How far are we from real decentralization?

[karsyla]

Hi everyone,

I have been into BTC for almost two years now, and as time goes my passion for the technology and the stuff it brings together with it grows together.
To me personally, the biggest gift BTC has brought with itself is decentralization, and now since BTC has been for over 10 years now with us I have this simple question:

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

[Artemis3]

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

Funny you mention this, decentralized DNS was also one of Satoshi's goals. Currently Theymos, the forum admin, is also revisiting this idea...

I think the altcoin Namecoin was also trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

Stock market unfortunately involves touching real world assets. As you already know, there are fully decentralized exchange platforms for the virtual assets known as crypto. But once you touch fiat or other real world assets, governments and institutions can and do get involved.

If we were to use an alternative name resolution system, we would have to all stop using the current one. This is not a problem, as the parallel dns can actually also serve the current (as some alternative dns already do), and build on top of that.

[karsyla]

Funny you mention this, decentralized DNS was also one of Satoshi's goals. Currently Theymos, the forum admin, is also revisiting this idea...

I think the altcoin Namecoin was trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

well, I cannot imagine how decentralized exchanges (stocks, cryptos, everything) should work, but being a non-tech person, I can imagine that DNS could be decentralized for sure, all you need is a freaking distributed ledger which BTC gave us 

[karsyla]

I think the altcoin Namecoin was also trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

The same goes for stocks, NXT tried to solve it but then like most projects just went gone.

Stock market unfortunately involves touching real world assets.

We could argue there that BTC is the same real world asset, since stocks only prove your ownership of a company, and the exchange of them is virtual now, nobody signs those papers anymore

[okala]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

[karsyla]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

yes but blockchain could be used to achieve decentralization in other areas of life; it could be used in so many things for the benefit of people

and BTC cannot be classified as currency I guess, it's more like a virtual gold, if we are hoping to see BTC price >100k$ and up, just imagine the fees. and the waiting times.

so in terms of financial currency, BTC is shit

[Adriano2010]

I think we are still far from a total decentralization, i think it can take some time maybe more 5 years to have full decentralization, i reffer to exchange and maybe after more time decentralized exchange will be more used.

[davis196]

Hi everyone,

I have been into BTC for almost two years now, and as time goes my passion for the technology and the stuff it brings together with it grows together.
To me personally, the biggest gift BTC has brought with itself is decentralization, and now since BTC has been for over 10 years now with us I have this simple question:

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

The stock market isn't decentralized because a lot of Wall Street parasites will lose their easy money.
We are really far from decentralization and we aren't moving further.Crypto mining is more and more concentrated,crypto trading is dominated by a few big exchange platforms that are against decentralization,because they will lose all the revenue from trading fees.

[Artemis3]

I think we are still far from a total decentralization, i think it can take some time maybe more 5 years to have full decentralization, i reffer to exchange and maybe after more time decentralized exchange will be more used.

Total decentralization can only be achieved without touching fiat. The moment you touch fiat, you are already tied to a third party.

It is theoretically possible to exchange Bitcoin with Litecoin and back, without touching an exchange, from wallet to wallet, as both have Segwit. But if you try with a government issued coin, now you are also bringing this government scrutiny in.

I know there is a method of "trading" without actually exchanging the physical papers, at least involving stocks. The so called CFDs, but this is a heavily regulated area, in most countries anyway. Its funny how the likes of eToro even do it with crypto, trading crypto without actually trading crypto...

Critical mass adoption requires people being paid in crypto so they can also pay with crypto. Then you could start observing these phenomena. I think this might come at some point, don't know when. It probably depends on the newer generations being born post Satoshi and growing with that concept already in use.

How do you talk to an older generation about memes or AI driving? Yeah some will get it, but many won't. Those are politicians and lawmakers who grew up their lives without crypto, and just don't know what to do with it.

[gentlemand]

Nowhere near it. We probably never will be.

And in many cases I actively don't want decentralisation. It's more burdensome and there's more scope for things to go tits up with little to no way of rectifying it. I want someone to moan to who'll sort it out.

