[Filipino] Trust Flags

[asu]

Annoucement something changed in trust system and also there’s a new one that applied, called it Trust Flag.
🚩

Isa ngayon sa pinaguusapan sa meta ang trust flag na isang bago sa ating trust system. Nandito ang mga binago at inalis ni theymos ngayon.

Sa tingin ko na ang ilan sa mga problema sa Trust ay dahil sa tatlong magkakaibang mga layunin ay nagsiksikan sa isang sistema:
 1. Pagkuha ng isang general idea ng kung sinoman sa kanilang trade history at trustworthiness sa isang convenient na location, like mga uri ng review sa mga site tulad ng eBay.
 2. Babala newbies/guests na hindi alam kung paano mag-research nang maayos tungkol sa mga taong mataas ang risk.
 3. Pigilin ang mga susunod pang scams sa pamamagitan nang pagtingin sa mga consequences na maaari mong kaharapin (halimbawa: maaari kang “mawalan” ng isang beteranong account)
 
Upang mapabuti ito, Hinati ko sa 3 ang mga use-cases:

Use-case# 1 ay ang old trust system, ngunit ginawa ko ang mga paglalarawan sa rating types para sa pang kalahatan at inalis ang konsepto ng trust score. Ang mga numero na ngayon ay "distinct positive raters / distinct neutral raters / distinct negative raters". Dapat mong ibigay ang mga tatlong uri ng ratings na ito for anything na alam mong ito ay magbibigay alert sa kung sinoman may kagustuhan makipag trade sa taong yun, ngunit hindi mo dapat gamitin ang trust ratings to attack sa mga personal opinyon ng isang tao or sa kabilang banda pagusapan ang mga bagay bagay na kung saan hindi ito may kaugmayan sa katwiran ng prospective traders.

Use-cases 2 at 3 ay magmumula sa isang bagong sistema na flags. Maaari kang gumawa ng flag gamit ang isang link sa person’s trust page.

Ang newbie-warning flag ay magiging active if there are more people supporting such flag than opposing it.. Nagpapakita ito ng isang banner sa mga thread na sinimulan mga flagged users para sa guests at para sa mga user na may less than 7 days of login time. Para sa lahat ng mga gumagamit, isang "#" ay ipinapakita sa tabi ng kanilang mga trust scores.

Para sa contractual violations only, maaaring magawa ang isang scammer flag. Ito ay ang tanging bagay na kung saan nagiging sanhi ng "Warning: trade with extreme caution" warning to return. Pinupukaw din nito ang isang banner na katulad ng banner ng babala ng newbie na makikita ng lahat ng mga gumagamit. Ang isang scammer flag ay nangangailangan ng 3 karagdagang pagsuporta sa mga users than opposing users to become active.

Ang bagong scammer flag ay dapat gawin sa iba’t ibang pinaghihinalaang incidente. Sa ngalan ng pagpapatawad/pagtubos, mawawala ang scammer flags sa loob ng 3 taon pagkatapos ng incidente kapag ang kontrata ay nagpapahiwatig, at 10 taon pagkatapos ng incidente kung ang kontrata ay isinulat. Itong pagtatapos ng kontrata ay maaring baguhin ng admin.

Ang paggawa o pagsuporta ng scammer flag ay aktibo at apirmadong grupo ng klarong fact-statements. Kapag ang isang tao ay nagpakita ng suporta sa isang flag na mayroong maling fact-statements, ito ay malinaw na abuso, tatanggalin ko agad sa DT ang mga DT members na gumawa neto. Ang ibang tao naman na namali ng suporta, kahit nagkamali lang, ay mabubura rin.

Ang mga user sa iyong trust network ay macocount bilang supporting o opposing flags.
Para sa mga guest, ang default trust network ay magagamit.

Karagdagang pagbabago:
-  Lahat ng trust page ng mga user ay ginawa nang madami ang page upang hindi na maging sobrang malawak ang isang page.
- Ang pagka-arrange nang feedback ay ngayon parehas sa ibang parte nang forum/section.
- Tinanggal na ang “Risked BTC.”

