How far are we from real decentralization?

[karsyla]

Hi everyone,

I have been into BTC for almost two years now, and as time goes my passion for the technology and the stuff it brings together with it grows together.
To me personally, the biggest gift BTC has brought with itself is decentralization, and now since BTC has been for over 10 years now with us I have this simple question:

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

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[Artemis3]

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

Funny you mention this, decentralized DNS was also one of Satoshi's goals. Currently Theymos, the forum admin, is also revisiting this idea...

I think the altcoin Namecoin was also trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

Stock market unfortunately involves touching real world assets. As you already know, there are fully decentralized exchange platforms for the virtual assets known as crypto. But once you touch fiat or other real world assets, governments and institutions can and do get involved.

If we were to use an alternative name resolution system, we would have to all stop using the current one. This is not a problem, as the parallel dns can actually also serve the current (as some alternative dns already do), and build on top of that.

[karsyla]

Funny you mention this, decentralized DNS was also one of Satoshi's goals. Currently Theymos, the forum admin, is also revisiting this idea...

I think the altcoin Namecoin was trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

well, I cannot imagine how decentralized exchanges (stocks, cryptos, everything) should work, but being a non-tech person, I can imagine that DNS could be decentralized for sure, all you need is a freaking distributed ledger which BTC gave us 

[karsyla]

I think the altcoin Namecoin was also trying something like this, not sure whatever happened to it.

The same goes for stocks, NXT tried to solve it but then like most projects just went gone.

Stock market unfortunately involves touching real world assets.

We could argue there that BTC is the same real world asset, since stocks only prove your ownership of a company, and the exchange of them is virtual now, nobody signs those papers anymore

[okala]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

[karsyla]

The real decentralization is in the usage as long as bitcoin holders can spend the bitcoin at the time they want that is the freedom and haven gain but the financial freedom and giving us the secondary currency which is without border restrictions.

yes but blockchain could be used to achieve decentralization in other areas of life; it could be used in so many things for the benefit of people

and BTC cannot be classified as currency I guess, it's more like a virtual gold, if we are hoping to see BTC price >100k$ and up, just imagine the fees. and the waiting times.

so in terms of financial currency, BTC is shit

[Adriano2010]

I think we are still far from a total decentralization, i think it can take some time maybe more 5 years to have full decentralization, i reffer to exchange and maybe after more time decentralized exchange will be more used.

[davis196]

Hi everyone,

I have been into BTC for almost two years now, and as time goes my passion for the technology and the stuff it brings together with it grows together.
To me personally, the biggest gift BTC has brought with itself is decentralization, and now since BTC has been for over 10 years now with us I have this simple question:

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?
What I want to point out is, I have been learning a lot recently about tech in general and, for example, I have learned what DNS is.

Why are we not seeing a decentralized DNS yet?? just why???
The same goes for stock market. Why is it not decentralized yet, allowing people to exchange stocks without the interference of exchanges?

The stock market isn't decentralized because a lot of Wall Street parasites will lose their easy money.
We are really far from decentralization and we aren't moving further.Crypto mining is more and more concentrated,crypto trading is dominated by a few big exchange platforms that are against decentralization,because they will lose all the revenue from trading fees.

[Artemis3]

I think we are still far from a total decentralization, i think it can take some time maybe more 5 years to have full decentralization, i reffer to exchange and maybe after more time decentralized exchange will be more used.

Total decentralization can only be achieved without touching fiat. The moment you touch fiat, you are already tied to a third party.

It is theoretically possible to exchange Bitcoin with Litecoin and back, without touching an exchange, from wallet to wallet, as both have Segwit. But if you try with a government issued coin, now you are also bringing this government scrutiny in.

I know there is a method of "trading" without actually exchanging the physical papers, at least involving stocks. The so called CFDs, but this is a heavily regulated area, in most countries anyway. Its funny how the likes of eToro even do it with crypto, trading crypto without actually trading crypto...

Critical mass adoption requires people being paid in crypto so they can also pay with crypto. Then you could start observing these phenomena. I think this might come at some point, don't know when. It probably depends on the newer generations being born post Satoshi and growing with that concept already in use.

How do you talk to an older generation about memes or AI driving? Yeah some will get it, but many won't. Those are politicians and lawmakers who grew up their lives without crypto, and just don't know what to do with it.

[gentlemand]

Nowhere near it. We probably never will be.

And in many cases I actively don't want decentralisation. It's more burdensome and there's more scope for things to go tits up with little to no way of rectifying it. I want someone to moan to who'll sort it out.

As Bitcoin shows us, for something to be decentralised there needs to be an incentive for the collective maintain it. Most people can't be bothered. They want their hand held.

[karsyla]

Nowhere near it. We probably never will be.

And in many cases I actively don't want decentralisation. It's more burdensome and there's more scope for things to go tits up with little to no way of rectifying it. I want someone to moan to who'll sort it out.

As Bitcoin shows us, for something to be decentralised there needs to be an incentive for the collective maintain it. Most people can't be bothered. They want their hand held.

no, please do not shatter my hopes.  I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

[karsyla]

You clearly haven't read thread made by Theymos why decentralized DNS is difficult?