As Bitcoin shows us, for something to be decentralised there needs to be an incentive for the collective maintain it. Most people can't be bothered. They want their hand held.

[karsyla]

Nowhere near it. We probably never will be.

And in many cases I actively don't want decentralisation. It's more burdensome and there's more scope for things to go tits up with little to no way of rectifying it. I want someone to moan to who'll sort it out.

As Bitcoin shows us, for something to be decentralised there needs to be an incentive for the collective maintain it. Most people can't be bothered. They want their hand held.

no, please do not shatter my hopes.  I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

[karsyla]

You clearly haven't read thread made by Theymos why decentralized DNS is difficult?

No, indeed I have not, gotta check it out

[gentlemand]

no, please do not shatter my hopes.   I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

And they'll be using Coinbase and SPV wallets while people in a far off land are doing the actual mining of their transaction. So once again someone else will be maintaining the actual decentralisation on their behalf.

Nothing wrong with that. Most people are lazy. The world has evolved to serve that laziness. 

[karsyla]

no, please do not shatter my hopes.   I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

And they'll be using  SPV wallets

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

[gentlemand]

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

Nothing. But they're not decentralised in the fullest sense.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

It's not practical to have a full node on a phone of course, but most people will never have a full node anywhere. Me included.

[karsyla]

Nothing. But they're not decentralised.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

hmm, do you think it is right to say it is not decentralized? SPV is just a practical way to connect and contribute  to blockchain (add entries to it, by submitting them to full-nodes), so it is basically the same as having full-node, except, that you pass the information to full-node and they do the job.

In the future, there might be solutions to this, but I do not see a reason to have full node now.

Miners have full-nodes, do they not?

[gentlemand]

hmm, do you think it is right to say it is not decentralized? SPV is just a practical way to connect and contribute  to blockchain (add entries to it, by submitting them to full-nodes), so it is basically the same as having full-node, except, that you pass the information to full-node and they do the job.

In the future, there might be solutions to this, but I do not see a reason to have full node now.

Miners have full-nodes, do they not?

A full node contributes to BTC's decentralisation. The more there are the harder it is to corrupt. If your transaction is through someone else's then you're benefiting from their infrastructure. And miners do indeed need them.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. For most people it's just not practical to run one. Decentralisation in the forms we see now is a grind which is why for most people it's always going to be someone else's job, not theirs.

Do I want decentralised Amazon? Hell no. I want to press a button and get it and doing it through one company is a lot less hassle. If it's late I want to them to pay me or chase it up.

This is why we'll never see a decentralised world and most people don't need or want one.

The people who NEED it will make it happen and maintain it while the rest of the world ignores it and stays centralised for the sake of an easy life.

[Haunebu]

This is why we'll never see a decentralised world and most people don't need or want one.

The people who NEED it will make it happen and maintain it while the rest of the world ignores it and stays centralised for the sake of an easy life.

Agreed. Imagine living in a world without central authority. People seem to think only about the positive prospects, but negate the negative prospects. Crime would flourish in such a world and humanity would basically rip itself apart.

A centralized world is key for the survival of the human race though decentralization does help in some aspects(Crypto etc).

[Artemis3]

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

Nothing. But they're not decentralised in the fullest sense.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

It's not practical to have a full node on a phone of course, but most people will never have a full node anywhere. Me included.

I'm running a full node (not 24/7). I also got the Electrum Personal Server, which actually doesn't need a full node, just a pruned node, but i plan to experiment with other things that need a full node running anyway. Lately with all the Electrum DoS attacks by the angry Electrum server phisher operators getting kicked out, i got into the habit of connecting it to my own server, and now Electrum behaves a lot like Core. Sure i could also use core, but its fun to do it this way. And i know with a proper electrum server i could even let others connect (if the internet here wasn't such a piece of garbage).

