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Author Topic: Italy just figured out that the country doesn't fully control its gold  (Read 578 times)
omone1
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June 10, 2019, 01:17:00 PM
 #41

This is very serious, you own an asset that can make you feel good and financially free and yet you have no power to decide what to do and when to use it. This is somehow embarrassing to the state of Italy. Well the government of Italy may want to consider investment in bitcoin. 

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June 10, 2019, 04:36:22 PM
 #42

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Given that the national central banks are subordinated to the ECB, 2 Italians MPs asked the ECB on the legal status of gold reserves in the euro area states. Guess what? The ECB confirmed its authority!

Quote
"The ECB must approve any operation concerning the remaining reserves within the national central banks (...) as well as Member States' transactions with their foreign reserve balances above a certain amount"

So Italy may be the owner but they can't do whatever they want with!
well thats how EU  works and as part of the eu youhave to obey the rules and i do think those rules are made for the best of the eu member.
This is very serious, you own an asset that can make you feel good and financially free and yet you have no power to decide what to do and when to use it. This is somehow embarrassing to the state of Italy. Well the government of Italy may want to consider investment in bitcoin. 
i do think bitcoin has a great potential but i dont think eu will allow you to sell your gold to buy bitcoin. Bitcoin still so volatile and its not good to invest nation reserve to something that unpredicted and still have a legal issue in other countries.

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June 28, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
 #43

You are out of context, some started to speculate of Italy selling its gold reserves because Italy has huge national debt and their economy is in bad shape.


well thats how EU  works and as part of the eu youhave to obey the rules and i do think those rules are made for the best of the eu member.

You cant be more wrong in this situation. EU is doing exactly what they should regarding economic policies. Italy has a huge debt, their economic is in bad shape. And they are refusing to cut their spending to get their economic act together. If their current government is stubborn and does not understand that they can not live only on debt, EU has to act. In the end ECb has to bail them out on the expense on others if their economy goes down the drain.


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July 02, 2019, 10:46:31 AM
 #44

What's the point of holding any gold reserve at all then?
Tradition

When Sen. Ron Paul asked B. Bernanke "Is gold money?", Bernanke answered no.
"Then why central banks keep gold reserves?"
... "Tradition!"

Pinocchio Bernanke...


Again, sovereignty is extremely important when it comes to reserves in my opinion. That's a part of the reason why I believe BTC used in nation's reserves will be more common in the future, since you simply don't need to outsource the storage to another country.
Gold reserves storage too doesn't need to be outsourced...
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July 02, 2019, 11:41:38 AM
 #45

In the European Union there are many contradictions between countries and the leaderships of different countries and the European Parliament. Moreover, it often happens that the European Parliament comes into conflict with some countries and due to constant conflicts and bureaucratic difficulties many problems either are postponed or are not solved at all. The problem of the EU is that the countries dont have a common unity. Each country continues to think about its benefits and defends its interests.

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July 02, 2019, 01:35:44 PM
 #46

What's the point of holding any gold reserve at all then?
Tradition

When Sen. Ron Paul asked B. Bernanke "Is gold money?", Bernanke answered no.
"Then why central banks keep gold reserves?"
... "Tradition!"

Pinocchio Bernanke...


Again, sovereignty is extremely important when it comes to reserves in my opinion. That's a part of the reason why I believe BTC used in nation's reserves will be more common in the future, since you simply don't need to outsource the storage to another country.
Gold reserves storage too doesn't need to be outsourced...

If countries decide to store the gold reserve outside this is their responsibility. Who is forcing countries to store here or there? IFM has no choice to store gold somewhere (since it's not a country) but all other countries do have the choice. The same goes for citizens by the way.
The US and London have the biggest volumes, that's why countries decide to store gold there. If they decide to sell, it can be sold quickly.

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July 04, 2019, 01:17:10 AM
 #47

Considering how things are set in the EU, such rules should not surprise us too much. To my knowledge some 70% of all decisions are being voted in the European Parliament, which to some extent makes sense for the big states, but not for those small countries with a small number of representatives.

