionally omitting correction factors that need to be considered. I'm not arguing that AR15s are not the most used weapon in mass shootings, its just that I can't necessarily agree that its a statistically significant metric.  With dishonest statistics, if the Toyota Camry is the most common car in the US, statistics could show that it is involved in the most car crashes. As a result, you could conclude that something about Toyota Camrys makes them prone to accidents. Unless a study is absolutely transparent about everything I normally disregard them. Again, thats not to say that I'm refuting your claim, just that I'm unwilling to make a statement about it.

[omonuyak]

All this killing and man inhuman to his fellow man is really getting out of hand.  I do think that life is a bit protected in some of these advance country but the reverse is seem to be the case this days.  I think we really need to start reminding ourselves that we should value and respect life as we are not the maker of it.

[BADecker]

^^^ Absolutely right! And for schools in a free land, one of the best ways is to arm teachers and a few responsible students. This way terrorist shooters will be dead before they can do much damage.

However, to start correcting the problem, we need to get rid of the medical. Why? Because the shooters were on medical drugs that drove them to the edge of craziness. That's why they did what they did. If they didn't have the drugs, they would be too docile to do much of what they did.

[Daniel91]

^^^ Absolutely right! And for schools in a free land, one of the best ways is to arm teachers and a few responsible students. This way terrorist shooters will be dead before they can do much damage.

However, to start correcting the problem, we need to get rid of the medical. Why? Because the shooters were on medical drugs that drove them to the edge of craziness. That's why they did what they did. If they didn't have the drugs, they would be too docile to do much of what they did.

I don't think that more weapons is answer.
For example Canada has a lot of similarities with America but almost no such events in their history.
Why?
Maybe americans should learn something from them.
I also do not think all those attackers were drugged but they were probably feeling depressed, isolated and unaccepted in society.
It's very complex problem.

[r1s2g3]

^^^ Absolutely right! And for schools in a free land, one of the best ways is to arm teachers and a few responsible students.

You want to give guns to student  officially? A pretty lame idea.

I read in article that gun is  "legally"  purchased by shooter parent. What is the punishment for parent to provide the gun to their child?

I do not see any charges are pressed against the parents.

[TECSHARE]

Hmmm, okay. I posted a screenshot for a reason but anyway Let's try one more time in simple manner.

Murders rate Per million in India = 34.24

India has more than 1.2 Billion population. Let's say 1.2 billion for now, which means 1200 Million.

Now Let's multiply.

1200 * 34.24 = and you have your answer which is pretty close to murder rate.

For fun you can try this with US's population as well.

Hope this is helpful.  

Yes lets get simpler... perhaps you should look up "per capita". You too Nutilduhh.

[BADecker]

^^^ Absolutely right! And for schools in a free land, one of the best ways is to arm teachers and a few responsible students.

You want to give guns to student  officially? A pretty lame idea.

I read in article that gun is  "legally"  purchased by shooter parent. What is the punishment for parent to provide the gun to their child?

I do not see any charges are pressed against the parents.

The teachers don't need any psych evals. The responsible students do.

Completely serious. After all, it's the students that die. Give them the ability to protect themselves. If the law is the problem, change the law. The State can override the Federal in this.

[Flying Hellfish]

First off, I just previewed this post, and it is a wall of text... I swear I'm not Cryptohunter, sorry. Don't feel obligated to address everything.

LMFAO you don't have anything to worry about re being confused with CH but you did make me laugh, so good one ya!!!

FWIW I am not and have never been in favour of banning all guns, that is utterly ridiculous and if you have actually left a city centre in your lifetime (and clearly you have) you will immediately realize as you rightly point out they can be the best tool for certain non human killing tasks.

In a perfect world where everyone is responsible with owning "Military hardware" I would give zero fucks if a person wanted to spend their money on it.  But in reality far too many people are fucking stupid, lazy, indoctrinated (this is a big one as indoctrination causes decent people to do evil things too often, looking at religion here) and generally not fit to lick a window let alone own fucking assault rifles.

I fully understand the argument of "why are reasonable people punished because some people are stupid" and I agree with that for a great number of things (like recreational drugs, you want to hurt yourself, go fucking crazy) but when it comes to the safety of my kids and the community I am OK with drawing the line where the VAST majority of high income industrialized nations have decided it should be (including my country).

My children will spend what 14-20 years in educational institutions, and can go there day after day without ever fearing for their motherfucking lives.  In no way shape or form do I find it reasonable to trade their potential safety and well being for letting every tom dick and retard that can be born and fill out a form own really stupid nasty hardware.

[TECSHARE]

In no way shape or form do I find it reasonable to trade their potential safety and well being for letting every tom dick and retard that can be born and fill out a form own really stupid nasty hardware giving people who demonize inanimate objects the illusion of safety.

