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Author Topic: The Rogue Wave  (Read 1631 times)
Wind_FURY
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July 02, 2019, 05:47:59 AM
 #21

Posted as an impartial messenger, which means don’t presume I agree with the choice of wording or even the points made. Nevertheless the forum benefits from hearing all sides of an argument.


How many "messengers" does he have? Hahaha.

Quote from: shelby

Plus I'm very confident nothing of what you campaign for and FUD, about will happen because it would be more profitable to continue on if the miners remain honest.

You seem to not understand after all that I wrote and explained, that Core is the dishonest scam that lied to all of you. And the miners will be honest by protecting Bitcoin’s immutability and thus its only means of having any value after this scam.

You guys who perpetuate the lie are the dishonest scammers.


That's your opinion.

Quote

It’s analogous to Hellary Clinton claiming that Trump is dishonest. The scammer is claiming the honest one is the dishonest one.

Try to wrap your limited mind around this. I doubt you can. And that is why democracy sucks, because fools can be manipulated.


Ok, then name the developers that you want to take over. Because that's the problem, none are as competent as the Core developers.

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July 02, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
 #22

This guy is a crackpot. His bizarre conspiracy theories should be contained to one thread. As you know, there is already a thread dedicated to his Alex Jonesesque theories as well as those of the BSV'ers.

Let's keep the lunatic fringe all in one place rather than polluting Speculation with new threads about altcoins overtaking Bitcoin. Thanks in advance.
"   

Another one of Craig Wright like weirdos. This is the problem with Crypto today and has been always. Sometimes its so anonymous, some secrets are just never decypherable. And that gives rise to conspiracy theorists and fraudsters.
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July 03, 2019, 06:07:53 AM
 #23

This guy is a crackpot. His bizarre conspiracy theories should be contained to one thread. As you know, there is already a thread dedicated to his Alex Jonesesque theories as well as those of the BSV'ers.

Let's keep the lunatic fringe all in one place rather than polluting Speculation with new threads about altcoins overtaking Bitcoin. Thanks in advance.
"   

Another one of Craig Wright like weirdos. This is the problem with Crypto today and has been always. Sometimes its so anonymous, some secrets are just never decypherable. And that gives rise to conspiracy theorists and fraudsters.

No, I believe he belongs to a group of believers of the one "Real Bitcoin", the "immaculate" Bitcoin that Satoshi created. They run modified pre-Core nodes that sync with the network.

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July 06, 2019, 07:06:30 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2019, 07:07:47 AM by Traxo
 #24

Forwarding as an impartial messenger.

Quote from: Shelby

It was Satoshi's fault Segwit was compatible with Bitcoin's protocol rules.

We discussed that in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

Satoshi (actually the global elite) outsmarted you. SegWit is compatible with the protocol, but incompatible with a Nash equilibrium, because a huge “anyone can spend” booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC). The miners must take it and incentive all miners to partake, otherwise an inexorable ongoing donation attack threat will loom like a dark cloud over the Core BitcOn (possibly with numerous failed donation attack forks causing ongoing chaos in the market place). Because politics is not a Schelling point (because inexorable “debt” (abstractly misdirected trajectory combined with “promises”) achieved with lies pandering to infinite wishes, desires, and wants — is not sustainable).

You ostensibly lack the intellect to assimilate all of this. This has been spoon fed to you numerous times already. So I am not going to explain it again with careful detail. Interested individuals should re-read all the prior discussion.

Remember I am perfectly happy if no one listens to me. My role is only to make sure the public has been warned.

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July 06, 2019, 09:38:07 PM
 #25

Quote from: Shelby
It was Satoshi's fault Segwit was compatible with Bitcoin's protocol rules.

We discussed that in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

Satoshi (actually the global elite) outsmarted you. SegWit is compatible with the protocol, but incompatible with a Nash equilibrium, because a huge “anyone can spend” booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC).

Actually, Satoshi very clearly intended for new transaction types to be implemented exactly as Segwit was: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/bitcointalk/126/

You just don't understand the game theory involved. You keep falsely asserting the most rational decision miners can make is to hard fork away from the majority of the network. You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this as a rational move. You perpetually fail to account for the lack of market value of the miner's fork. 6 million hard forked shitcoins valued at $0 is still $0.

