Do we need 1 more datapoint for trust in trades (and only trades)?

[DaveF]

I know I have said this before but it kind of got buried.

Now this forum is not eBay, it's not Amazon or anything else like that but there are a lot of people doing a lot of trades for a lot of things. We can either as a group try to help them or as a group wash our hands of it and say do your own research. But as of now it's a mess IMO and not getting better.

So quoting from my own threads and taking from some others now that we have flags:

Merit = Are they good posters? Help out people? Useful to the board? This does not matter much in terms of trading BTC or hardware or collectibles you *can* help out a lot but still be a crook.

Trust = Can you trust them with money / items / etc. However, there are a lot of people with trust that have never really bought or sold things.

Feedback = Do you really want to deal with them. Because even if the 1st 2 are good you might still want to avoid.

The problem as I said someplace else is when you click on trust you get feedback on things that may or may not make them trustworthy.

With flags it is in theory going to make it better but for now it's making it a bigger mess because anyone can tag anyone else even if you have had no dealings with them.

So what I was thinking was something that another forum had when dealing with this. It was just a good trade count + or - and it only showed up in the swap meet sections.

To leave a comment you *had to have* bought or sold something or had some kind of financial deal with the other person. NO OTHER THINGS MATTERED. This was 100% about if you sent the user DaveF money did DaveF ship what he was suppressed to in the condition it was supposed to be in, or do what he was supposed to do in the way he said he was going to do it and in the time-frame it was to be done in? If anything else happened it went as a comment in general feedback. NOT IN THE TRADE TRUST.

Or to put it as the forum owner put it.
If you send Bob $200 to tune up your bike and he came to your house and tuned up your bike then he gets positive trade trust.
If while he was there he has sex with your wife IT DOES NOT MATTER. That has nothing to do with trade trust. That is a feedback issue.

We seem to have the same issue here. I REALLY DON'T CARE if Bob is promoting scam coin X or an ICO or YoBit SPAM. If I sent Bob 1BTC and he sent me $9000 cash as agreed everything else is not important in the trade area.

Yes? No? Am I just rambling?

Only brought this up because I was looking to do a trade with someone with horrible trust here, but as near as I can tell never ripped anyone off. Didn't do it for another reason, but now they might not sell what they want to sell because of other factors that have nothing to do with handling BTC

-Dave

[1715050673]

1715050673

[LoyceV]

If I sent Bob 1BTC and he sent me $9000 cash as agreed everything else is not important in the trade area.

Yes? No? Am I just rambling?

Only brought this up because I was looking to do a trade with someone with horrible trust here, but as near as I can tell never ripped anyone off. Didn't do it for another reason, but now they might not sell what they want to sell because of other factors that have nothing to do with handling BTC

I'll give an example:
bill gator (Trust: +14 / =1 / -9) (525 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
And while talking about holding 0.1BTC for 10 months this gets posted:

I can't speak for anyone else, but i'd trust you enough to run a round bill

Bill recently got many red tags because he bought the account in 2015. I could understand a neutral tag, or some may even defend a red tag even though it has been many years, but the total of 9 red tags from DT is disproportional. For comparison: this guy stole more than 16 Bitcoin, and got only 8 tags.
Right after the tags, bill repaid a 0.2 BTC no collateral loan.

Can you share who you had in mind?

[DaveF]

Can you share who you had in mind?

Something VERY basic.
If you are in any of the subforums that allow trading / buying / selling / loaning (or viewing a profile) there is another line below your other info that has trade trust.
It's a # starts a 0 and goes up or down from there. Next to it is a number with the total number of people who have left trade trust.

To give a + or - to someone you MUST have done an exchange with them for something. BTC / fiat / hardware / service / whatever.
If it goes well they get a +1 if it goes poorly they get a -1 or you can leave a 0

If you are outside the trading areas this number is not seen unless you are looking at the profile.
This is important--> If you leave a trade trust that user and did not deal with this person then you get a x day ban. If you do it again you get a perma ban. This means that even if I hate you and you torment me we can't trade trust each other into oblivion.

Now, people are going to say "wait, this means scammers can now just farm accounts and build up trade trust"

Nope, now that we have flags anyone can flag and show why not to trust the user. But that all it is, a flag, you can't say Bob will rip you off if never had a dealing with Bob.
All the flags are saying is be careful it looks like Bob *might* rip you off. As of now with the trust settings it looks more like a WILL.

It also eliminates the DT1 & DT2 drama.

Take a look at my trust.
As of now at the default settings going 2 deep I'm at +14, if you look at the untrusted feedback I would probably be in the 40s (to lazy to actually count)
But there are some things in there have have NOTHING to do with trades between myself and that person but if you look quickly it will add to my "trust in your mind" count but has nothing to do with a deal. So it should not be counted. Trade trust takes care of that.


-Dave

[Steamtyme]

~snip~
bill gator (Trust: +14 / =1 / -9) (525 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
And while talking about holding 0.1BTC for 10 months this gets posted:

I can't speak for anyone else, but i'd trust you enough to run a round bill

~snip~

Oh no I've been made an example of. 

I wouldn't be against a system directly realated to trading, but worry it would make what has become a somewhat complex system for people to wrap their heads around harder to understand. I originally opposed using feedback for the "great guy" " asset to the forum" and various other pat on the back positive ratings people received, not near as much as I opposed the negative "personal" feedbacks people would leave. I've always been a big fan of Neutral, and am glad to see it has a placeholder now for it's tallies. That's where I think all of the non trade related account notes belong.

Your system could be implemented into the current system with the same penalties, though the forum tends to shy away from punitive measures until absolutely necessary. The wording has changed where it is more open to opinion, but it should still center around a solid belief on facts what side of likely to scam they fall on. Personally I'm okay with seeing where things fall, but guidelines for the old system like the ones given for the new system would be refreshing. Might help force people to end squabbling over minute issues or personal grievances they use to grasp at straws to label people in a negative light.

Positive - You think that this person is unlikely to scam anyone.
    Neutral - Other comments.
    Negative - You think that trading with this person is high-risk. You might also be able to add a flag.

[DaveF]

Bumping this after more then a month because I just had it happen again.
Crap trust person (big neg number), most of it due to promoting signature scams, the yobit spam mess from a few months ago, and generally being a jerk.
Nothing to do with buying / selling.

I hate to have to keep looping back to it. But you can be an ass, you can be a spammer, and you can be idiot.
That does not mean you are going to rip people off.

One of the biggest assholes I know IRL is also the most honest.
Would buy / sell / trade stuff with him and not worry at all.
There is not enough money on the planet for me to want to hang out with him outside of business dealings.

-Dave

[TECSHARE]

I think this is to a large degree what Theymos was attempting to do with the most recent trust system updates. I completely agree that the trust system's goal is to help people prevent being duped by frauds, so it should be a totally trade based system, but a lot of people gained influence in other ways here who resist such an arrangement. I think the new system is an improvement but still could be better.