But other than to satisfy my own curiosity, there is little incentive to run one. It does take significant bandwidth and storage if you run it in full, but you don't earn a single Satoshi from it. The theory is, people actually earning money with Bitcoin, should be compelled to run their nodes, but many large miners don't even bother, they just point their asics to some giant Chinese pool that manages the money for themselves so they can pay bills they couldn't if they managed their own money, because temptation to not spent is hard to overcome and they rather pay more someone else to retain the money from them and dispense it in small but continual doses for extra fees.

And then there is the business that accept Bitcoin, who also out of, i don't know, charity? would run their own nodes in their shop. Hmm i don't think that is happening much either, tho they would be better running Core, i think most will just go with an SPV wallet.

Of course if I was in charge, i would know better, but people are people...


Decentralized Amazon? Here: https://openbazaar.org/

Would i want it? Yes, especially after Amazon decided to send a security code to an email account i can't receive messages from anymore but the idiots won't let me change it without logging in first, and that requires the code they sent to that email account... Besides Amazon practices are becoming worse every day.

[Beerwizzard]

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?

The another point is that people are doing fine without centralization. Companies are using our data and providing a better service because we share it, governments are taking all the advantage of controling and tracking all our activities and transactions. And all those things work such a user-friendly way when you don't even notice that someone is using your private data. And that's because even most users don't really care about it.

[gentlemand]

Decentralized Amazon? Here: https://openbazaar.org/

Would i want it? Yes, especially after Amazon decided to send a security code to an email account i can't receive messages from anymore but the idiots won't let me change it without logging in first, and that requires the code they sent to that email account... Besides Amazon practices are becoming worse every day.

I like the idea of it. I've also downloaded and deleted it multiple times. The search is useless, then again Amazon's isn't much good either, I have no idea how good the shipping will be and if the item turns out to be crap, broken or I simply don't want it then it's more of a hassle than Amazon will ever be.

It does have a valid place. It's always going to be a niche, not the norm.

[LUCKMCFLY]

Well there is an important reason why Centralization may continue to be successful.

For example, in order to achieve decentralization completely in an Exchange, there must be a support team that provides the best services, in some Centralized Exchanges they not only provide the best support service, they also address the problems in the users and solve them quickly. .

If we achieve that, at Exchanges are decentralized would be on the right track now complete decentralization is somewhat complicated, because although we have our freedom based on Crypto, If we really want to take our profits Trading Bitcoin and Altcoins compulsorily must be passed to USD or the local currency being used, if it is that way, we depend directly from banks, and banks are issuing in FIAT money, if any banks Cryptos or banks that accept Bitcoin exchange for USD or local currency, I would think that we are already moving forward and making great progress worldwide, I think we should start there.

Some Exchanges such as Localbitcoins, allow bitcoin users to trade by selling and buying bitcoins for FIAT money, and by other means that are money exchanges, this is the most decentralized thing I have found, and it is already a good progress, without But they already demand KYC, which means that somehow you have to leave IDs.

I think you could start there ...

[Youghoor]

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?

What do you mean by real decentralization? Decentralization is just the change of authority in terms of controlling and managing the affairs of a specific something from a central body to individualized based system.  Bitcoin and its blockchain network presents  a system which makes it possible for indiviual users to be in charge of their own funds rather than a centralized body.

[rodel caling]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

That's the important things why we here supporting bitcoin and virtual currency to use as finacial freedom nothing to argue decentralized or centralized. The important so far bitcoin igves more opportunities to their users. Time has comes the decentralization will come true in the right time because 10 years is too much younger and expert continue to learn how virtual currency improve well.

[exchangestolemycoins]

DNS is decentralized. The internet is for the most part, decentralized.

Anything involving money is not decentralized, and that will take some time to change. Think about if a big business deal went bad. The goods were delivered, and appeared to be undamaged, but some weeks later it is determined they are contaminated. If the payment was made in a decentralized manner, there is no reversing that. The buyer is screwed. But when things are centralized, the bank / credit card company has power and can reverse the flow of funds (chargeback for example). People don't want to lose that power and safety blanket.

If a system of reputation could be developed, then that's a potential answer.

