[2019-06-15] IRS turning its attention to recreational bitcoin investors

[bbc.reporter]

This is what the IRS does very well. Making criminals of innocent people like you.

In any case, this is also what Monero, Aeon and Grin will do best. Helping innocent people hide from people who want to make criminals out of you hehehe.



The Internal Revenue Service has a message it wants to get out to recreational bitcoin investors who think they can dodge taxes on their cryptocurrency gains — it knows what’s going on, and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.

Gary Alford, the IRS special agent who gained national attention for helping solve the Silk Road online drug trafficking case that led to the 2013 arrest of kingpin Ross Ulbricht, spoke at a panel in New York hosted by global accounting firm EisnerAmper about the tax consequences of cryptocurrencies. Now a cyber-crime coordinator for the IRS, Alford said his agency is ready to start moving past sensational money laundering cases and into more routine enforcements of tax law involving cryptocurrencies.

Speaking from a seat in front of a luxurious fireplace at the Columbus Citizens Foundation townhouse on Manhattan’s Upper East Side, Alford said:

“We’re usually behind the curve — history is made and then we react to it. But in this case, we are ahead of the curve. We were there on ground zero, and we were waiting for the rest of the world to catch up to what we already knew… We already are aware that there were cases to be made, we just didn’t know if we were at the point where we can bring it for criminal prosecution. We believe we are at that point now. If we had 12 jurors and told them someone made all their money in bitcoin, we believe that they would understand.”

Read in full https://www.forbes.com/sites/hanktucker/2019/06/13/irs-agent-who-took-down-silk-road-turns-his-attention-to-recreational-bitcoin-investors/amp/

[figmentofmyass]

when it rains, it pours. the SEC is putting the screws to altcoin exchanges, FATF is pushing for not only mandatory KYC but transaction reporting > $1000, and now the IRS is coming after "recreational bitcoin investors"? as a USA resident, this a rude awakening.

apparently they are also publishing new tax guidance this month or next:

Alford, EisnerAmper tax partner Walter Pagano and moderator Dara Albright, a digital finance consultant, clarified existing regulations and discussed what the IRS still needs to resolve when it releases new guidance for cryptocurrencies in late June or July.

[o_e_l_e_o]

The US already have some of the most ridiculous crypto related tax laws in the world, requiring every single trade, even trades between coins which have nothing to do with USD, to be classed as a taxable event. If the IRS genuinely starts pulling up average folks on this, very few people are going to be able to provide all the details they want - a complete history of all deposits, buys, trades, sells, and withdrawals, what volumes, at what prices, etc. Any coins earned from ICOs, airdrops, faucets, campaigns, etc., all need to be fully accounted for as well.

The US government is very much leading the charge globally on clamping down on individual freedoms. If it affects their tax revenue, it's in their sights.

[Lucius]

I'm not a trader and I'm not from the US, but it's hard to imagine that someone can keep such records especially if it trades on a daily basis. I do not question the payment of taxes, but such regulations seem to me more than just tax collection, it seems more like placing unpredictable obstacles in order to discourage those who in any way earn from cryptocurrency.

Considering influence of USA on many countries, it is possible that some other countries will also take over part of their regulations, the only question is whether they do it voluntarily or under pressure.

[Vishnu.Reang]

I'm not a trader and I'm not from the US, but it's hard to imagine that someone can keep such records especially if it trades on a daily basis. I do not question the payment of taxes, but such regulations seem to me more than just tax collection, it seems more like placing unpredictable obstacles in order to discourage those who in any way earn from cryptocurrency.

Considering influence of USA on many countries, it is possible that some other countries will also take over part of their regulations, the only question is whether they do it voluntarily or under pressure.

Well.. knowing how pesky the IRS can get, I would advice everyone to pay the taxes which are due on any trade from cryptocurrency. It is not that difficult to get the data on daily trade from the exchanges. And even better, some of the exchanges would even calculate the tax liability for you. I am not a big fan of paying taxes... but a confrontation is not something that we need right now.

[1Referee]

Well.. knowing how pesky the IRS can get, I would advice everyone to pay the taxes which are due on any trade from cryptocurrency. It is not that difficult to get the data on daily trade from the exchanges. And even better, some of the exchanges would even calculate the tax liability for you. I am not a big fan of paying taxes... but a confrontation is not something that we need right now.

Agreed. If you're using a centralized exchange and make gains, then definitely make sure to pay due taxes because it's not worth it to later have the IRS point you at it (and when they point you at it they don't do it in a friendly manner).

