Universal Basic Income

[Cnut237]

What does everyone think about the idea of a Universal Basic Income?

It is gaining popularity on both sides of the political spectrum, and there are increasing numbers of live trials of the system.

The concern is that the next wave of automation will create a new class of effectively unemployable people, and that as this continues some system will need to be in place to support citizens. Waves of automation in the past have simply created new jobs in different spheres. The industrial revolution cut agricultural jobs but created factory jobs. The development of computers over the last few decades has hit manufacturing jobs but replaced them with new opportunities in the service sector. The problem is that as AI starts to take hold, many of these jobs will go as well. It used to be the case that there were always jobs that computers couldn't do, but in the future this will rarely be the case.

Universal Basic Income also removes some disincentives to work, and what is called the 'welfare trap', whereby the resulting cuts to benefits due to new part-time work can make it economically preferable to not take part-time jobs.

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.

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[BICBOYBBRO]

The amount of work needed by humans has been going down since the machine age. You cannot deny they amount of losses in jobs coming.

1. Self driving cars = 4-5% of the entire work force out of work
2. Self flipping hamburgers (fully automated kitchens) = 5-6% of the entire work force out of work

As we get more and more advanced the "work" force needed by humans will get less and less and less. (jobs are endless, work is not)
There is assembly lines of just robots in factories today taking 1000`s of human jobs away.

So how do we create a UBI system? that is not created out of debt by the tax payers?
We need to make a new system that is not a debt biased economy like the current one we have.

The universal job is to vote, but the politicians have stolen that job from us the people.
Why not vote yourself instead of voting people to vote for you and pay yourself?

Watch this guys video, he talks about how everyone can create the money supply and how everyone can vote to create a UBI that does not cost the tax payers anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TLFyK_3Pk (he also talks about the end of bitcoin, which everyone seems to brush under the carpet)

Start collecting UBI today www.bitswift.cash and 4 altcoins for free.

All the worlds money systems in the past have failed and new ones were created (1000`s of civilizations wiped out), Today we keep pumping fiat into the market to simulate the market this will not just lead to a monetary system failure but the collapse of our species if we keep doing it, This bubble is bigger than any other bubble ever created in human history thanks to the FED, wallstreet and Fiat. You people have no clue what shit storm lays ahead of you and how each second that passes by it just gets more and more inflated. There fast growing job is streamers and youtubers these people are no producing any real value, they are not making food. Prepare yourselves today for the biggest economic crash in history is on its way.

Enjoy it while it last because there will be massive riots in the streets the police will have no chance against the masses. They will come rip you out of your mansion, yachts, bunkers and literally eat your faces off.

[BADecker]

^^^ People are still here, in spite of the past. So, if all the world's money systems failed in the past, there must be something that works that is not a money system. Otherwise people would be gone, too. Could it be barter?

[BICBOYBBRO]

^^^ People are still here, in spite of the past. So, if all the world's money systems failed in the past, there must be something that works that is not a money system. Otherwise people would be gone, too. Could it be barter?

They have never experience a depression like the 2030`s depression that is about to happen. Yes all of the world`s money systems have failed look at history, there is not one that has not.
It is a Jenga tower they have built, one bad season of no rain or to much rain and all of the crops are dead and the world enters the dark ages again. One massive earthquake, one meteor, one polar shift, one big tsunami and everything is gone. There is no safety net on these types of problems we face. There could be if they used 1% of the military funding to start making backup houses,power, food and water for the working class.

How will you barter when there is 10,000`s that will group up and just take your shit, You won`t. It is not going to be like any other depression in history pal. Prepare yourself, buy some nice drones and attach some guns to them so you can shoot people off your property from the comfort for your living room, You will be living in that living room for a long time, I don`t think you can prepare your drone with enough ammo to defend for what is coming.

[tvbcof]

...

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.

It's a fundamental element of 'technocracy' with an energy-denominated monetary system.  Looks now like they will call it 'carbon credits.'  With 5G the system on-line (and a global calamity of some nature) 'technocracy' can be switched on.

Don't get your hopes of for a taxation system which touches 'the rich'.  This is the group which is pushing the system.  Technocracy with it's UBI will be feudalism and there won't be as many 'lords' as there were back in the day.  Probably only one.

[BADecker]

^^^ People are still here, in spite of the past. So, if all the world's money systems failed in the past, there must be something that works that is not a money system. Otherwise people would be gone, too. Could it be barter?

They have never experience a depression like the 2030`s depression that is about to happen. Yes all of the world`s money systems have failed look at history, there is not one that has not.
It is a Jenga tower they have built, one bad season of no rain or to much rain and all of the crops are dead and the world enters the dark ages again. One massive earthquake, one meteor, one polar shift, one big tsunami and everything is gone. There is no safety net on these types of problems we face. There could be if they used 1% of the military funding to start making backup houses,power, food and water for the working class.