Ang iba pang pagbabago:
- Kapag ang numero ng pre-flags-system negative trust ratings ay mas mataas pa kesa sa lahat ng numero ng positive trust ratings, ang isang warning banner ang makikita para sa guests & mababang-login-time ng mga newbie.
- Isa pa sa dinagdag ko ay "These warning banners will disappear when you have 7 days of login time. You should familiarize yourself with the trust system before then." para sa newbie na warning banner. Tandaan na ito ay kadalasang inaabot ng lagpas ng isang buwan para sa isang tao upang makakuha ng 7 araw ng oras ng pag-login among all 4096 users with 6.5 to 7.5 days login time, the account age (lastLogin-dateRegistered) is: maximum 3216 days, minimum 7.5, median 677, average 936.
- Ang pages ng makikita mo bago mo pindutin ang "next" ay lumaki na ngayon.

Trust Flags by theymos

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[asu]

FAQs about Trust Flag gathered by hd49728

It's the end of Trust Tags Relate to Opinion Conflicts

You should give these ratings for anything which you think would impact someone's willingness to trade with the person, but you should not use trust ratings to attack a person's opinions or otherwise talk about things which would not be relevant to reasonable prospective traders.

Flags can not be deleted

I am wondering will users be able to remove a scammer flag early in the spirit of forgiveness. Do users in your trust network automatically support flags or do they need to take action?

The original accuser can withdraw their support, but they can't delete the flag. So other users could take it up even if they withdraw.

Flags need to be actively supported.

Here's a user with a flag that you could support/oppose:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=157669
And if you log out or use a newbie account, you can see the banner on their topic:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2690003.0

Can we use a community thread for flagging potential scammers? I ask because it says you can create 1 thread if you tag flag many users, or can this be a simple thread that states I flag people for these reasons and leave it at that.

Yes, but make sure that if someone goes there, it's clear what the flag is about.


Scammer flags should usually each have distinct topics.

Existing ratings are not automatically converted into Flags

How are the existing ratings converted into the new flags?

They're not. I decided that too many negative ratings aren't flag-worthy, and there's no way to automatically determine it. If you believe that a past negative rating is flag-worthy, you'll need to create a flag.

Everyone can create flag, but there are limitations

Can everyone create a flag? I have seen add flag option in users profile. Does this have any affect by DT member? Or everyone can create flag and if get support, it will be active.

Anyone can create them, but support/opposition is only counted from people in your trust network. So if a newbie creates one, probably it will not be active from anyone's perspective, and it will thus have no effect unless it gets additional support from others.

These limits are in place:
 - Per 180 days, you can only give 1 flag of each type to a given user. So you can't give someone multiple written-contract-violation flags in 180 days, for example.
 - Globally, per year you can only create 1 flag per activity point you have, but at least 1/year.

A case study on Active and Inactive Flag

Here someone created a contract-violation flag:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=9
Since that's clearly a test account, feel free to support it or oppose it as a test.

Note that right now it's only linked in a small note on the target user's trust page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626817
And listed on their inactive-flags page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626817;page=iflags
And shown as an entry in the sender's sent ratings:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626816;page=sent

If it gets enough support, it will no longer be listed in "inactive flags", and will instead move to "active flags".

So if I understand this correctly, when I create a contract violation flag I'm counted as the first supporter and I'll need two more if I want someone to have "trade with extreme caution".

Correct.

You can create both a newbie-warning and contract-violation flag if you want.

Just to confirm, you are not allowed to create a contract violation flag unless you were personally harmed, correct?

Correct.

The first Active Scammer Flag

SafeDice has the honor of being the first to get an active scammer flag: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=396610

How is support/opposition to a flag displayed? Are those who are in my trust network always shown in larger font and first, and those outside of my trust network in smaller font and second, and then sorted by UID after determining if a person is in/out of my trust network?

Right, except that they're sorted by activity.

Don't over-create Flag

Can I also create a scammer flag for alt-accounts of the contract violator? Example: BetKing.io violated a contract, but BetKing Support, dean nolan and PocketRocketsCasino are his alt-accounts.

Yes, one of the victims can.