No, indeed I have not, gotta check it out

[gentlemand]

no, please do not shatter my hopes.   I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

And they'll be using Coinbase and SPV wallets while people in a far off land are doing the actual mining of their transaction. So once again someone else will be maintaining the actual decentralisation on their behalf.

Nothing wrong with that. Most people are lazy. The world has evolved to serve that laziness. 

[karsyla]

no, please do not shatter my hopes.   I want to see the world decentralized, but I cannot disagree with you saying that people 'want their hand held', some of them cannot take full responsibility for themselves and need to be looked after, but I think there is a great deal of people who want to see crypto being used everywhere including buying a bread on walmart

And they'll be using  SPV wallets

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

[gentlemand]

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

Nothing. But they're not decentralised in the fullest sense.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

It's not practical to have a full node on a phone of course, but most people will never have a full node anywhere. Me included.

[karsyla]

Nothing. But they're not decentralised.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

hmm, do you think it is right to say it is not decentralized? SPV is just a practical way to connect and contribute  to blockchain (add entries to it, by submitting them to full-nodes), so it is basically the same as having full-node, except, that you pass the information to full-node and they do the job.

In the future, there might be solutions to this, but I do not see a reason to have full node now.

Miners have full-nodes, do they not?

[gentlemand]

hmm, do you think it is right to say it is not decentralized? SPV is just a practical way to connect and contribute  to blockchain (add entries to it, by submitting them to full-nodes), so it is basically the same as having full-node, except, that you pass the information to full-node and they do the job.

In the future, there might be solutions to this, but I do not see a reason to have full node now.

Miners have full-nodes, do they not?

A full node contributes to BTC's decentralisation. The more there are the harder it is to corrupt. If your transaction is through someone else's then you're benefiting from their infrastructure. And miners do indeed need them.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. For most people it's just not practical to run one. Decentralisation in the forms we see now is a grind which is why for most people it's always going to be someone else's job, not theirs.

Do I want decentralised Amazon? Hell no. I want to press a button and get it and doing it through one company is a lot less hassle. If it's late I want to them to pay me or chase it up.

This is why we'll never see a decentralised world and most people don't need or want one.

The people who NEED it will make it happen and maintain it while the rest of the world ignores it and stays centralised for the sake of an easy life.

[Haunebu]

This is why we'll never see a decentralised world and most people don't need or want one.

The people who NEED it will make it happen and maintain it while the rest of the world ignores it and stays centralised for the sake of an easy life.

Agreed. Imagine living in a world without central authority. People seem to think only about the positive prospects, but negate the negative prospects. Crime would flourish in such a world and humanity would basically rip itself apart.

A centralized world is key for the survival of the human race though decentralization does help in some aspects(Crypto etc).

[Artemis3]

what's wrong with SPV wallets?

Nothing. But they're not decentralised in the fullest sense.

Someone else is running a node that you're tapping into. They're paying for it and maintaining it. A SPV user is leaching off them. If you really want to do it right then only your own node is good enough.

It's not practical to have a full node on a phone of course, but most people will never have a full node anywhere. Me included.

I'm running a full node (not 24/7). I also got the Electrum Personal Server, which actually doesn't need a full node, just a pruned node, but i plan to experiment with other things that need a full node running anyway. Lately with all the Electrum DoS attacks by the angry Electrum server phisher operators getting kicked out, i got into the habit of connecting it to my own server, and now Electrum behaves a lot like Core. Sure i could also use core, but its fun to do it this way. And i know with a proper electrum server i could even let others connect (if the internet here wasn't such a piece of garbage).

But other than to satisfy my own curiosity, there is little incentive to run one. It does take significant bandwidth and storage if you run it in full, but you don't earn a single Satoshi from it. The theory is, people actually earning money with Bitcoin, should be compelled to run their nodes, but many large miners don't even bother, they just point their asics to some giant Chinese pool that manages the money for themselves so they can pay bills they couldn't if they managed their own money, because temptation to not spent is hard to overcome and they rather pay more someone else to retain the money from them and dispense it in small but continual doses for extra fees.

And then there is the business that accept Bitcoin, who also out of, i don't know, charity? would run their own nodes in their shop. Hmm i don't think that is happening much either, tho they would be better running Core, i think most will just go with an SPV wallet.

Of course if I was in charge, i would know better, but people are people...


Decentralized Amazon? Here: https://openbazaar.org/

Would i want it? Yes, especially after Amazon decided to send a security code to an email account i can't receive messages from anymore but the idiots won't let me change it without logging in first, and that requires the code they sent to that email account... Besides Amazon practices are becoming worse every day.

[Beerwizzard]

How far are we from a real decentralization in more aspects of our lives and technology?

The another point is that people are doing fine without centralization. Companies are using our data and providing a better service because we share it, governments are taking all the advantage of controling and tracking all our activities and transactions. And all those things work such a user-friendly way when you don't even notice that someone is using your private data. And that's because even most users don't really care about it.