I have a speculative stack of ~10% and a hodl stack of ~90%. My hodl stack hasn't touched an exchange in years and won't be doing so in the forthcoming years. I'm not going to pay one single penny in tax over my hodl stack. My speculative stack is where I do pay tax over the gains and whatnot. It sucks, but there is nothing that can be done against it as long as you keep speculating on centralized exchanges.

[buwaytress]

It's really strange to see these developments while at the same time the various states are also making it in the news on the other end of the spectrum. Rhode Island I think I saw yesterday and then today Nebraska putting out all their blockchain-friendly laws. I can't really see how the states can encourage on one end while the fed government on the other tried to shutter. One day they'll be going after Bitcoin nodes.

[gentlemand]

What does your level of recreationalness have to do with the amount of tax you're supposed to cough up?

You can be luxurious, fur lined and casual and still run up a trillion dollar tax bill. Just because you did it while watching TV at the same time does not make it magically invisible.

[BitHodler]

One day they'll be going after Bitcoin nodes.

I think that may be playing a role when either LN gets integrated in full node clients, or features similar to coinjoin. They need a reason to attack nodes, and right now I'm happy to say that they don't have it yet.

US based users have always been hit harder than users from most other countries and that on several fronts, especially those in New York. The regulations businesses are subject to to serve users in New York is just retarded.

I hope this will stimulate to have more exchanges format and calculate what people owe in tax. Most users don't seem to have much experience with tax reports so there is a high probability that they mess up somewhere.

[squatter]

I think that may be playing a role when either LN gets integrated in full node clients, or features similar to coinjoin. They need a reason to attack nodes, and right now I'm happy to say that they don't have it yet.

What kind of attack are we talking about? I would be very surprised if there weren't government adversaries on the network, for the same reason they run TOR exit nodes. They're sniffing for network data like IP addresses to accompany their blockchain analysis efforts. They're working to identify our wallet clusters. The IRS is very interested in identifying our wallets, I'm sure.

[BitHodler]

What kind of attack are we talking about? I would be very surprised if there weren't government adversaries on the network, for the same reason they run TOR exit nodes. They're sniffing for network data like IP addresses to accompany their blockchain analysis efforts. They're working to identify our wallet clusters. The IRS is very interested in identifying our wallets, I'm sure.

Attack as in making it illegal to run a node. It could be on a corporate level where datacenters are no longer allowed to have their clients run them, or on a level where ISPs are cutting off nodes of you and me at home.

And yes, I'm sure there are a wide variety of agencies sniffing around in the network to gather information about money flows, who and where nodes, etc. They probably have been here longer than most people know about Bitcoin.

[bbc.reporter]

Well.. knowing how pesky the IRS can get, I would advice everyone to pay the taxes which are due on any trade from cryptocurrency. It is not that difficult to get the data on daily trade from the exchanges. And even better, some of the exchanges would even calculate the tax liability for you. I am not a big fan of paying taxes... but a confrontation is not something that we need right now.

Agreed. If you're using a centralized exchange and make gains, then definitely make sure to pay due taxes because it's not worth it to later have the IRS point you at it (and when they point you at it they don't do it in a friendly manner).

I have a speculative stack of ~10% and a hodl stack of ~90%. My hodl stack hasn't touched an exchange in years and won't be doing so in the forthcoming years. I'm not going to pay one single penny in tax over my hodl stack. My speculative stack is where I do pay tax over the gains and whatnot. It sucks, but there is nothing that can be done against it as long as you keep speculating on centralized exchanges.

Make gains on what, however. In bitcoins? America does not have a law defining what bitcoin really is. Is it a commodity or a currency?

In any case, this would be one of the reasons to use anonymous coins. Tax evasion hehehe.

[Wayan_Pedjeng]

What does your level of recreationalness have to do with the amount of tax you're supposed to cough up?

You can be luxurious, fur lined and casual and still run up a trillion dollar tax bill. Just because you did it while watching TV at the same time does not make it magically invisible.

You are right, but I think that the OP is hinting that the IRS is going after the small fish while ignoring the whales.

But I agree with you. Tax liabilities don't change whether you are doing crypto-trading for a hobby, or whether you are doing it as a part of your career. Enough loopholes are available in the tax policies, to reduce the amount of taxes that you need to pay. But saying that crypto-trading was your hobby and it was not serious is not a valid excuse.

[1Referee]

Make gains on what, however. In bitcoins? America does not have a law defining what bitcoin really is. Is it a commodity or a currency?

In any case, this would be one of the reasons to use anonymous coins. Tax evasion hehehe.

Trading profits, virtual gains, etc.

It doesn't matter what Bitcoin 'really' is, what matters is that you can always fit it in the appropriate section of your tax form. I used to use the alternative section for that, but now they specifically mention crypto by referring to it as digital currencies like Bitcoin, which is pretty neat. This causes less confusion and makes it clearer as to what section you should select.