The only people economically interested in this conspiracy theory are the miners stealing Segwit outputs. There are no other Bitcoin users who rationally, for economic reasons, would fork their software. Thus, you have not demonstrated why there would be any market demand for your shitcoin.

So you have Mircea Popescu, the colluding miners engaging in mass theft, and a few Aspergers-laden retards like yourself. That sure sounds like a network that will see mass/institutional adoption! We're all right behind you! Roll Eyes

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have completely misinterpreted the source of Bitcoin's value. It is derived from its network. You can't have a network with hundreds of users and no economic activity and have it retain any value.

It's just going to be like the last D&D game you played with your ragtag band of retard friends in your Mom's basement. No one will fucking notice you or care that you exist. Network data shows the network won't even notice you left. You would just be forking yourselves off the network into irrelevance.

Quote from: Shelby
The miners must take it and incentive all miners to partake, otherwise an inexorable ongoing donation attack threat will loom like a dark cloud over the Core BitcOn (possibly with numerous failed donation attack forks causing ongoing chaos in the market place).

"The miners must take it" =  LOL. No, because rational miners won't sacrifice a profitable Bitcoin mining operation for an incredibly risky and likely unprofitable shitcoin mining operation.

You neglect to account for the fact that your branch is an incompatible hard fork to virtually the entire Bitcoin network, and certainly to all economically relevant actors. You present zero evidence that economically relevant actors would support your fork. Please stop acting like the market will treat the mining rewards on your fork as "BTC." That's patently false and you know it. Just like Bitcoin Cash, your incompatible hard fork will be ignored by the market and treated like an altcoin.

Quote from: Shelby
Interested individuals should re-read all the prior discussion.

They certainly should. It's obvious you keep neglecting to address the massive holes in your ridiculous theory, which have been pointed out repeatedly. You merely keep repeating your claims ad nauseum with an attitude of authority, as if that's a respectable debate method. You are incredibly dishonest intellectually.

Quote from: Shelby
Remember I am perfectly happy if no one listens to me.

Good because that's already the position you occupy.......

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July 08, 2019, 03:03:46 PM
Last edit: July 08, 2019, 06:30:02 PM by Traxo
 #26

Forwarding as an impartial messenger.


Quote from: Shelby


Quote from: Shelby
It was Satoshi's fault Segwit was compatible with Bitcoin's protocol rules.

We discussed that in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

Satoshi (actually the global elite) outsmarted you. SegWit is compatible with the protocol, but incompatible with a Nash equilibrium, because a huge “anyone can spend” booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC).

Actually, Satoshi very clearly intended for new transaction types to be implemented exactly as Segwit was: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/bitcointalk/126/

I repeat again that we already discussed that and I rebuked your misunderstanding of what Satoshi wrote per the link you cited.

Go read again my (as relayed by @jbreher) rebuttal of @figmentofmyass’s quote of Satoshi, by clicking the following link:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5147618.msg51388201#msg51388201

Let me further quote Satoshi Nakamoto from the link you provided:

The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime […]

I don't believe a second, compatible implementation of Bitcoin will ever be a good idea.  So much of the design depends on all nodes getting exactly identical results in lockstep that a second implementation would be a menace to the network.  The MIT license is compatible with all other licenses and commercial uses, so there is no need to rewrite it from a licensing standpoint.

Satoshi (who is actually the think tank of the global elite who run this world behind the curtain) provided in Bitcoin’s protocol for a political consensus “soft fork” to be attempted, but clearly understood it would not be a good idea. The reason it’s not a good idea is for the reason I have already explained numerous times to you in my prior posts. Specifically that it creates a huge “anyone can spend” donations booty which miners must take, as the only way to restore the Nash equilibrium. A Nash equilibrium is in this context a game theory that forces miners to mine on only one longest chain and thus that makes Bitcoin a reliable store-of-value. The Core BitcOn-job temporary dissolves the Nash equilibrium while the booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC in SegWit UTXO ready for donating to the miners when they’re sufficiently incentivized and ready to start spending the booty to themselves when they win a block).