I gather that if someone creates a flag and I support the flag, the person does not need to have scammed me as well, I just have to believe the evidence the flagger presented.

Correct.

Also, if exchange xyz makes an exit scam, is that considered one incident that can only be flagged once? Or can each victim make their own flag?

It's probably best if one of the victims makes a flag and the rest support it.

Changes in display of Trust in Profile page


Two types of flag:
What is difference between newsilike (Yellow Flag Box) and SafeDice (Red Flag Box). They both get active flags, but one is in yellow flag, and another one is in red flag.


Answer:
- Yellow Flag Box: Newbie-Warning Flag
- Red Flag Box: Scammer Flag

A yellow box is used if someone creates a newbie-warning flag, which on the "Add flag" page reads as follows: Due to various concrete red flags, I believe that anyone dealing with this user has a high risk of losing money. (This flag will only be shown to guests/newbies.)

A red box is used if someone creates a scammer warning flag, which on the "Add flag" page reads as follows: This user violated a casual or implied agreement with me, resulting in damages. or This user violated a written contract with me, resulting in damages.

Your trust ratings are irrelevant to the displaying or coloring of the flags.
 .....
If someone has an active yellow colored newbie warning flag, they will display a # next to their trust scores and a warning box to all guests and newly registered (under 7 days logged in time) users.
If someone has an active red colored scammer warning flag, they will display a !!! next to their trust scores and a warning box to all users.

Newbie-warning flag

A newbie-warning flag is active if there are more people supporting such a flag than opposing it. It shows a banner on topics started by the flagged user for guests and for users with less than 7 days of login time. For all users, a "#" is shown next to their trust scores.

For example:
Active Newbie-warning Flag



Scammer Flag

For contractual violations only, a scammer flag can be created. This is the only thing which causes the "Warning: trade with extreme caution" warning to return. It also triggers a banner similar to the newbie-warning banner which is visible to all users. A scammer flag requires 3 more supporting users than opposing users to become active.

For example:
Active Scammer Flag




Text Format inside Flag Box

Need confirmations from theymos.

Guide:

As I mentioned in the flags topic, there are three very separate scopes for trust which need to be kept separate. For scammer flags, the point is to damage the person's forum existence in order to deter future scamming. This is a very serious action which should have a very high bar. Because it's so serious, I only want actual agreements considered here. In legal systems, there's additionally such a thing as tort law and statutory law, but the forum is very far from having the kind of cohesive legal system which could handle such things in a halfway-reasonable way. The only thing that approaches clear-cut scamming is violation of an agreement. If non-contractual offenses are allowed in the scammer-flag space, then we're going to get factions of forum users constantly fighting each other, which is exactly what I'm trying to stop. I'm sick and tired of big escalations and never-ending feuds over highly-subjective and/or relatively minor things.

For non-agreement issues, use a newbie-warning flag and give them a negative trust rating. These actions are in the different scopes of warning newbies or informing other users of your opinions, which have less severe consequences and therefore lower bars.

I hate having to "defend" BSV and BCH, which were created with deception in mind, are technologically bankrupt, and are run by huge assholes, but you can't say that their supporters broke a contract with you when they didn't. Give them a newbie-warning flag if you want, but not a contract-violation flag unless they actually broke a contract with you. (Note that you might have a case for breach of implied contract if you were actually tricked into buying one of these coins instead of BTC.)

2. Questions and  one bug (found by @isasenko, I already tested it myself).
Meaning of smaller font size, italic font style, and grey color of supporters?

Someone said it relates to DT member or not DT member supports, but when I flagged myself (here), my name in Support list normally displayed, not in smaller fontsize, italic fontstyle, or in grey color.

Potential explanations (need confirmations from theymos):

Normal font is displayed for users who are on your own personal trust list. Small, italic, grey font is for users who are not on your own personal trust list. If you do not have a personal trust list, then default trust is used. You will always appear as normal to yourself.

Bug
User can flag his or herself, that's weird, and should be disabled.

I can put a flag on my own account. This should be disabled as before.

I tested it myself and can actually do it.

