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Author Topic: The current permaban situation is ridiculous  (Read 899 times)
Quickseller
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May 14, 2019, 06:00:11 AM
 #21

It would be helpful if the last x number of your posts of yours that were reported and marked "good" by a moderator was included in the ban message. This would help cut down on these pointless threads in which the person claims they did nothing wrong, only to be shown proof they plagiarized.

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May 14, 2019, 06:16:35 AM
 #22

If its not automated how come there was a massive 1000 ish ban at once? each case has a different context, doubt you had the time to check it out with such a short amount of time with so many bans.
Someone in the forum used a bot to find plagiarism, then reported to mods. Mods, in turn, manually checked reports, and handled each reported case hand-by-hand.

Somone's been very busy reporting copy and pasters.

The person who is reporting them should probably just be made a mod and I've suggested so in the past. Seems silly us having to verify them and handle them all. It's quite time consuming.

So someone created a working bot to detect them?

I have no idea how he spots them but he does a good job.
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May 14, 2019, 10:18:42 AM
 #23

Since the mods are busy banning over 100-200 accounts daily, it would be a tedious job to explain the reason of the ban and unlike some users who received messages of their posts being deleted, I have noticed that now users don't even receive such messages and most of them don't know the reason. They have been perm banned for posts made in 2016 and it's not possible to remember and some of these users have done this once (may or may not be "intentional" so I can understand them appealing to get to know this reason.

I can see some members were rather confused regarding plagiarism which sometimes is obvious as they are "humans" and hence it's better to provide a reference link and tell them a reason. I feel that sig-bans for users who have done this once by mistake is more appropriate as among 1-10k posts, doing this once should account for a sig ban rather than a perm-ban. It may not be done for signature campaigns or bounty campaigns as well.

It's just a suggestion but it's not feasible, then nothing can be done.




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May 14, 2019, 01:15:40 PM
 #24

There's *no fucking way* anyone that has spent here years and has 1000+ comments knows from memory every single post they made. Im sure most of these cases genuinely don't know what they are banned for.
And the type of plagiarism users are getting banned for is mostly blatant literal copy-pasta. Ban "appeals" here mostly ask one question: how did you catch me [so that I could avoid it with my other alts]? Very rarely there is any real acknowledgement of wrongdoing, lots of excuses though.
they don't have to remember every single post they made,
they just need to remember whether they ever copy-paste from other source without citing
as suchmoon pointed out, most banned users are found guilty of blatant copy paste... so there's no point in appealing

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May 14, 2019, 02:08:41 PM
 #25

If its not automated how come there was a massive 1000 ish ban at once? each case has a different context, doubt you had the time to check it out with such a short amount of time with so many bans.

Most of them are like this:

Dev sir,I support this amazing project. I think the project is a serious one with great prospects. Thanks for bringing such a great concept to the society.

Dev sir,I support this amazing project. I think the project is a serious one with great prospects. Thanks for bringing such a great concept to the society.

How much time do you suppose one needs to "check" this?

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May 14, 2019, 02:18:04 PM
 #26

If its not automated how come there was a massive 1000 ish ban at once? each case has a different context, doubt you had the time to check it out with such a short amount of time with so many bans.

Most of them are like this:

Dev sir,I support this amazing project. I think the project is a serious one with great prospects. Thanks for bringing such a great concept to the society.

Dev sir,I support this amazing project. I think the project is a serious one with great prospects. Thanks for bringing such a great concept to the society.

How much time do you suppose one needs to "check" this?


Normaly they write behind the line " Good Luck Dev " too or something like this !

Payd posters or Bots for sure !

But easy to spot .
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May 14, 2019, 02:42:37 PM
Merited by Foxpup (2), Mr. Big (2), actmyname (1), lobcmt2 (1)
 #27

If its not automated how come there was a massive 1000 ish ban at once? each case has a different context, doubt you had the time to check it out with such a short amount of time with so many bans.
Posts are reported to moderators who check out the report. If the poster needs to be banned, the moderator sends a ban report up to a global mod or admin. The global mod or admin handles all of the ban reports they get at around the same time. Either the admins or global mods don't need to check every account because they trust the moderators to have already done so, or they check quickly because every such report contains references and links to the plagiarism post and to the source text so checking takes little time.

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May 14, 2019, 03:09:05 PM
 #28

First thing is, there is reason behind of every ban. Current situation isn't ridiculous really. This is a dangerous situation for plagiarized users. Honestly peoples can't copy paste others content unconsciously and that's the reason why admin think parma ban for plagiarist user. As admin already clear that, auto-ban doesn't mean its ban by automatically. Every plagiarism checked by moderators or admin. However, those good contributor got ban they had made mistake on paste and they forgot it. That's the reason why they getting ban. 

