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Author Topic: Italy just figured out that the country doesn't fully control its gold  (Read 580 times)
LeGaulois
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May 13, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #1

Quote
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Given that the national central banks are subordinated to the ECB, 2 Italians MPs asked the ECB on the legal status of gold reserves in the euro area states. Guess what? The ECB confirmed its authority!

Quote
"The ECB must approve any operation concerning the remaining reserves within the national central banks (...) as well as Member States' transactions with their foreign reserve balances above a certain amount"

So Italy may be the owner but they can't do whatever they want with!

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May 13, 2019, 01:53:59 PM
Merited by dothebeats (1), LoyceV (1)
 #2

Considering how things are set in the EU, such rules should not surprise us too much. To my knowledge some 70% of all decisions are being voted in the European Parliament, which to some extent makes sense for the big states, but not for those small countries with a small number of representatives.

To me personally makes no sense that I need to ask you what will I do with my money, but in this case with gold ECB has set a protective mechanism for some purpose.

Italy is the third country in the world by reserves of gold, but from what I read they do not want to sell gold to repay the debts which is the largest in Europe (€2300 billion in 2017). Italy has another problem related to gold, it is not clear who is the owner of gold - Bank of Italy or state.

More info :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-gold-borghi/italy-government-wont-sell-a-gram-of-gold-reserves-league-lawmaker-idUSKCN1Q20Q1
https://news.goldcore.com/ie/gold-blog/italian-debt-financial-disaster/

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May 13, 2019, 01:59:31 PM
 #3

It's funny and a shame at the same time that a country boastfully owns gold for its reserves, only to know in the end that they don't fully have the rights to spend it or use it on any things they like or wish to since they need to ask permission first for their own property. I wonder what would be the reaction of other countries if they found out about this. To be fair though, everyone under the European Central Bank would have the same treatment, or would have the same process if they'd like to use that gold in reserves (CMIIW, thank you) so Italy is not alone on this ordeal.




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May 13, 2019, 02:42:24 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #4

Quote
No private keys, Not your coins!


Given that the national central banks are subordinated to the ECB, 2 Italians MPs asked the ECB on the legal status of gold reserves in the euro area states. Guess what? The ECB confirmed its authority!

Quote
"The ECB must approve any operation concerning the remaining reserves within the national central banks (...) as well as Member States' transactions with their foreign reserve balances above a certain amount"

So Italy may be the owner but they can't do whatever they want with!

I don't see any surprising element in that! Because that's how the European union is structured and every national bank is affiliated with ECB who is the whole and sole owner of the currency in Eurozone! And yes, I clap for the first comment you posted which nicely shows the entire scenario by adding a crypto perspective to it.

That's one of the pain points for UK and that's whay they wanted to leave Euro zone to maintain control on their own wealth and didn't want to use that wealth to bail out poorer countries.

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May 13, 2019, 02:42:32 PM
 #5

The situation with the Italian gold reserves really looks humiliating for Italy. At such moments, I understand how valuable Bitcoin is and I realize that it carries the freedom for all of us to manage our money ourselves "without the approval of the bank" and other regulators.

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May 13, 2019, 02:53:46 PM
 #6

The situation in Venezuela with the UK refusing to repatriate Venezuelan gold also highlights the need for nations to have full control over their money. Bitcoin has advantages over gold in that it does not require physical storage and can be possessed by nations very easily. The key is having multiple highly-trusted people involved with strict oversight. I am not sure how this will be managed, but I imagine it will be similar to how nations manage nuclear codes or military secrets.
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May 13, 2019, 04:45:23 PM
 #7

It's disappointing to know that gold in the said country is manipulated and that you have to comply and needs approval from the government before it works. That's the reason why we have to be grateful that despite both crypto and gold, we're still having financial freedom at some point.


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May 13, 2019, 06:41:40 PM
 #8

I suggest that ECB is just trying to prevent capital outflow. As OP already mentioned this approval would only be needed then you make a transaction above certain amount. So you should understand that in someone is willing to send a hundred millions abroad then this process would never be easy and no matter if you are using fiat, gold or crypto. All those transactions are already under heavy control of the government.
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May 13, 2019, 07:45:52 PM
 #9

The situation with the Italian gold reserves really looks humiliating for Italy. At such moments, I understand how valuable Bitcoin is and I realize that it carries the freedom for all of us to manage our money ourselves "without the approval of the bank" and other regulators.


I wonder why they have to take control of gold if it's something that we could invest in all our lives. If they could manipulate gold, how would investors take a chance to earn a good profit through it? I agree with you. We're still lucky to have cryptocurrency as an investment.

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May 13, 2019, 08:33:16 PM
 #10

Its one of the biggest prices to pay for being part of the European Union, the EU knowing that one country's action can trigger a ripple effect within Europe can have this kind of power in order to prevent further damage. If Italy has move their gold independently without their authority various things could happen and other countries part of the EU might not like it. I do feel that we are just taking the words too literally here and Italy might have some control with their own gold in some given situations.

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May 13, 2019, 08:55:24 PM
 #11

I guess, the reason why Italy will not be able to control their gold reserves is that, just like all of the countries there are a lot of securities and regulations the people need to use as their advantages. Even though they have a bunch of golds, it doesn't mean that they can easily trade it with another countries or buyers. Everything must undergo to a due process.

In the European Union, they actually do their best to control anything or regulate each of the countries. The is the point where even a nation will not be able to control their own assets and reserves.