[Bunsomjelican]

Hi everyone,

I have been into BTC for almost two years now, and as time goes my passion for the technology and the stuff it brings together with it grows together.
To me personally, the biggest gift BTC has brought with itself is decentralization, and now since BTC has been for over 10 years now with us I have this simple question:

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

As we all know, decentralized was unregulated business and not own by any official authority in the government. Where everyone is anonymous and We are the only person who can able to protect and save our coins. That's there is no any KYC requirements needed if we want to trade coins in the platform.

[shesheboy]

far ? no not really  . by using cryptos you are already in a decentralized system because cryptos are known to be anonymous and is unregulated by banks however when you choose to use centralized exchanged or other centralized service that requires a kyc then you are the one that leaving the decentralized scene   .

DNS is decentralized. The internet is for the most part, decentralized.

oh really ? i didnt knew that fact but thanks btw  .

Anything involving money is not decentralized, and that will take some time to change.

what about cryptos ? cryptos are also a currency same as money  but why cryptos are known to be decentralized  ?

[Nolimitz84]

We're still at the beginning.Decentralization is gradually entering our lives.Applications,services,communities are created that are aimed at complete decentralization.Therefore, at the moment we are still far from real decentralization,but the movement is set.I hope sometime we will still begin to live without the 3rd party.

[karsyla]

The another point is that people are doing fine without centralization. Companies are using our data and providing a better service because we share it, governments are taking all the advantage of controling and tracking all our activities and transactions. And all those things work such a user-friendly way when you don't even notice that someone is using your private data. And that's because even most users don't really care about it.

I am not talking about complete decentralization in every single aspect of our lives, but at least in those where it would be beneficial like my mentioned DNS and stock exchanges or voting. Blockchain could be used to achieve direct democracy without this representative shit

[karsyla]

DNS is decentralized. The internet is for the most part, decentralized.

could you elaborate on this please? Because I do not see how DNS or especially internet is decentralized.

[waynechong1995]

Most like decades as the base on crypto nowadays are based on exchanges and business adoptions. Users dealing with a merchant directly using crypto is not common at all. Arguably BTC is not possible to 100% decentralisation due to fact that its an assets on regulations matter that still somehow hold liability on the user.

[Jeborn]

Even though blockchain  have achieved quite alot in the last decade. The ultimate goal of full scale decentralized economy lies with adoptions of blockchain bitcoin as a payment solution and other solutions the multitude of cryptocurrencies we have in the a market have. Not until then we can boast of true decentralization and I believe this may probably take a while couple of decades maybe.

[antisocial77]

never.i believe that current system will never allow crytpocurrency to be decentralize.when we become really rival to fiat money, they try to forbid crypto.i hope they cant succeed.

[xWolfx]

The another point is that people are doing fine without centralization. Companies are using our data and providing a better service because we share it, governments are taking all the advantage of controling and tracking all our activities and transactions. And all those things work such a user-friendly way when you don't even notice that someone is using your private data. And that's because even most users don't really care about it.

Truth. And precisely because of that lack of curiosity true decentralization is not going to exist, why? - Because people want things easy to do and they don't really care much about how they work.

Some of us do care about stuffs and we research and think about them and offer ideas. But until that is truth for the vast majority of world's population then chasing that dream is a waste of time. It's better to have a fair level of decentralization and go for mass adoption from my point of view.

[sehoon]

I think as time goes by, we are getting far from the real decentralization. Because there are already people who governs things that are related to cryptocurrency. And I think anytime soon government can get involve. There are also big corporations who are now getting involve and I think they want control on other things here since this is a profitable world.

[exchangestolemycoins]

DNS is decentralized. The internet is for the most part, decentralized.

could you elaborate on this please? Because I do not see how DNS or especially internet is decentralized.

Yeah - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System

"The Domain Name System (DNS) is a hierarchical and decentralized naming system for computers, services, or other resources connected to the Internet or a private network..."