To me personally makes no sense that I need to ask you what will I do with my money, but in this case with gold ECB has set a protective mechanism for some purpose.

Italy is the third country in the world by reserves of gold, but from what I read they do not want to sell gold to repay the debts which is the largest in Europe (€2300 billion in 2017). Italy has another problem related to gold, it is not clear who is the owner of gold - Bank of Italy or state.

More info :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-gold-borghi/italy-government-wont-sell-a-gram-of-gold-reserves-league-lawmaker-idUSKCN1Q20Q1
https://news.goldcore.com/ie/gold-blog/italian-debt-financial-disaster/

It's no different in any other country. There's always higher powers that be that control assets such as gold resources. Anyone that thinks that the politicians that supposedly people elected with their votes, can unilaterally do business their gold reserves is deluded.

The only true sovereignty is in Bitcoin, the rest is just subjugated by an elite which has nothing to do with you, me or anyone in here. Which is why Bitcoin continues to be insanely undervalued until it's at least 8 $trillion marketcap.




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July 04, 2019, 09:19:15 AM
 #48

If countries decide to store the gold reserve outside this is their responsibility. Who is forcing countries to store here or there? IFM has no choice to store gold somewhere (since it's not a country) but all other countries do have the choice.
Well, not all countries are free to choose the storage location.
For example, Italy isn't, as Central Banks are so powerful that they decide about it, and not only about it but in general about how to manage the gold reserves of a country.
That's the reason of the Italian Gov's motion
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July 04, 2019, 12:29:36 PM
 #49

If countries decide to store the gold reserve outside this is their responsibility. Who is forcing countries to store here or there? IFM has no choice to store gold somewhere (since it's not a country) but all other countries do have the choice.
Well, not all countries are free to choose the storage location.
For example, Italy isn't, as Central Banks are so powerful that they decide about it, and not only about it but in general about how to manage the gold reserves of a country.
That's the reason of the Italian Gov's motion
Italian officers must know about this ruling since they put their gold reserve on the Euro area states. They did this for a purpose and for sure something is happening that we can’t know. So if you compare this into cryprocurrency, its just like putting a money on the exchanges just like the example given above. Its not too late for Italy to do something, there are still ways to save their economy for good.
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July 06, 2019, 06:23:46 PM
 #50

The US and London have the biggest volumes, that's why countries decide to store gold there. If they decide to sell, it can be sold quickly.
Maybe,
or maybe Central Banks decide to store the gold reserves of a country in the US and London because over there it is easier for them to manage those reserves for currencies manipulation purposes
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July 06, 2019, 08:55:52 PM
 #51

Of course, Italy cannot dispose of its foreign exchange reserves. After all, this country belongs to the European Union, has united its economy with other states and therefore uses not its national currency, but the euro. This obliges at least a part of its gold and currency reserves to subordinate to allied needs in order to secure the euro.

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July 06, 2019, 10:49:29 PM
 #52

Italy just figured out that the country doesn't fully control its gold

Italy just sold share of their most northern port Trieste to Hungary. Croatia and Slovenia both refused to sell part of their ports to Hungarians, Italy did not hesitated. They dont learn it seems.


at least a part of its gold and currency reserves to subordinate to allied needs in order to secure the euro.

Euro is not backed by gold but by


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July 06, 2019, 11:14:47 PM
 #53


This is exactly why Juncker wanted an EU army and all the members can thank their lucky stars they never got one.
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July 07, 2019, 08:58:54 AM
 #54

That is why cryptocurrencies were invented .
At the end of the day , there are bulls , the market share holders only have a descent amount of control enough to just sell only a small amount which is profitable to not only them but to everyone too.
They should just invest the money in cryptocurrencies so that it infact could be theirs .
Not even fiat kept in bank can be ours , it's the government's property and they can just freeze it anytime.
Gold unless it's kept stored in your house , is also the same.