How will you barter when there is 10,000`s that will group up and just take your shit, You won`t. It is not going to be like any other depression in history pal. Prepare yourself, buy some nice drones and attach some guns to them so you can shoot people off your property from the comfort for your living room, You will be living in that living room for a long time, I don`t think you can prepare your drone with enough ammo to defend for what is coming.

Nobody will NOT be part of a 10,000... just to fight off the other 10,000s. It's the people among each 10,000 that will barter among themselves.

Of course people will die while others live. Western Europe and the whole Western Hemisphere have relative peace, especially when compared with places like Pakistan. So the live/die thing is happening right now.

[BADecker]

...

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.

It's a fundamental element of 'technocracy' with an energy-denominated monetary system.  Looks now like they will call it 'carbon credits.'  With 5G the system on-line (and a global calamity of some nature) 'technocracy' can be switched on.

Don't get your hopes of for a taxation system which touches 'the rich'.  This is the group which is pushing the system.  Technocracy with it's UBI will be feudalism and there won't be as many 'lords' as there were back in the day.  Probably only one.

Any taxes on the rich are simply passed on in the form of higher prices to us peons.

[BICBOYBBRO]

^^^ People are still here, in spite of the past. So, if all the world's money systems failed in the past, there must be something that works that is not a money system. Otherwise people would be gone, too. Could it be barter?

They have never experience a depression like the 2030`s depression that is about to happen. Yes all of the world`s money systems have failed look at history, there is not one that has not.
It is a Jenga tower they have built, one bad season of no rain or to much rain and all of the crops are dead and the world enters the dark ages again. One massive earthquake, one meteor, one polar shift, one big tsunami and everything is gone. There is no safety net on these types of problems we face. There could be if they used 1% of the military funding to start making backup houses,power, food and water for the working class.

How will you barter when there is 10,000`s that will group up and just take your shit, You won`t. It is not going to be like any other depression in history pal. Prepare yourself, buy some nice drones and attach some guns to them so you can shoot people off your property from the comfort for your living room, You will be living in that living room for a long time, I don`t think you can prepare your drone with enough ammo to defend for what is coming.

Nobody will NOT be part of a 10,000... just to fight off the other 10,000s. It's the people among each 10,000 that will barter among themselves.

Of course people will die while others live. Western Europe and the whole Western Hemisphere have relative peace, especially when compared with places like Pakistan. So the live/die thing is happening right now.

They could just make a legit currency that is not a scam and no one has to die, later they will realize they don`t even need currency but a fair one to start would be legit.

The Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

ok so let`s do it ourselves?

Any taxes on the rich are simply passed on in the form of higher prices to us peons.

Also yes, we the peons "something need doing? work work"  

[BADecker]

They could just make a legit currency that is not a scam and no one has to die, later they will realize they don`t even need currency but a fair one to start would be legit.

The Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

ok so let`s do it ourselves?

Any taxes on the rich are simply passed on in the form of higher prices to us peons.

Also yes, we the peons "something need doing? work work"  

You need to realize that the government doesn't do anything to people... not in the USA, that is. If it seems that government is doing it, it is really government PEOPLE doing it.

There are two ways another man/woman harms you. These are actual harm/property-damage, and direct threat.

If there is a law that has been passed, and it threatens you, take the people who passed it to court for threatening you. Forget their government office. Get the name of the man/woman, and file a claim against them in court. Do it with the guaranteed jury trial... guaranteed by the 6th and 7th Amendments.

Before you do this, get a bunch of your friends together, and sign limited rights of attorney with them, so that if you are tossed into jail by some corrupt politician who has power, that your friends can file the paperwork into court for you. And get them to make the same kind of claim against the same government jokers as you do... with more of their friends having limited power of attorney contracts with them.


Since most people forego this freedom they have, they don't have any other method except for the vote to remove corrupt politicians from government. But they also don't have authority to form mobs - demonstrations - and physically do something about their problem. Why not? They haven't exhausted their legal remedy by using the 6th or 7th Amendment against the man/woman who harmed or threatened them by enacting a law.

[TECSHARE]

UBI turns the citizenry from the parent of the state to the ward of the state. It is designed to strip nations of independence and rights among other economic dumpster fires.

[BADecker]

^^^ But it will be good for Bitcoin. Fiat will collapse under such a system. Bitcoin will remain in use among the freedom-loving entrepreneurs. So the starving masses - who will have quit working because of free income - will move over to the Bitcoin side, just to have an easier way to get food than bartering. The early adopters will become filthy rich as masses realize that they have to work to survive.

UBI is a really neat idea for us Bitcoiners, even though many people will die because of it.

[Indamuck]

We have enough resources for everyone its just that greedy people at the top like to hoard.  UBI is a natural progression towards an advanced society.  Remember if wealth inequality gets too far out of hand the wealthy will be exposed to the very real threat of revolution.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start again making all those dollars worthless.

[BADecker]

We have enough resources for everyone its just that greedy people at the top like to hoard.  UBI is a natural progression towards an advanced society.  Remember if wealth inequality gets too far out of hand the wealthy will be exposed to the very real threat of revolution.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start again making all those dollars worthless.

