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Author Topic: Loaded Coins Do You Care Where The Funding Comes From  (Read 893 times)
DaveF
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May 22, 2019, 07:07:51 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2019, 02:51:01 AM by DaveF
 #1

Pulling a bit from what I said here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5134233.msg50736781#msg50736781


And Here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5134233.msg50705669#msg50705669


Now that this happened:
https://bestmixer.io/

Do we need to have a discussion about how people are funding coins? Or ask for at least a history of funds?
I don't know how we would do it on a P2P level, but from the larger coin makers is it worth an ask or an attempt to setup a process?

Case in point, if I was using bestmixer and used funds I mixed with them to fund a coin that I just sold to you, do you REALLY want it?
Yes, it's nice to say "whatever dude, BTC is BTC" but we know that is not true.
Something happens and you have to liquidate to fiat for some reason.
Do you really want to worry about some place be it Coinbase / Gemini / Kracken or similar asking you why you are cashing out BTC that came from a mixer that was seized by the government?

I know I don't need that in my life.

-Dave

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May 22, 2019, 07:10:58 PM
Merited by DaveF (2), BitcoinNewsMagazine (1)
 #2

Fresh coins are the best. Such a shame BTCC stopped making physicals Sad.

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May 22, 2019, 07:13:51 PM
Merited by DaveF (2)
 #3

    Great point Dave...i do care..would not want tainted btc in my wallet or loaded coins.

    Virgin and or Mint like BTCC. Would be the cleanest.

The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts.” Satoshi Nakamoto
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May 22, 2019, 07:24:14 PM
 #4

Yes fresh coins are nice.  But how many times do you receive a payment from someone in bitcoin, do you know the entire history of that coins passing?  I would be more concerned with taking payment from someone with tainted coins than having those coins sit on a funded collectable which I would probably sell before peeling if liquidating.  It's a good point though

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Heisenberg_Hunter
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May 22, 2019, 07:46:16 PM
 #5

As similar to Fiat money which changes hands quite often and we becoming the owner finally, the same does happen with btc too. But to the contrary, btc are primarily being used for illegal payment activities in dark net and as such they are being liquidated or probably mixed to become more anonymous. Old coin makers such as Casascius might have better history of coins since btc wasn't really famous back then, but with the hike in prices in late 2017 we shouldn't be really expecting a clean non-scammy coin or where they came from. Buying BTCC coins is the only alternative if you are really concerned about the history of coins/where they came from.

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May 22, 2019, 08:16:09 PM
 #6

As similar to Fiat money which changes hands quite often and we becoming the owner finally, the same does happen with btc too. But to the contrary, btc are primarily being used for illegal payment activities in dark net and as such they are being liquidated or probably mixed to become more anonymous. Old coin makers such as Casascius might have better history of coins since btc wasn't really famous back then, but with the hike in prices in late 2017 we shouldn't be really expecting a clean non-scammy coin or where they came from. Buying BTCC coins is the only alternative if you are really concerned about the history of coins/where they came from.

Yes & no.
If I decide to make a coin and fund it I can take "my BTC" that I have received from various people and places and use that to fund them.
OR
I can buy from Gemini / Coinbase / etc. and use those to load the coins.

So if something is wrong, you as the person who bought the coin and then is having issues casing it out can have some backup. KYC sucks, places that take a large cut to go fiat <-> BTC suck. If I am buying a coin loaded with 1BTC I would kind of like to be able to, in case of emergency cash it in, without grief.

Taking another step.  Many pools have their hotwallet addresses known. Going from one of them -> my address -> coin is also somewhat safe.

1CK6KHY6MHgYvmRQ4PAafKYDrg1ejbH1cE... is slush
18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX is viabtc

If you can trace back a line to them with only 1 or 2 hops it's not a bad thing either.
F2Pool doing a payout:
https://btc.com/fcf583717e88f64cd083c4d73ddfcec5958278a1a99c2507993c824da8a05a0f
If I see funding from there I know it's good.

-Dave

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May 22, 2019, 08:23:59 PM
Merited by DaveF (2), El duderino_ (1)
 #7

Or ask for at least a history of funds?

BTC like cash is fungible by design.  If I have 1 BTC in my wallet from the MTGOX hack and 12.5 BTC in my wallet from a recent block I mined then send you 1 BTC, which BTC did you get?