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May 14, 2019, 09:33:22 AM
Last edit: May 14, 2019, 12:34:11 PM by Lucius
 #12

That's one of the pain points for UK and that's whay they wanted to leave Euro zone to maintain control on their own wealth and didn't want to use that wealth to bail out poorer countries.

UK has never been part of the eurozone, they kept their national currency and it is undoubtedly a good move, especially in case of Brexit. You need to know that the eurozone and the European Union are not the same. EU is consists of 28 member states, and eurozone of 19 member states. If some country enter eurozone it means that they have no control over their monetary and fiscal policy, which ultimately means that there is no longer printing money and that country is becomes dependent on ECB.

Italy is part of EU and eurozone, and that means that they are not masters of their own destiny. Role of ECB in Italy’s national debt is significant over the years, they make some very bad decision (for Italy) in order to punish political euroskeptics in that country. This is how things works when some country renounces its sovereignty and national currency.


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May 14, 2019, 10:25:41 AM
 #13

One day most of the average joes using banks as custodian for their Gold will figure out the exact same thing.

Bitcoin gets rid of the dependence on these custodians, but people as always need to find out the hard way why Bitcoin is such a powerful tool. Losing money has always been the most effective way to get people to understand how toxic banks and governments are. Better late than never I guess. Roll Eyes

It's only a matter of time before governments will allocate a portion of their freshly printed fake money to Bitcoin in order to for once actually own sound and useful money.

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May 14, 2019, 10:59:53 AM
 #14

The euro has since its creations been a major problem for the countries in the south of Europe and been a major benefactor for Germany and some of the other northern EU countries. 
Italia and some of the other EU countries with most dept needs to leave the euro and go back to their own currency so they can start paying back their own debt.
ECB is now on a monthly basis buying debt in every EU country to keep the countries like Italy alive
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May 14, 2019, 12:10:28 PM
 #15

What is puzzling about the subject is how the banking system draws its strength from people forgetting linking money with gold and then dump society into debt in order to get a better life.
Remember to add a link to the source, I searched on Google and found the data outdated.
I thought there was a link between this news and the economic tensions between China/US and the return of alliances.

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May 14, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2019, 12:32:44 PM by LeGaulois
 #16

Its one of the biggest prices to pay for being part of the European Union, the EU knowing that one country's action can trigger a ripple effect within Europe can have this kind of power in order to prevent further damage. If Italy has move their gold independently without their authority various things could happen and other countries part of the EU might not like it. I do feel that we are just taking the words too literally here and Italy might have some control with their own gold in some given situations.

Germany was able to repatriate the gold (or at least a large part of it) to its country. The country may not be a big holder like Italy but it is a major country of the EU.

So ok guys, let's compare. Why then do we complain about banks that impose these same types of limits? We can also argue that it is to avoid the outflow, you will not be in debt, your account will be in good standing, money laundering, <insert any excuse>, etc. It is exactly the same principle not to be able to fully control your funds. Ah no, not your funds, the bank.

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May 14, 2019, 03:36:10 PM
 #17

Considering how things are set in the EU, such rules should not surprise us too much. To my knowledge some 70% of all decisions are being voted in the European Parliament, which to some extent makes sense for the big states, but not for those small countries with a small number of representatives.

To me personally makes no sense that I need to ask you what will I do with my money, but in this case with gold ECB has set a protective mechanism for some purpose.

Italy is the third country in the world by reserves of gold, but from what I read they do not want to sell gold to repay the debts which is the largest in Europe (€2300 billion in 2017). Italy has another problem related to gold, it is not clear who is the owner of gold - Bank of Italy or state.

More info :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-gold-borghi/italy-government-wont-sell-a-gram-of-gold-reserves-league-lawmaker-idUSKCN1Q20Q1
https://news.goldcore.com/ie/gold-blog/italian-debt-financial-disaster/
Bank of Italy is not the same with the State? I mean this banks is not owned by the Government?
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May 14, 2019, 04:55:00 PM
 #18

The situation with the Italian gold reserves really looks humiliating for Italy. At such moments, I understand how valuable Bitcoin is and I realize that it carries the freedom for all of us to manage our money ourselves "without the approval of the bank" and other regulators.
So there will be a chance for bitcoin to be accepted in Italy if the government realize that.
But still, it is difficult if it's related to the regulations in that country because that will need a long time before they will approve of using bitcoin in their country.
But that doesn't make sense if they cannot control and use their own asset and reserves because how they can run their economy if they cannot do that.

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May 14, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
 #19

There is nothing surprising here. All 28 states that are part of the European Union, have combined their economic resources and on the basis of this have created their money - the euro. Therefore, of course, they should have some restrictions on disposing of their gold and foreign exchange reserves. This is necessary in order for the euro to be provided with both gold and other material values ​​and does not lose its value.
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May 14, 2019, 08:49:06 PM
 #20

There is nothing surprising here. All 28 states that are part of the European Union, have combined their economic resources and on the basis of this have created their money - the euro. Therefore, of course, they should have some restrictions on disposing of their gold and foreign exchange reserves. This is necessary in order for the euro to be provided with both gold and other material values ​​and does not lose its value.

The European Central Bank is doing all it can to stop the Euro from losing its value but it is not working, today the ZEW climate index which measures the business climate in Germany disappointed compared to previous readings and this adds to the Euro losing value to the dollar which is the big rival.
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