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May 14, 2019, 04:24:58 PM
 #29

I think this is unfair and plagiarism is a streamlined word, that is, everyone speaks the same words and if these words are 100% matched then all-ban) Karma, this is a complex system and it will definitely come back and stump those who are now calling for "honesty ". You can debate forever, but the fact that people are not given a second chance is cruel .. very cruel .. and from bots it will not help (just bots have the opportunity to buy accounts and continue to earn money, but for those who really care about the forum they have to leave stupid rules without the possibility of amnesty!

You are not allowed to post anywhere outside of your ban appeal thread. There is a possibility of "amnesty", you just need to follow the rules and not get banned for ban evasion while you do it.

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May 14, 2019, 04:48:18 PM
 #30

Plagiarist hunting season has officially started and going strong...

You guys keep giving examples of well/decent established accounts getting permabanned for a weird copy/pasted shitpost that happened years ago and it got me thinking...

When they CTRL+C / CTRL+V they do this for 2 reasons:

1. get paid
2. rank up (padding their post count and getting merit)

I am aware that there was some talk about sigbans but I would also like to propose a merit ban.

Certain users that have an ok/good reputation and previously had 1 old plagiarized post (an interesting one that might be considered merit bait) could get a temp or permanent merit ban (maybe along with other forms of bans).

Not sure how much code would have to be rewritten but as these should and are handled on a case-by-case manner might be a useful tool when needed.

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May 14, 2019, 05:09:48 PM
Last edit: May 16, 2019, 04:10:11 AM by suchmoon
Merited by TMAN (5), Foxpup (2), xandry (1), johhnyUA (1), lobcmt2 (1)
 #31

I am aware that there was some talk about sigbans but I would also like to propose a merit ban.

Certain users that have an ok/good reputation and previously had 1 old plagiarized post (an interesting one that might be considered merit bait) could get a temp or permanent merit ban (maybe along with other forms of bans).

Not sure how much code would have to be rewritten but as these should and are handled on a case-by-case manner might be a useful tool when needed.

I'd be in favor of a ban that would basically turn high-rank offenders into newbies (take away merits, signature, etc) but let them keep their account and continue on the forum. Most would disappear anyway, since they're here for money only. This has been proposed is some shape or form multiple times but I wouldn't hold my breath. For now the only path is to get theymos' personal attention with a "good for the forum" appeal and get the permaban downgraded to temp+sig ban.

Update May 15: now global moderators have been given the option to do signature bans so appeals should move faster and new plagiarism cases may get temp+sig ban at their discretion without the need of appeal.

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May 14, 2019, 05:24:47 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2019, 05:41:38 PM by lobcmt2
 #32

Changes from perma-bans to long temp-bans with signature bans and demotion on accounts that won't earn required merits on the two year anniversary of merit system. I don't think demotion should aim at high earned merit requirements. 10 - 25 earned merits required to maintain ranks are enough. Then, interesting thing will happen when demoted users automatically forget about their accounts. They will automatically permanent waste their accounts into Recycle Bin, nearly the same as perma bans. After massive perma-bans and huge spendable merits destroyed, there will be harder to abuse merit system. Maybe most of airdropped merits and circulating merits from them have gone (destroyed), so a new refresh wave for forum might occur with demotion.
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May 14, 2019, 06:32:27 PM
Merited by johhnyUA (1)
 #33

I'd be in favor of a ban that would basically turn high-rank offenders into newbies (take away merits, signature, etc) but let them keep their account and continue on the forum. Most would disappear anyway, since they're here for money only. This has been proposed is some shape or form multiple times but I wouldn't hold my breath. For now the only path is to get theymos' personal attention with a "good for the forum" appeal and get the permaban downgraded to temp+sig ban.
Given that we know sig bans can be given out and are able to be mass-distributed (e.g. YoBit) I would be interested in seeing the effects of turning permbans into 1 month user ban + 1 year (or more) signature bans. This bottlenecks sig spammers as they are cut from the main incentive but provides an opportunity for genuine users to return after a cooling period. (They still deserve a punishment)

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May 15, 2019, 11:46:12 AM
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 #34

just an idea to get a bit more "silence" in the meta board.
What about to create a new board, banned -> my excuse
where the banned users are able to create one thread, no more.

maybe this also helps to also avoid getting new users for such posts.


not sure if I got the complete picture so count this as only loud thinking.

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May 15, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
 #35

just an idea to get a bit more "silence" in the meta board.
What about to create a new board, banned -> my excuse
where the banned users are able to create one thread, no more.

maybe this also helps to also avoid getting new users for such posts.


not sure if I got the complete picture so count this as only loud thinking.


I like the idea but not the name "my excuse".
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May 15, 2019, 12:23:50 PM
 #36

The current plagiarism situation is ridiculous.

Fixed that for you.

Sure, more info probably should be given but it's not very feasible right now (though I've requested changed to how bans are handled and what info is displayed but it's probably not a priority right now). An alternative is to just not plagiarise others work and then people would have nothing to worry about.

