Loaded Coins Do You Care Where The Funding Comes From

[krogothmanhattan]

Doesn't it at least somewhat come down to what the coin creators and buyers reasonably know about the BTC when acquiring them? If they are just buying coins off of an exchange, they should have no reason to believe that their coins have any sort of issue with them. If someone took stolen coins and sold them on the exchange, and the exchange sold them to you, its not much different than going to a convenience store and getting money used for drug trafficking at some point as change. If the coin creators found a shady partner that'll give them a deal on ill-gotten coins then its a concern, but as far as I and I'd assume most others care, only one or two chains of custody matter.

As a side note, I feel like owning Silk Road coins would be pretty neat. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a premium on them, like how a dollar bill stolen by Bonnie and Clyde is probably worth more than $1.

  Or how about a MTGox BTC coin? Historical no?

[1714945633]

1714945633

[gentlemand]

If you looked hard enough I'm sure you could trace Silk Road coins to most Casascius coins, and of course every other BTC out in the wild. It's like all of us breathing in the same atoms as Leonardo Da Vinci.

The only time I'd have cause to worry about the source of BTC is if it's direct from a theft or hack and that would hopefully be picked up by me or other buyers before it bit me on the botty. I run my Chipmixer earnings through Kraken one step from a Chipmixer vanity address. They've never said a thing.

If anyone other than the paranoid, too rich or fools starts to pay over the odds for virgin coins the party is on its way to being over. It simply cannot work like that.

[DaveF]

It's not IMO the hacked coins -> you -> someone else -> exchange -> someone else -> me that really concerns me.

It's the hacked coins -> loaded coin that I buy
or
Hacked coins -> mixer with known bad actors -> loaded coin that I buy

That concerns me.

There are tons of coins that have bad history that have been passed from person to person with no problems.
Same way there are tons of money out there with serial #s that the governments know go back to shady people.

But as I said in the 1st post. The BTC on your physical coin tends to stay there. Even now, there are addresses that have coins that are being watched.
If they move out then those addresses are going to be monitored. If they go from hacker to me to you to someone else to someone else again. The last person has some form of deniability.

But one TX from the "evil" address, if it's a place that has KYC and reules and regulations, you are going to have to explain that you bought this coin from someone on a forum way back when and now that BTC is at $100k and you want to cash out your .1 that it was not you who stole it and had been sitting on it for years.

Go get some $100 bills that are known to be directly traced back to a drug ring and put them in your bank account. Let me know how that works out for you.

Quoting myself from a few posts back:

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.

-Dave

[PassThePopcorn]

It's not IMO the hacked coins -> you -> someone else -> exchange -> someone else -> me that really concerns me.

It's the hacked coins -> loaded coin that I buy
or
Hacked coins -> mixer with known bad actors -> loaded coin that I buy

That concerns me.

There are tons of coins that have bad history that have been passed from person to person with no problems.
Same way there are tons of money out there with serial #s that the governments know go back to shady people.

But as I said in the 1st post. The BTC on your physical coin tends to stay there. Even now, there are addresses that have coins that are being watched.
If they move out then those addresses are going to be monitored. If they go from hacker to me to you to someone else to someone else again. The last person has some form of deniability.

But one TX from the "evil" address, if it's a place that has KYC and reules and regulations, you are going to have to explain that you bought this coin from someone on a forum way back when and now that BTC is at $100k and you want to cash out your .1 that it was not you who stole it and had been sitting on it for years.

Go get some $100 bills that are known to be directly traced back to a drug ring and put them in your bank account. Let me know how that works out for you.

Quoting myself from a few posts back:

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.

-Dave

Much agree.

If anyone other than the paranoid, too rich or fools starts to pay over the odds for virgin coins the party is on its way to being over. It simply cannot work like that.

To be fair when you purchase a physical coin you are paying more than the cost of the loaded BTC and cost of the coin. Would it be nice to have a physical coin that was minted from virgin coins, where the BTC was loaded either from the block generation address to the coin with only one hop back? Would it be even cooler to have it loaded directly from the coins genesis?

I'd say yes to both of the above.