3. Community suggestions
1.

I think the code of trust score should be Bolded on the profile to be more effective

2. Let me be the first to start a bitching thread about the flags
There are suggestions on design of Warning Icons, that should have same colors as of Flag Box:
- Yellow Icons for Newbie-Warning Flag.
- Red Icons for Scammer Flag.

3. @theymos [Suggestion] New Flags Section

[spadormie]

Karagdagang pagbabago:
-  Lahat ng trust page ng mga user ay ginawa nang madami ang page upang hindi na maging sobrang malawak ang isang page.
-  
- Tinanggal na ang “Risked BTC.”

Kapatid kulang dito ng isa. Gustohin ko mang itranslate to ang problema di ko alam yung ibig sabihin ni Theymos dito.   

- The ordering of sent feedback is now consistent with the other sections.

[asu]

Karagdagang pagbabago:
-  Lahat ng trust page ng mga user ay ginawa nang madami ang page upang hindi na maging sobrang malawak ang isang page.
-  
- Tinanggal na ang “Risked BTC.”

Kapatid kulang dito ng isa. Gustohin ko mang itranslate to ang problema di ko alam yung ibig sabihin ni Theymos dito.   

- The ordering of sent feedback is now consistent with the other sections.

Thank you for pointing that out! Antok lang ako medyo kaya diko napansin.

UPDATED

[singlebit]

Maaari kayang makasali ang iba na may orange number sa dulong kanan? example:    +0 / =0 / -2? wala ng "Warning:Trade with Extreme Caution" eligible pa kaya ito maka sali ng mga campaign gaya ng tulad ko na biktima lamang ng maling paratang ng iba?.

[asu]

Maaari kayang makasali ang iba na may orange number sa dulong kanan? example:    +0 / =0 / -2? wala ng "Warning:Trade with Extreme Caution" eligible pa kaya ito maka sali ng mga campaign gaya ng tulad ko na biktima lamang ng maling paratang ng iba?.

I can’t really answer your question

But, one think I knew only campaign/bounty manager ay ang maaring makasagot neto and maghintay na lamang tayo sa mga maaring may pagbabago sa mga rules ng signature campaign.

Still that orange +0 / =0 / -2 ay considered na isang red trust pa din na nanggaling sa DT member.

Rules of 2 reputable campaign manager about negative feedback

Hhampuz

Do not have any legitimate negative feedback from any DT member. Receiving negative feedback during your stay could lead to your termination from the campaign without payment or notice.

- I can say Hhampuz might consider your account if the negative feedback given to you is not that legitimate.


yahoo62278

If you receive neg trust while enrolled you receive no pay and will be removed

- I don’t think yahoo will consider you, but if there’s some changes in his rules then you can try.

[theyoungmillionaire]

Maaari kayang makasali ang iba na may orange number sa dulong kanan? example:    +0 / =0 / -2? wala ng "Warning:Trade with Extreme Caution" eligible pa kaya ito maka sali ng mga campaign gaya ng tulad ko na...

Still a negative (-) feedback, karamihan sa mga campaign manager ay pinagbabawal talaga ito kahit na nagbago na ang trust system ngayun. Merong iba naman na consider ang ganitong bagay as long as alam nila na hindi naman to legitimate negative feedback, which is nasa decision na nila yun kung talagang tama nga ba ang paratang sayo or hindi.

biktima lamang ng maling paratang ng iba?.

Kung isa ka talagang biktima, pwede ka naman gumawa nang isang apila (topic) sa reputation section na nagpapatunay na mali ang kanilang paratang, I'm sure they will check naman your apila at kung ikaw ay tama sa claim mo pwede nilang tanggalin ito. Alam naman nang DTs ang tama at mali, karamihan sa kanila ay mga responsible community members, sigurado ako titimbangin nila ang sitwasyun nang tama at nauukol.