Many valuable members got banned for life and we cannot contact them again as we only talked across PM. Banned for life for what's most likely some bullshit reason done years ago which does not justify a permaban weighting in the contributions for the forum. Unless you started an expert, everyone's posting history was pretty lame at the beginning. Someone in power that wants to harm you will find something across 1000's of posts to ban you. Since they don't need to give details they can freely banhammerize anyone they please, ruining your account for life and everything that it means for the people that spent ages here.

If they're valuable then they can appeal. Globals can now issue sig bans and will be given to those who we feel are net positive.


This is most likely a tool for someone in charge to get rid of people they don't like anyway.

It really isn't. It's a tool to get rid of plagiarisers and if you haven't done that then there's nothing to worry about.

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May 15, 2019, 02:11:12 PM
 #37

I really did not want to get into this, but I do think the situation as of now is getting out of hand.
We have bots posting tons of garbage getting banned, BUT good / legit users getting a smackdown on something they did years ago. And some good users are NOT COMING BACK.

For every lovesmayfamilis that got their perma ban reduced how many people just say screw it and walk away?

The other issue is, we are all human with different opinions. Where do you draw the line on "is this plagiarism"

A post from ME just over 5 years ago:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49417.msg6582407#msg6582407

Technically everything after "Still love this error list from the old days (the 5th one down is my favorite) you could blow your hardware with bad code:" line
Are copy / paste from other sources. Was I supposed to put them in quotes? It's very obvious that it's not my work but is that worth a perma-ban? If it is I will leave quietly.

But then I should have good company as I KNOW other people who are well liked, do a lot of good for the board also have done similar.
I know of at least 2 that both have 10K+ posts and 3k+ merit that have taken a paragraph from somewhere and posted but not quoted it, more then once.
How do I know? It was my paragraph from someplace other than here.
Both are probably 3 or 4 years ago but it's there. It wan innocent at the time and it's innocent now but there has to be A LINE THAT ONCE ANYONE CROSSES IT IS THE SAME.

Picking on Vod who I both like and and has done a TON of good for the forum [way more then most other people], if he did something back in 2012 that is worthy of a plagiarism perma ban does he get it?
If he does, I hate to say it that's just stupid. If he starts TODAY and does it a few times, then fine he is outta here.

Suchmoon is another one. Do we look the other way for something small that was done in 2014? I think yes, even 2 or 3 something smalls. Too much good comes from that account. Starts today posting multiple unquoted quotes from Forbes. See ya.

But there needs to be a line that everyone can see.

Just my view.

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May 15, 2019, 02:32:44 PM
 #38

But there needs to be a line that everyone can see.

There is a line. The examples you mentioned wouldn't result in a ban (well, except where I start copy-pasting Forbes articles today, I should really get banned for that - no excuse). Your post from 2014 makes it clear that the words are not your own. I think that's enough for anyone to understand your intent there.

Bans are for blatant spammy copy-pasta. Many of those banned users have done it multiple times leaving no doubt of their intent. I'm sure moderators have a better definition of what deserves a ban but that's what I'm seeing.

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May 15, 2019, 02:39:51 PM
 #39

I really did not want to get into this, but I do think the situation as of now is getting out of hand.
We have bots posting tons of garbage getting banned, BUT good / legit users getting a smackdown on something they did years ago. And some good users are NOT COMING BACK.

Users can appeal. If we feel that they're a net positive and it was for something that happened years ago then a sig ban will likely be issued. Several have already been done today and many more will likely come.


The other issue is, we are all human with different opinions. Where do you draw the line on "is this plagiarism"

Case by case basis but 99% of plagiarism is cut and dry, but as with all mod actions we will take several factors involved and decide appropriate outcome. Everyone can't have it their own way but the rule used to be that if you plagiarised you got a permaban; now at least that has been relaxed and people can have a second chance if we feel it's appropriate. 

Picking on Vod who I both like and and has done a TON of good for the forum [way more then most other people], if he did something back in 2012 that is worthy of a plagiarism perma ban does he get it?
If he does, I hate to say it that's just stupid. If he starts TODAY and does it a few times, then fine he is outta here.

He would probably get a sig ban, but as far as I'm aware he's never monetised his signature before. Copying a paragraph or material from elsewhere should always be quoted but it's not something we would probably issue a permaban for now and is one of the reasons why I've been pushing for sig bans because not all plagiarism is equal, but there's a big difference between that and purposefully plagiarising someone else's post for profit especially when you've done it multiple times.


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May 15, 2019, 03:06:37 PM
Last edit: May 15, 2019, 03:24:31 PM by DaveF
 #40

I really did not want to get into this, but I do think the situation as of now is getting out of hand.
We have bots posting tons of garbage getting banned, BUT good / legit users getting a smackdown on something they did years ago. And some good users are NOT COMING BACK.

Users can appeal. If we feel that they're a net positive and it was for something that happened years ago then a sig ban will likely be issued. Several have already been done today and many more will likely come.


The problem is that they some are not appealing. I know 1 user IRL that just walked away.
Now there were other factors involved, but this was the final push.
*That* is part of the issue. He might be back, might not. You can now find him spending a lot of time on an ieee board.

-Dave




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