[Lauda]

It's the hacked coins -> loaded coin that I buy
or
Hacked coins -> mixer with known bad actors -> loaded coin that I buy

That concerns me.

If you are concerned, then I'll take them off of your hands at a discounted rate. Problem solved?

[Flying Hellfish]

BTCC did this with their coins and chips. Mined directly to the coin's address

Some one had to "touch" the coins unless the coins contained the full mined block!  REAL virgin coins plz.

[yogg]

Some one had to "touch" the coins unless the coins contained the full mined block!  REAL virgin coins plz.

They used an unusual set of outputs for the coinbase transaction of some of the blocks mined by BTCC mint.  
As long as the total reward is the right one that is intended to be, regarding the bitcoin rules, it doesn't matter to how many addresses you send a piece of that reward.

That is indeed very cool ! Truely a virgin coin.
For example : https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/ea675dd4642a6bf1917c040198ce551647ae0638b5c66b3a3b849c2f8e70b668

There is going to be less and less of that as the block reward halvings kick in..

[gentlemand]

To be fair when you purchase a physical coin you are paying more than the cost of the loaded BTC and cost of the coin. Would it be nice to have a physical coin that was minted from virgin coins, where the BTC was loaded either from the block generation address to the coin with only one hop back? Would it be even cooler to have it loaded directly from the coins genesis?

I'd say yes to both of the above.

People seem to really like what BTCC were doing. Though I agree it's cool I wouldn't care myself and wouldn't place a premium on a coin funded that way. What would be interesting would be virgin funding from a numerically significant block. Other than that I'm not arsed. 

[Bluewaffle]

    Great point Dave...i do care..would not want tainted btc in my wallet or loaded coins.

    Virgin and or Mint like BTCC. Would be the cleanest.

I never really thought about that but it kind of confuses me its not like the satoshis them self have serial numbers i get you can follow the maybe back to when they were origianlly mined but what exactly is the difference of a satoshi that has been tossed around for years vs sats freshly mined...sorry im such a noob guys 

[Bluewaffle]

It's not IMO the hacked coins -> you -> someone else -> exchange -> someone else -> me that really concerns me.

It's the hacked coins -> loaded coin that I buy
or
Hacked coins -> mixer with known bad actors -> loaded coin that I buy

That concerns me.

There are tons of coins that have bad history that have been passed from person to person with no problems.
Same way there are tons of money out there with serial #s that the governments know go back to shady people.

But as I said in the 1st post. The BTC on your physical coin tends to stay there. Even now, there are addresses that have coins that are being watched.
If they move out then those addresses are going to be monitored. If they go from hacker to me to you to someone else to someone else again. The last person has some form of deniability.

But one TX from the "evil" address, if it's a place that has KYC and reules and regulations, you are going to have to explain that you bought this coin from someone on a forum way back when and now that BTC is at $100k and you want to cash out your .1 that it was not you who stole it and had been sitting on it for years.

Go get some $100 bills that are known to be directly traced back to a drug ring and put them in your bank account. Let me know how that works out for you.

Quoting myself from a few posts back:

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.

-Dave

Much agree.

If anyone other than the paranoid, too rich or fools starts to pay over the odds for virgin coins the party is on its way to being over. It simply cannot work like that.

To be fair when you purchase a physical coin you are paying more than the cost of the loaded BTC and cost of the coin. Would it be nice to have a physical coin that was minted from virgin coins, where the BTC was loaded either from the block generation address to the coin with only one hop back? Would it be even cooler to have it loaded directly from the coins genesis?

I'd say yes to both of the above.

BTCC did this with their coins and chips. Mined directly to the coin's address

That is pretty cool though actually mined directly to the coins address i guess you cant top that though!

[TookDk]

I personally don't think that tainted BTC will NOT be an issue in the future.
Due to the nature of blockchain tech; "coins" consist of input and output, if 1 BTC consist of 0.9999 BTC clean BTC and 0.0001 BTC tainted, then will your 1 BTC never be clean.
You cannot just separate the tainted part part and send it to trash, the output will be one 1 BTC no matter what and that output is going to a new input(s) and will always be traced back to the tainted 0.0001 BTC.