One could argue that the administrators in charge of delegating "sub-domains" do not act in the best interest of everybody. But if a DNS server goes down, you can always ask another server and they will tell you what IP address to go to (https://webhostinggeeks.com/guides/dns/dnsguide.png)

[rachellee]

No one can really tell exactly how far we are from it. The transition pace to it could slow down or speed up as we near it, depending on the challenges that its haters may throw to it and the reactions of the community to it, but one thing is for sure, we shouldn't let go now more than ever despite these struggles. It is almost at hand, and its future is getting clearer and clearer as more and more people and nations are adopting crypto.

[thesmallgod]

the chance of reaching real decentralization of asset is very slim. despite outrageous numbers of coin and token that claim decentralization, many of them are listed on centralized platform which make it difficult to achieve complete decentralization. Even the bulk of people that hold crypto today end up converting it to fiat before they can spend it on anything they want and ones you are making contact with fiat then decentralization power is quenched. I hope you know stock market trade assets that are backup by company directly control by government. we all know government wont want decentralized system

[thirdlight]

the chance of reaching real decentralization of asset is very slim. despite outrageous numbers of coin and token that claim decentralization, many of them are listed on centralized platform which make it difficult to achieve complete decentralization. Even the bulk of people that hold crypto today end up converting it to fiat before they can spend it on anything they want and ones you are making contact with fiat then decentralization power is quenched. I hope you know stock market trade assets that are backup by company directly control by government. we all know government wont want decentralized system

I do not believe in real decentralization and I think that we will not see it in the coming years. Perhaps new projects will be able to do this, we'll see.

[karsyla]

some other projects like IOTA have the potential to achieve real decentralization

[enhu]

It may take a long discussion till we see real world decentralization in stock market but we have been seeing BTC on FOREX and NASDAQ which we can now consider BTC is accepted investment. A long discussions for Financial Regulations and law and then SEC which had been delaying everything but once finalize I think it can happen faster. There are projects/platforms that will tokenize businesses/companies in stockmarket and probably even those in DOW, I guess they can use the platform if there really is a plan to make stock market decentralize.

[Nasonn]

We are still very far from decentralisation but gradually we will get there. Decentralised is spreading at a reasonable pace and many new actors are getting into the space. In ten years time we would have gotten more closer than we are today.

[uneng]

The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

I think it might not happen. One reason is that an exchange is a good platform where there is high volumes of coins and security assured, another reason is that exchanges can be the eyes of a country's government to check how the trades and transactions are being done, so if there is anything suspicious they whisper the government to invesgate further.

Without interference of exchanges it would be a p2p market: it's risker to deal and it difficults the high volume transactions as the money will be fragmented. In addition it's hard for authorities to investigate frauds.

[maldini]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

Yup, I think that's the main thing, the real freedom is when we have what Fiat doesn't have and Bitcoin has it that is decentralized and this is real evidence that is felt. There are no taxes, low fees, and much more. It's as if someone who holds it has full, this is real decentralization

[kamBlanV]

the government limits the spread of BTC, so we only see decentralized that are not real.  do you know the DNS component?  such as DNS resolver, recursive DNS, and authoritative DNS.  we will see real decentralized when the government makes regulations about crypto.

[jak3]

Ok, first of all, there are decentralized DNS available in the market you can go and buy them. And secondly not everything can be decentralized at this point the main thing is if we can remove the banking systems and can put the Bitcoin or any altcoin payment methods in a country that will be that true decentralization in a country.but for this type of massive adoption we need at least 30% of the country's population to be interested in Bitcoin usage. and doing this will result in the complete collapse of banks and maybe it will be the welcoming part of cryptocurrencies.

[CryptoBry]

It may take a long discussion till we see real world decentralization in stock market but we have been seeing BTC on FOREX and NASDAQ which we can now consider BTC is accepted investment. A long discussions for Financial Regulations and law and then SEC which had been delaying everything but once finalize I think it can happen faster. There are projects/platforms that will tokenize businesses/companies in stockmarket and probably even those in DOW, I guess they can use the platform if there really is a plan to make stock market decentralize.

This can, of course, take time because there is no magic bean here. There are many factors that have to be consider first before we can go full blast with decentralization and with the weaknesses of human nature we don\t want this to be abused so we should take one step at a time to make sure that at the right time everything can be all ready.