I mean it would be a major premium to find proven virgin coins to which I would personally probably not be willing to pay.
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May 22, 2019, 08:54:22 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1), El duderino_ (1)
 #8

Or ask for at least a history of funds?

BTC like cash is fungible by design.  If I have 1 BTC in my wallet from the MTGOX hack and 12.5 BTC in my wallet from a recent block I mined then send you 1 BTC, which BTC did you get?

I mean it would be a major premium to find proven virgin coins to which I would personally probably not be willing to pay.

Up until 18.0 the core wallet had coin control, Electrum has coin control as do others.

I don't really think we need virgin coins for ones that are loaded by us. It would be nice but that becomes more and more difficult.
Does it demand a premium, perhaps, that is up to the buyer.

But for coin makers that do funding, yes I think we as a community need to be aware that people do bad things.

Or, as the great Dr. Cox has said. People are Bastard Coated Bastards with Bastard Filling

https://youtu.be/FTbgvYPVdXE?t=31

So, yeah, if maker "A" funds with coins that can be traced straight back to antpool or wherever. But maker "B" just has a pool of BTC that they are funding coins from then perhaps maker "A" deserves more for their coin. I'm not talking $1000s more but yes, you put in some work to get cleaner coins, then yes you get a bit more for your effort.

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.
Goes back to the thread that Krogothmanhattan started that is now pinned about breached / scammed coin makers. Knowledge is power, giving people insights can't hurt.

Always be aware that we are talking REAL money and you have to be responsible and educate yourself as best you can.

-Dave



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May 22, 2019, 09:09:09 PM
Merited by gmaxwell (1), Taras (1)
 #9

It's a shame that p2pool never really caught on like I hoped it would.  That was such an easy way for anyone to get virgin coins and was never utilized for an innovative physical product.


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May 22, 2019, 09:26:24 PM
 #10

Was thinking about btc-e and the amount of coins they have tainted already.

What if you get dusted by unknown entries ?

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May 22, 2019, 11:48:48 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2019, 02:51:49 AM by DaveF
 #11

Was thinking about btc-e and the amount of coins they have tainted already.

There are tons of tainted coins, and will be tons more. You can't help it.
This is more about knowing that they might be tainted and determining a value or a harm to value.
It's nice to think that coins fresh from P2Pool are the same as coins from slush are the same as coins that came from who know where.
But in the end they might not be. Do you really want the coins from the cryptopia hack? How about the ones from the  Binance hack?

5 years from now after they have been traded 100s or 1000s of times it matters less.
But if you just stole 1000BTC think how easy it would be to come up with a nice set of coins and start loading them with the stolen BTC after running it though a mixer 1st.
By the time most people figured it out you are long gone perhaps with a larger profit if you made some money selling your coins.

I guess I just don't trust a lot of people krogothmanhattans scam / breach thread does not help.

What if you get dusted by unknown entries ?

Coin control as I said before.

-Dave

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May 23, 2019, 01:49:24 AM
 #12

Just buy loaded xmr shit and then you won’t have to worry about it. Wink

But in all seriousness, it’s a good point and proves a crucial flaw in coin traceability that allows btc not to be fungible with other btc coins.


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May 23, 2019, 07:02:39 AM
 #13

Coin control as I said before.

That is a fix to not use it but you cant get ride of it when it is a loaded coin.

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May 23, 2019, 09:11:45 AM
 #14

Something happens and you have to liquidate to fiat for some reason.
Do you really want to worry about some place be it Coinbase / Gemini / Kracken or similar asking you why you are cashing out BTC that came from a mixer that was seized by the government?
This is unavoidable, coins or not and nothing is going to happen to you. As long as services falsely see coins as tainted vs. not that is. Technologically, all Bitcoin is equal and that's how I see them. I accept any and all.

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May 23, 2019, 11:05:43 AM
 #15

To me, bitcoin is fungible. 1BTC = 1BTC.
The ones that were seized from Silk Road are tainted, however they also were auctioned by the US govt, so what about that taint ?
It went away and there is not a single satoshi from that pot that is considered "deviant" today.

It's the same as banknotes, really, except cash is not traceable. There is no way to avoid this as the quantity of BTC is finite and they are doomed to go in circles.

I am planning to release loaded Coldkeys in the very near future.
We will be funding them with some of the BTC that was received by our company as payments.