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July 07, 2019, 10:46:24 AM
 #55

I would not agree that Euro is backed by any european army of with weaponry. EU is actually divided to interest groups of countries, and if time is come they will defend their interests. If someone thinks the Portuguese or the French will die for the interests of Romanians or Poles or vice versa, that person lives in a big misapprehension.

EU is at this point strong in such measure how strong is the Germany and France, and all other countries are just listen and follow most of time. East of EU is a bit problematic because Hungary, Poland and some others countries do not want to play strictly by the rules, and countries like Romania, Bulgaria or Croatia only serve as a source of cheap labor for west EU.

Italy is somewhere in the middle of this story, but fact that they have over 130% debt (second largest in the worlds) of their GDP and fact that 70% of all decisions are made in the European Parliament does not leave them too much of a maneuver space. They need to listen ECB and be obedient, if they say "your gold is not exactly your gold", then there is not to much to say on that.

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July 07, 2019, 06:19:16 PM
 #56

Euro is not backed by gold but by



Nope, it's backed by this:



I would not agree that Euro is backed by any european army of with weaponry. EU is actually divided to interest groups of countries, and if time is come they will defend their interests. If someone thinks the Portuguese or the French will die for the interests of Romanians or Poles or vice versa, that person lives in a big misapprehension.

Why wouldn't they?
They've died for Mali, for Kuwait, for South Korea and for a lot more, Portugal sent troops to East Timor Tongue
Who would have thought that France and Great Britan who had been at war for centuries would spend a century as allies in both WW?

Vietnam is begging the US for support against China, an aircraft carrier was deployed there last year...
In 1970you would have believed this is going to happen?


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July 09, 2019, 08:26:53 PM
 #57

it has always been and will continue this way, that everyone will protect only their own interests.  And if these interests coincide, then only then can there be any associations.  The European Union is already outdated and has become a bureaucratic structure that cannot fully protect itself.

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July 11, 2019, 10:25:42 PM
 #58

Euro is not backed by gold but by



Nope, it's backed by this:



I would not agree that Euro is backed by any european army of with weaponry. EU is actually divided to interest groups of countries, and if time is come they will defend their interests. If someone thinks the Portuguese or the French will die for the interests of Romanians or Poles or vice versa, that person lives in a big misapprehension.

Why wouldn't they?
They've died for Mali, for Kuwait, for South Korea and for a lot more, Portugal sent troops to East Timor Tongue
Who would have thought that France and Great Britan who had been at war for centuries would spend a century as allies in both WW?

Vietnam is begging the US for support against China, an aircraft carrier was deployed there last year...
In 1970you would have believed this is going to happen?

Yup I totally agree.  And if we look in past I am sure many times Portuguese and French soldiers were fighting for Romania.   Europe was a continent of wars. Every single country fought most of time. When they closed one war they opened another. It was that way for 1000 years. EU stopped that.  EU is huge project. It is an infant and of course have lots of enemies. All strong countries are afraid of united Europe.  Al the rest are happen to have free trade with Europe. Japan, Vietnam, South America. Whoever is liberal can join to prosper.

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August 11, 2019, 06:35:57 AM
 #59

It's funny and a shame at the same time that a country boastfully owns gold for its reserves, only to know in the end that they don't fully have the rights to spend it or use it on any things they like or wish to since they need to ask permission first for their own property. I wonder what would be the reaction of other countries if they found out about this. To be fair though, everyone under the European Central Bank would have the same treatment, or would have the same process if they'd like to use that gold in reserves (CMIIW, thank you) so Italy is not alone on this ordeal.
In my opinion, this is a normal state of affairs. If the states combined their finances and their foreign exchange reserves and on this basis created a common currency - the euro, then they are obliged to coordinate their financial actions with the European Bank. If each country continues to dispose of its gold and foreign exchange reserves at its discretion, then the euro will be completely unsecured.

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