In other words, lets say some large exchange or whale is holding 10k BTC on a single addy, just send 1 satoshi of tainted BTC to this addy and the whole stack is worthless.
Or even worse, send 1 tainted satoshi to all public known collectible coin addresses... many manufactures has published the addies, so this is possible to do.

If it should ever happen that tainted BTC will be an real legal issue, then better get nice stack of XMR beforehand.

[yogg]

In other words, lets say some large exchange or whale is holding 10k BTC on a single addy, just send 1 satoshi of tainted BTC to this addy and the whole stack is worthless.
Or even worse, send 1 tainted satoshi to all public known collectible coin addresses... many manufactures has published the addies, so this is possible to do.

I don't think so.
My opinion on that matter is that, if what you explain in your example was to happen, then it would be either :

- A transaction using two inputs, a 10k BTC "clean" input, and a 1 satoshi "tainted input" and that will be publicly visible.
- Possible to use Coin Control to spend only the 10k BTC input that was received to the address, and leaving the tainted 1 satoshi sleep forever on that address.

If you did not overload a physical coin, then you should spend only the input that was produced by manufacturer.

Bitcoin Core and Electrum allow for Coin Control features.

And ... in the end ... Tim Draper doesn't complain that much about the fact, a huge stash of his coins is "Silk road" tainted.
Does an auction by the US States cleanses the bitcoin from all evil ? Pretty rad.

[klaaas]

I don't think so.
My opinion on that matter is that, if what you explain in your example was to happen, then it would be either :

- A transaction using two inputs, a 10k BTC "clean" input, and a 1 satoshi "tainted input" and that will be publicly visible.
- Possible to use Coin Control to spend only the 10k BTC input that was received to the address, and leaving the tainted 1 satoshi sleep forever on that address.

Saying you got access to the keys it will work that way but It wont work with loaded coins, once sold the tained satoshi will have a new owner.

[yogg]

Saying you got access to the keys it will work that way but It wont work with loaded coins, once sold the tained satoshi will have a new owner.

Why not ?
Yes, the tainted satoshi will have a new owner, but besides former and new owner, who knows about this tainted sat ?
The attacker, yes, but he doesn't have an idea who has the coin or where it is physically.

What the new physical bitcoin owner buys is a private key with funds associated to this private key's public address on the BTC blockchain.
So yes. They will have the loading + a tainted satoshi .. That nothing or no-one ever forces them to spend.

(And thinking about it, it would be a net loss to spend a 1sat input giving all the fees associated to multiple transaction inputs)

Don't just sweep coins.

[Bluewaffle]

    Great point Dave...i do care..would not want tainted btc in my wallet or loaded coins.

    Virgin and or Mint like BTCC. Would be the cleanest.

I never really thought about that but it kind of confuses me its not like the satoshis them self have serial numbers i get you can follow the maybe back to when they were origianlly mined but what exactly is the difference of a satoshi that has been tossed around for years vs sats freshly mined...sorry im such a noob guys 

Nothing 

Because in the end all of our dollar/paper bills/notes (satoshis) end up with cocaine on them or have least been in possession of drug dealer or other criminal......
Imagine how much less fiat there would be floating around if we just burned all the dirty bills.... loolz  (None is the right answer )

That's what i thought! lol thanks MJ your a cool ass dude man and a great member of this forum glad your here man!

[cryptodollar]

Every single piece of fiat money printed by any government in the world is tainted/dirty/traces of cocaine.... why should this be any different for bitcoin?

Ha. SO TRUE.  

    Sure, no one wants to be raided because of the thing you got that was stolen.. but IMHO, I'm more concerned that the lawnmower I got at the PAWN shop might have been yours than I am that 'one of only 21 Mil' of something came to me because altswap.com had shit security. The currency may be 'trustless' but the vendor isn't. You sell me something that brings the heat on me, expect that I'll turn over the receipt.
Aside from that daddy needs a zero-point mower!  

I'm sure never having lost anything to an exchange that's gone
under has shaped my opinion to some degree.. but:

'Don't keep your money on an exchange' is a cardinal rule after all.