I fixed your argument so it appropriately represents that of gun owners. You think you have a right to make yourself and your family "safe" by disarming other people. You think your rights extend to taking the rights of others. Gun owners simply want to be able to protect their own families, and "feeling" safe because guns are restricted doesn't stop a criminal. The only way to truly be safe is to protect yourself, and here it is a right regardless of your irrational fear of inanimate objects.

[SaltySpitoon]

My children will spend what 14-20 years in educational institutions, and can go there day after day without ever fearing for their motherfucking lives.  In no way shape or form do I find it reasonable to trade their potential safety and well being for letting every tom dick and retard that can be born and fill out a form own really stupid nasty hardware.

I definitely understand you, but I think it would be far more effective to go after the roots of the problem, rather than taking the matches from tom and dick, while leaving flint and steel and a blowtorch laying around. Think about how everything was handled after 9/11. Not to make light of the death toll, but the real damage wasn't from the immediate effects, its the fallout thats going to stick around for hundreds if not thousands of years. A 90 year old woman now has to spend 30 minutes having her rectum scanned to get on a plane because now that someone has thought of a new way to be violent, tom and dick can do it too if they want.

Gun violence may seem more prevalent because its a tool of convenience, but even dumb humans have some level of ingenuity.  If we can't kill each other with nukes, we'll use traditional explosives, if we can't use those, we'll use guns, bows, swords, knives, or rocks. Hell, the crossbow was banned by the Catholic church because it was a man killer. Sure we can make the situation slightly better by getting rid of nukes, but missiles can still do plenty of damage, and thats if we don't find something even more destructive than nukes due to the lack of convenience. My point is that if we don't fix the root problem, eventually we wont be able to leave non rounded corners on the walls of buildings, as someone will eventually find a way to use those to suit their needs.

[Viron]

Why is this still happening?
And most of it keeps happening in the US, there hasn't been a single school shooting in my own country, or any of our neighbours -- ever.
Yet it happens year by year over there, dozens of times.
All the while, people just debate about gun ownership... things have really gone downhill these last several years, and they keep getting worse, is acceleration really the only option?

[BitBustah]

Why is this still happening?
And most of it keeps happening in the US, there hasn't been a single school shooting in my own country, or any of our neighbours -- ever.
Yet it happens year by year over there, dozens of times.
All the while, people just debate about gun ownership... things have really gone downhill these last several years, and they keep getting worse, is acceleration really the only option?

Factor in the entire population and these events affect very few people.  Media is making a bigger deal out of this then they should.  A lot of these shooting are probably fake anyways so they have a reason to ban guns from citizens.

[Viron]

Why is this still happening?
And most of it keeps happening in the US, there hasn't been a single school shooting in my own country, or any of our neighbours -- ever.
Yet it happens year by year over there, dozens of times.
All the while, people just debate about gun ownership... things have really gone downhill these last several years, and they keep getting worse, is acceleration really the only option?

Factor in the entire population and these events affect very few people.  Media is making a bigger deal out of this then they should.  A lot of these shooting are probably fake anyways so they have a reason to ban guns from citizens.

You doing the "crisis actors" angle? Frankly, while I wouldn't completely rule it out as a possibility, I don't think that's the case here.
Not to put words in your mouth, but the way you're phrasing it indicates that you don't really take the shootings seriously; if we assume all of it is faked, it still results in underage people being afraid of what should be the safest place for them to be at -- schools.
Though, if you're wrong -- kids are being killed, that is very serious, regardless of how many end up victims.

[kakonhat]

It was really very very sad news. Day by day increasing the crime which very causes of concern. We can see the killer or shooter targetting innocent peoples.
The government needs to take immediate action controlling the Gun.

[r1s2g3]

^^^ Absolutely right! And for schools in a free land, one of the best ways is to arm teachers and a few responsible students.

You want to give guns to student  officially? A pretty lame idea.

I read in article that gun is  "legally"  purchased by shooter parent. What is the punishment for parent to provide the gun to their child?

I do not see any charges are pressed against the parents.

The teachers don't need any psych evals. The responsible students do.

Completely serious. After all, it's the students that die. Give them the ability to protect themselves. If the law is the problem, change the law. The State can override the Federal in this.

This is very tender age to understand between right and wrong. Frankly I was inspired by "James Bond" type movies. I do not know after getting gun you will like to act as "James Bond" or you will understand more better that guns are not supposed to use as you see in movies.

Anyways, why there are no charges against parents?

[Quickseller]

My children will spend what 14-20 years in educational institutions, and can go there day after day without ever fearing for their motherfucking lives. 

Guns are already banned from schools, and this is precisely the reason why there are so many mass shootings in schools.

Teachers and school administrators should be allowed to carry guns on school property, and this would probably stop ~all school shootings. Not every teacher needs to have a gun in their classroom, but the threat that they might have one is going to be enough to prevent someone from wanting to carry out a school shooting.