Ginagawa lang naman nila ito para maiwasan ang pag-cheat or any bad stuff na makaka-apekto sa mga tao at mga community members as a whole. Sigurado ako pinag-isipan muna ito nang matagal bago i-implement sa ating lahat. Some people may think panget ito at merong mga tao naman na sang-ayun sa ganitong systema, human nature, hindi mo ma-peplease lahat nang tao, kahit anung gawin mong tama ang makikita lang nang mga tao in the end is the rule you break or the bad things you have done. However, with this kind of new system pwedeng i-double check nang mga DTs ang mga dati nilang feedbacks kung tama nga ba ito or hindi, kung baga magkakaroon nang double checking ngayun kung sang-ayun nga ba ang mga DTs sa flag na naibigay or ibibigay nung isang DT member sa isang suspected scammer. More responsibility ngayun ang nasa balikat nang mga DTs.

Dapat maging more vigilant tayo ngayun sa mga ganitong bagay lalo na sa ganitong mga panahon na tumataas ang bitcoin, maraming gustong sumabay na mga scammer sa paligid at ito ay nagiging dahilan nang pagkalugi nang ating mga kababayan, nagkakaroon din ito nang negative effect towards bitcoin, iniisip nila na scam agad ito dahil sa mga taong naka-experienced nang pang-iiscam. It is not just DT members responsibility kundi bilang nakikinabang sa forum na ito ay responsibilidad mo din ito. You are earning from this forum, right? Gawin mo nang tama para ma-sustain ang income mo sa forum na ito, kahit nga mga staff ay napapalitan sa forum na ito pag hindi na siya effective or efficient, ikaw pa kaya na isang community member at umaasa lang sa signature campaign. Kaya be responsible on making our community a better place.

[asu]

Everything is Updated.

Meron lamang ilang pagbabago na idinagdag si theymos sa bagong Trust System and if may katanungan kayo about sa bagong system nato just feel free to ask and I’ll try to answer it.

New changes can found here and I added it to OP also.


And for you @singlebit

Since most bounty activity in a bounty I manage is done OFF the forum I allow users with neg rep to join. Nothing they do is supposed to be done on the forum period. They fill out a google form for all their work. (not managing any bounties currently) I also do not allow a bounty company to run a signature campaign for tokens.

Now as far as btc paying campaigns go, this will be handled on a case by case basis. It's not hard to look at a users trust and see what they have been tagged for. So, depending on the reasoning, users with neg rep will possibly have a chance to join campaigns. (Kinda gonna be a longshot due to what happened when Hhampuz allowed QS to join a campaign and look at the DRAMA that ensued.)

I bolded the most parts of yahoo says that can answer you. Just try to understand it hella

[finaleshot2016]

biktima lamang ng maling paratang ng iba?.

~

5 Accounts Connected: singlebit...
~blah blah....

Ayokong maging judgemental pero based sa quoted post, nahuli kang gumagamit ng multiple accounts sa pagsali sa bounty. Imposible rin na nagkamali lang ng lagay sapagkat ang bawat address ay may unique na characters at imposibleng magkaparehas parehas. Ayon nga sa sinabi ni @theyoungmillionaire, kung ikaw ay biktima lang dito pwede kang gumawa ng thread na magpapatunay na inosente ka at hindi kabilang dito.

At siguraduhing mayroon ka nito;

• Eligible proof
• Confident sa sarili na hindi ka talaga abuser

ngunit sa iyong kaso ay mahirap ata. Uso na kasi ang mga bounty abuser na gumagamit ng same address kaya kapag nakitaan ka ng ganito, paparatangan ka na gumagamit ka ng multiple account.

[spadormie]

-snip-

Ang problem dito finaleshot2016, kapag may nag tag sayo ng red at sinabing abuser ka kunware or kahit ano pang rason, di ka naman papakinggan nung mga DT na yan eh. Maraming cases na ganyan. Ang unang verdict is the final verdict. Di na mababago. I'm interested on dramas kase on meta and reputation threads and yun lang yung naoobserve ko. 

[mirakal]

-snip-

Ang problem dito finaleshot2016, kapag may nag tag sayo ng red at sinabing abuser ka kunware or kahit ano pang rason, di ka naman papakinggan nung mga DT na yan eh. Maraming cases na ganyan. Ang unang verdict is the final verdict. Di na mababago. I'm interested on dramas kase on meta and reputation threads and yun lang yung naoobserve ko. 