Political consensus is not a stable Schelling point because it has no fundamental value and no single-best, one-and-only Nash equilibrium (whereas multiple Nash equilibriums is the antithesis of what a Nash equilibrium means, i.e. the miners and token hodlers must have one strategy that is always best, not multiple choice chaos). The economic opportunity cost of the 6+ million BTC booty is a fundamental value. And only immutability of Satoshi’s “v0.1” protocol provides the unforgeable costliness (i.e. not innumerable forks) that gives Bitcoin unique, rare, hardcapped money supply. Political consensus is never assured and stable (i.e. it is only an ephemeral illusion), because it changes with the political wind. Political consensus is a power vacuum (i.e. not a stable value) that the fundamental economic opportunity cost must manipulate and capture. Fools like you do not understand fundamental economics nor the fundamental nature of political-economics. Again I will refer you to the writings of a man with a 160 I.Q. (i.e. 4 SD) and the comments of his numerous 3 and 4 SD I.Q. commentators:

Some Iron Laws of Political Economics

The global elite are rounding all of you sheepeople into a corral for harvesting. Lol. They have this planned out. I explained in the Long-term advance notice! thread that the global elite financed Blockstream to hoist this Core SegWit scam, so they can fleece all the BTC of minions and idiots before they prepare to back Facebook’s 666 Libra currency with Bitcoin, thus making Bitcoin a world reserve currency that the uber elite control and own. You fucktards and your worthless network of nodes and exchanges are not needed at all. The global elite can create everything they need. The only point of this exercise has been to hoist the 666 system on the world in a clever, surreptitious (but in plain sight because people are stoopid), and insidious way so that you idiots would actually rally, cheer, and support your enslavement. Lol. Sheepeople such as all of you who are commenting in this thread, are fucking hilariously stoopid.



You just don't understand the game theory involved.

An idiot who doesn’t comprehend game theory trying to claim I do not understand the game theory involved. Lol.

If you doubt whether the miners have the concentrated resources to enforce the donations of the 6 million BTC (and growing)  “anyone can spend” booty, I suggest you re-read what @jbreher wrote as quoted in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

When BTC is say $50,000 in May 2020 at the halving (the approximate date when Craig is ostensibly promising to initiate the donations taking) and assuming that SegWit booty has grown to perhaps 8 million BTC by then, that will be $400 billion in value with which to finance monopolizing all ASIC production. You fucking sheepeople idiots and your worthless networks of worthless nodes and worthless exchanges are irrelevant. Money (economics) talks, BS (talk, cheerleading, politics, and other hot air) walks.

You keep falsely asserting the most rational decision miners can make is to hard fork away from the majority of the network. You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this as a rational move. You perpetually fail to account for the lack of market value of the miner's fork. 6 million hard forked shitcoins valued at $0 is still $0.

Masturbation does not procreate. Politics does not create value. Power vacuums have no value and are merely for the taking by those who actually possess the power to take them against all others who might attempt to take. This is the definition of a power vacuum. A SegWit booty is a power vacuum.

Abstractly I already cited for you well respected research that explains that nodes in a network are worthless without valuable connections between, i.e. the economically relative nodes are those that the global elite provide because they control most of the BTC and the outcomes. It is the relative value of valuable connections between nodes that impart value to the whole network. We can essentially remove 99% of the nodes and most of the value is retained, because most nodes do not have valuable interconnections. The analogous logic can be applied to network effects also.

The global elite have this planned out very well. They will back Libra with their real, immutable Bitcoin after Libra is adopted worldwide due to the strong dollar vortex that will force people and companies of all nations to use Libra instead of their national currencies as their local currencies collapse in relative value to the US dollar which backs Libra (along with UK pound, Euros, and Yen).

After the SegWit donations attack, everyone will think Bitcoin died. The Tulip Mania story will be spread all over the news. The altcoins will collapse into the abyss. And the world will turn to Facebook’s Libra as a more reliable electronic currency that can actually scale and has a stable value relative to the four nation-state fiat reserve currencies that Libra is backed with.