For average people, reasonable agony increases intelligence. The agony of having to fight for survival by earning money increases IQ. UBI stifles agony for a while, by making it easy for all people to live without feeling the agony so much. They are shuffled into IQ-reducing complacency by UBI.

Those few who always have a burr under their saddle, and are ambitious and intelligent, have the chance to take control when UBI drops the IQ of most average people. UBI gives us a whole new world slavery pattern because of this.

[Naida_BR]

We have enough resources for everyone its just that greedy people at the top like to hoard.  UBI is a natural progression towards an advanced society.  Remember if wealth inequality gets too far out of hand the wealthy will be exposed to the very real threat of revolution.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start again making all those dollars worthless.

A rational point is the revolution you refer to.
But there are a lot of other strategies that rich people follow in order to make poor people unable to act. For example, in many latin countries there is a lot of poverty but still there is not any revolution because the rich know how to handle them.

[Astargath]

We have enough resources for everyone its just that greedy people at the top like to hoard.  UBI is a natural progression towards an advanced society.  Remember if wealth inequality gets too far out of hand the wealthy will be exposed to the very real threat of revolution.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start again making all those dollars worthless.

I don't know, we have resources for everyone but is everyone willing to work just as hard? Are you willing to work in construction? Are you willing to wipe shit? Why should someone that is not willing to work at all get a basic income at all? It's not too clear to me.

[Sagecity]

What does everyone think about the idea of a Universal Basic Income?

It is gaining popularity on both sides of the political spectrum, and there are increasing numbers of live trials of the system.

The concern is that the next wave of automation will create a new class of effectively unemployable people, and that as this continues some system will need to be in place to support citizens. Waves of automation in the past have simply created new jobs in different spheres. The industrial revolution cut agricultural jobs but created factory jobs. The development of computers over the last few decades has hit manufacturing jobs but replaced them with new opportunities in the service sector. The problem is that as AI starts to take hold, many of these jobs will go as well. It used to be the case that there were always jobs that computers couldn't do, but in the future this will rarely be the case.

Universal Basic Income also removes some disincentives to work, and what is called the 'welfare trap', whereby the resulting cuts to benefits due to new part-time work can make it economically preferable to not take part-time jobs.

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.

Personally, I think universal basic income is inevitable but I'm not fully aligned with your conclusions around the "welfare trap". The younger generations are already positioning themselves more as designers (engineers, coders etc) so I think the real challenge is for the older generations. The first jobs to go will be manual labour jobs like driving or stacking shelves and I think many will be glad to stop these and begin receiving UBI.

For many people, they don't work for money exclusively, they work for money to be able to pay for their necessities (food,shelter,clothing etc). I think its very difficult for people to understand the concept of free money and I could see some kind of indirect form of UBI in which necessities are provided. It's easier from a physcological perspective to invent and introduce technologies and concepts which cover these costs than re-invent the monetary system.

And finally, If we do achieve some kind of UBI, The beauty of the system (if implemented well) means that it doesn't matter what people do with their time. I think many people will sit for a few months chilling on netflix and playing the xbox but the human mind (without always realising it) craves meaning. I believe many people will follow passions they were forced to give up like art or music because they were unable to make a career out of it. For those more innovation driven, working on worldwide problems like disease, famine, renewable systems and potentially as far as lightspeed travel. I think that until we take care of our basic human needs, only then can we truly reach our potential as humans and push the boundaries of what we know and understand.

If anyone reading wants an interesting book related to this, i found bulls**t jobs by david graeber to be really useful.

[BADecker]

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

[dudewhere]

What does everyone think about the idea of a Universal Basic Income?

It is gaining popularity on both sides of the political spectrum, and there are increasing numbers of live trials of the system.

The concern is that the next wave of automation will create a new class of effectively unemployable people, and that as this continues some system will need to be in place to support citizens. Waves of automation in the past have simply created new jobs in different spheres. The industrial revolution cut agricultural jobs but created factory jobs. The development of computers over the last few decades has hit manufacturing jobs but replaced them with new opportunities in the service sector. The problem is that as AI starts to take hold, many of these jobs will go as well. It used to be the case that there were always jobs that computers couldn't do, but in the future this will rarely be the case.

Universal Basic Income also removes some disincentives to work, and what is called the 'welfare trap', whereby the resulting cuts to benefits due to new part-time work can make it economically preferable to not take part-time jobs.

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.

My personal opinion is that as the work-force dwindles the government will as-a-result collect less taxes. Not only less income tax but almost all others as-well. If I do not work then I cannot pay for vehicle registration, fishing license, property taxes...etc. The government will notice that and as a result as time progresses, the older/outdated work-force dies off; with that same progression of time what is being taught in our schools will change to reflect the change in society, resulting in a cancellation effect. We most likely will not be alive when this problem exists, we will have been replaced by a society that has been taught(trained) to function in this new world gradually over time. Therefor your theoretical problem will not exist. Criticism on my thoughts is welcomed

[iamhungry]

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

[BADecker]

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

Isn't your honor worth more than money to you?