I guess that depends on how you explain everything, if you can still remember the case of   wwzsocki, he got caught for using alts and abuse of merit, this is the thread title [need DT] using multiple account, trading merit, self-talking, trading trust, and based on what I read in the thread, the evidence are clearly pointing there is a violation, but wwzsocki never stop explaining until the reg tag was removed.

So, I guess some DT members judgement are not also fair. (correct me if I'm wrong), I like to hear some of your thoughts on this.

[SushiMonster]

Andami na nag bago sa forum na 'to at mabuti na parang gumaganda ang ating local board. Nais ko din maging parte talaga sa pag gawa ng mga quality post.

Yung mga trust flags pala ay parang contract na sasabihin mo talaga na naniniwala ka na scammer to at mag vovote yung mga members para matingnan kung tama talaga at valid. Ang galing din ng naisip ni theymos no? Sobrang galing din ng mga ideas para sa forum at sana maging continuous lang yung improvement.

[mirakal]

Andami na nag bago sa forum na 'to at mabuti na parang gumaganda ang ating local board. Nais ko din maging parte talaga sa pag gawa ng mga quality post.

Yung mga trust flags pala ay parang contract na sasabihin mo talaga na naniniwala ka na scammer to at mag vovote yung mga members para matingnan kung tama talaga at valid. Ang galing din ng naisip ni theymos no? Sobrang galing din ng mga ideas para sa forum at sana maging continuous lang yung improvement.

Yeah, that was really a good changes since trust system abuse will be minimize, with the new system, you need to have more DT's to agree with you before you that flag will reflect, meaning, those accounts that committed an offense that are not too serious, will be safe from this, but then again, that still depends on how the DT will evaluate, sometimes they are also bias as they are just humans and when judgment are not based on forum rules, that would result to a bias judgment.

[wwzsocki]

I guess that depends on how you explain everything, if you can still remember the case of  wwzsocki, he got caught for using alts and abuse of merit, this is the thread title [need DT] using multiple account, trading merit, self-talking, trading trust, and based on what I read in the thread, the evidence are clearly pointing there is a violation, but wwzsocki never stop explaining until the reg tag was removed.
So, I guess some DT members judgement are not also fair. (correct me if I'm wrong), I like to hear some of your thoughts on this.

They never proved beyond any doubt that this is my alt account (because it isn't) and the second accusation about merits abuse was not valid also, because one can give merits to any post he likes and there should be no red paint for this, especially for something less as selling merits, as Theymos has written in his post. Additionally, I awarded equal amounts of merits, to many other members and asked this second account, to not send merits, to me. All proves are published in the accusation thread.

I don't think you have read this accusation thread against me completely because there are all explanations inside.
If this second account was my alt and DT1 prove that beyond any doubt, believe me, this red paint would stay for very long.
I have added to my trust annotations almost 2 years ago, that we know each other and are related. That is why accusation for an alt account had to fail.

But you have some right. If one gets caught, the best way to get your trust back or even to get another punishment is to answer all accusations with full honesty and keep calm.
Even if they accuse you of something, which never happened and they are wrong, keep calm and don't attack anybody or the trust system. Even if they will throw a stinky shit on you and say something, which is totally not true, one has to keep his nerves on hold. Sometimes it is done for the purpose, to make angry or even mad and lose his composure, which is the most important thing. The only thing one can do in such a situation is to explain everything and tell the truth in a very calm way, even repeat multiple times this same if needed.

If one is guilty and start to lie when trying to explain, then he will be caught in a minute and there will be no second chance.

PS
Sorry, that I used the English language in your local board, but I don't know your native language and Google translate messed my text after translation that I couldn't understand it.

[asu]

Bump

Para sa mga bumabalik na member dito na hindi na updated sa forum at sa mga newbie/newcomer.

Recently, nagbago na ang trust system at ito ay yung trust flags na nasa OP ang mga ibig detalye nito.

New feedback

Type:

• Positive - You think that this person is unlikely to scam anyone.
• Neutral - Other comments.
• Negative - You think that trading with this person is high-risk. You might also be able to add a flag.

At isa na din ang pagbibigay ng feedback sa nabago.