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May 23, 2019, 11:33:36 AM
 #16

To me, bitcoin is fungible. 1BTC = 1BTC.
The ones that were seized from Silk Road are tainted, however they also were auctioned by the US govt, so what about that taint ?
It went away and there is not a single satoshi from that pot that is considered "deviant" today.

It's the same as banknotes, really, except cash is not traceable. There is no way to avoid this as the quantity of BTC is finite and they are doomed to go in circles.

I am planning to release loaded Coldkeys in the very near future.
We will be funding them with some of the BTC that was received by our company as payments.

That's a good point yogg, funds traceable to silk road sales would fall in this category but they werent tainted enough to recirculate Smiley  There is no easy way to pinpoint who would be a "good guy" with tainted btc and who is really a "bad guy" with tainted money just like with good ol fiat.  That being said I wish another company would come out and sell fresh coins like btcc did.  Undecided

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May 23, 2019, 11:45:12 AM
 #17

To me, bitcoin is fungible. 1BTC = 1BTC.
The ones that were seized from Silk Road are tainted, however they also were auctioned by the US govt, so what about that taint ?
It went away and there is not a single satoshi from that pot that is considered "deviant" today.

It's the same as banknotes, really, except cash is not traceable. There is no way to avoid this as the quantity of BTC is finite and they are doomed to go in circles.

I am planning to release loaded Coldkeys in the very near future.
We will be funding them with some of the BTC that was received by our company as payments.

That's a good point yogg, funds traceable to silk road sales would fall in this category but they werent tainted enough to recirculate Smiley  There is no easy way to pinpoint who would be a "good guy" with tainted btc and who is really a "bad guy" with tainted money just like with good ol fiat.  That being said I wish another company would come out and sell fresh coins like btcc did.  Undecided

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The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts.” Satoshi Nakamoto
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May 23, 2019, 01:13:15 PM
 #18

To me, bitcoin is fungible. 1BTC = 1BTC.
The ones that were seized from Silk Road are tainted, however they also were auctioned by the US govt, so what about that taint ?
It went away and there is not a single satoshi from that pot that is considered "deviant" today.

It's the same as banknotes, really, except cash is not traceable. There is no way to avoid this as the quantity of BTC is finite and they are doomed to go in circles.

I am planning to release loaded Coldkeys in the very near future.
We will be funding them with some of the BTC that was received by our company as payments.

+1

I don't see the reason for people to truly want 'virgin coins' I don't think it makes a difference in the least if your coins were just mined, or if they have been through hacks, fraud, etc. If you weren't the one that facilitated the fraud or did anything to obtain the coins illegally, then I don't think those coins should be looked at in a different light.

This sort of discussion is like caring about where your fiat paper money comes from. Yes, your money could have been used in a drug deal, but you weren't involved in that in the slightest.




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Kryptowerk
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May 23, 2019, 01:18:47 PM
Merited by minerjones (1)
 #19

Every single piece of fiat money printed by any government in the world is tainted/dirty/traces of cocaine.... why should this be any different for bitcoin?

This.

I wouldn't care at all the source of the BTC. If we start this kind of thinking we go in compliance with all governments that are creating tainted-coin-lists and effectively hurting the BTC ecosystem.
Actually I would like to see more people start using wallets such as Wasabi wallet that have an integrated mixer to constantly shuffle their lower amounts of BTC and thus increasing its fungibility.
The more "white" BTC gets mixed, the less relevant any hacked / stolen / illegit / politically-sanctioned-donation coins etc. will make a difference.


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May 23, 2019, 03:41:23 PM
 #20

Doesn't it at least somewhat come down to what the coin creators and buyers reasonably know about the BTC when acquiring them? If they are just buying coins off of an exchange, they should have no reason to believe that their coins have any sort of issue with them. If someone took stolen coins and sold them on the exchange, and the exchange sold them to you, its not much different than going to a convenience store and getting money used for drug trafficking at some point as change. If the coin creators found a shady partner that'll give them a deal on ill-gotten coins then its a concern, but as far as I and I'd assume most others care, only one or two chains of custody matter.

As a side note, I feel like owning Silk Road coins would be pretty neat. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a premium on them, like how a dollar bill stolen by Bonnie and Clyde is probably worth more than $1.
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