I can buy a pair of stinky socks for x amount and sell them for y amount and still be subject to taxation. Anything is pretty much subject to taxation unless stated otherwise.

[buwaytress]

What kind of attack are we talking about? I would be very surprised if there weren't government adversaries on the network, for the same reason they run TOR exit nodes. They're sniffing for network data like IP addresses to accompany their blockchain analysis efforts. They're working to identify our wallet clusters. The IRS is very interested in identifying our wallets, I'm sure.

Attack as in making it illegal to run a node. It could be on a corporate level where datacenters are no longer allowed to have their clients run them, or on a level where ISPs are cutting off nodes of you and me at home.

And yes, I'm sure there are a wide variety of agencies sniffing around in the network to gather information about money flows, who and where nodes, etc. They probably have been here longer than most people know about Bitcoin.

Yeah, by the time we hear about the news, it'll be too late. These guys control the release of information and awareness of their activities. Make no mistake, they want us to know about what they're doing when they want us to know.

As soon as they understand more about Bitcoin, they'll get on that sort of work underway. They probably still want to get their hooks in deep now, so won't make running nodes illegal just yet. Once they're sure they can kill it, or even takeover them, you can be sure they'll try.

[pixie85]

At times like this I'm so happy that I don't live in the US.

and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.

This looks like a hint that they are still trying to set up the surveillance and those who didn't pay their crypto taxes in the last 10 years are fine

If I were a US trader I'd start packing before they get comfortable with tracing transactions and wallets and connecting them with names.

[squatter]

At times like this I'm so happy that I don't live in the US.

and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.

This looks like a hint that they are still trying to set up the surveillance and those who didn't pay their crypto taxes in the last 10 years are fine

If I were a US trader I'd start packing before they get comfortable with tracing transactions and wallets and connecting them with names.

There's probably still lots of lower hanging fruit they can go after. Proving cases with wallet analysis and non-KYC services is going to be much more challenging in a jury trial than Coinbase users who made 5-7 figure profits trading over years and never paid their taxes. From the statistics the IRS released about Bitcoin capital gain reporting vs. the number of high volume Coinbase users, there are lots of people relying on the notion that the IRS won't audit them.

[Theb]

I do consider this just a friendly reminder fo their U.S. citizens planning to invest in the crypto industry as from what I recall they already have some control in wallets and exchanges like Coimbase and Binance in the country. I have read news before that the crypto exchanges do submit “random” trade transactions from their citizens as well as alert them when a certain threshold has been hit. This may look like a bad news but taxes are taxes and we do have to pay them, we might as well pay them before some crazy regulation happens.

[o_e_l_e_o]

There's probably still lots of lower hanging fruit they can go after. Proving cases with wallet analysis and non-KYC services is going to be much more challenging in a jury trial than Coinbase users who made 5-7 figure profits trading over years and never paid their taxes. From the statistics the IRS released about Bitcoin capital gain reporting vs. the number of high volume Coinbase users, there are lots of people relying on the notion that the IRS won't audit them.

We've known this was coming for a while now. Last year, Coinbase handed over to the IRS the details of 13,000 USA users who were holding greater than $20,000 in assets on the exchange. The IRS had initially demanded the details of almost half a million users, but Coinbase challenged it in court and the final number affect was around 13,000. Anyone who thought the IRS were just going to accept that defeat and move on was living in a fantasy land.

If you have completed KYC procedures on Coinbase (or any other major exchange for that matter), expect that sooner or later your details are going to passed to your government. If you haven't been paying your taxes, now is the time to rectify that before they come knocking on your door, so to speak.

[bbc.reporter]

Make gains on what, however. In bitcoins? America does not have a law defining what bitcoin really is. Is it a commodity or a currency?

In any case, this would be one of the reasons to use anonymous coins. Tax evasion hehehe.

Trading profits, virtual gains, etc.

It doesn't matter what Bitcoin 'really' is, what matters is that you can always fit it in the appropriate section of your tax form. I used to use the alternative section for that, but now they specifically mention crypto by referring to it as digital currencies like Bitcoin, which is pretty neat. This causes less confusion and makes it clearer as to what section you should select.

I can buy a pair of stinky socks for x amount and sell them for y amount and still be subject to taxation. Anything is pretty much subject to taxation unless stated otherwise.

What gains? There are no gains until you sell any cryptocoin for fiat later. Does the American government tax people for paper gains from holding stocks. I reckon no government does, but correct me.

Also, will they give tax breaks to people who lost money in the cryptospace hehehe?