So killing Core BitcOn has been the plan all along so that they could usher in Libra. Then later as the US dollar peaks in value and starts to fail as the world is in total monetary chaos/crisis, they will then reveal that the real Bitcoin never died and that it is worth $1+ million per BTC. And they will start backing Libra with it, transitioning away from the U.S. Dollar to the cheers of the world which will have suffered so much from the strong dollar vortex monetary crisis (further abetted by Libra). In that way they bring us onto a 666 enslavement system which they entirely own.

BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE TOO STOOPID TO SEE WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES.

The only people economically interested in this conspiracy theory are the miners stealing Segwit outputs. There are no other Bitcoin users who rationally, for economic reasons, would fork their software. Thus, you have not demonstrated why there would be any market demand for your shitcoin.

Blah, blah, blah. You’re an idiot who is going to fall into the woodchipper where you belong. You should not disrespect people who are much wiser and smarter than you, but yet you do. Hahaha. My popcorn is ready.

So you have Mircea Popescu, the colluding miners engaging in mass theft, and a few Aspergers-laden retards like yourself. That sure sounds like a network that will see mass/institutional adoption! We're all right behind you! Roll Eyes

Hahaha. Go read @jbrefer’s post that I linked for you, fool.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have completely misinterpreted the source of Bitcoin's value. It is derived from its network. You can't have a network with hundreds of users and no economic activity and have it retain any value.

Lol, the only bubble you’re bursting is the irrelevance of worthless nodes and worthless networks.

It's just going to be like the last D&D game you played with your ragtag band of retard friends in your Mom's basement. No one will fucking notice you or care that you exist. Network data shows the network won't even notice you left. You would just be forking yourselves off the network into irrelevance.

Dude I am 54 years old. Keep on dreaming retard. And do not disappear when I am proven correct. I will be curious to see what you can say at that juncture. How will you react mentally and emotionally when everything I wrote is proven to be absolutely prescient?

[…]

Quote from: Shelby
Interested individuals should re-read all the prior discussion.

They certainly should. It's obvious you keep neglecting to address the massive holes in your ridiculous theory, which have been pointed out repeatedly. You merely keep repeating your claims ad nauseum with an attitude of authority, as if that's a respectable debate method. You are incredibly dishonest intellectually.

Quote from: Shelby
Remember I am perfectly happy if no one listens to me.

Good because that's already the position you occupy.......

Lol. You do not speak for those who hodl millions of BTC. The important people listen. Because if they fail to listen, they will be impoverished and not important anymore. So after the SegWit donations restoration of the one-and-only, immutable, no-worthless-scammer-Core-political-circus-consensus, Satoshi “v0.1” real Bitcoin (i.e. not scammer Ver’s BCH nor scammer Craig’s BSV), all remaining important people will effectively have listened to me, or acted on their own analysis which is congruent with what I have written. Given I am the only person who has actively relayed this information from the bowels of the logs at trilema.com, presumably they’ve obtained their information from me or directly from my original source.



Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
We differ when we get to opportunity cost. As in, I don't think it's likely that there is one.

BTC can't be dumped for TRB because TRB will be blacklisted from any and every legitimate exchange and OTC broker. The few shady Chinese exchanges that may list it won't have any liquidity. Similarly, the Etherum DAO "attacker" couldn't spend his ETH anywhere. Hell, CSW sued a few people around the twitterverse and several of the largest exchanges delisted BSV. How much worse shape will TRB be in when the authorities declare segwit booty coins to all be considered stolen property?

Also, it would be much too risky, legally. People would go to jail or get killed for taking the booty. With the booty stolen, major exchanges would lose money, banks would lose money, oligarchs would lose money, nation states would lose money. Those people are the elite, and they would absolutely crush any miners who stole from them.

Besides all of that, it would be a PR nightmare. No one would trust the miners and TRB chain anymore. If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Here is my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion. And one of us will be correct. I dare you to store your BTC in SegWit addresses that begin with a 3 if you have conviction about your opinion. Put your money where your mouth is, I certainly am.

I have a strong opinion which will seem quite judgmental. Unfortunately like most people you are apparently easily fooled by manipulated optics and not able to drill down to fundamental generative essence economics and game theory. Most people are prone to a delusion that reality is that which is openly visible. It’s some sort of carryover from our evolution in our ancestral environment. We are still very much herding animals, so easy to be fooled like sheep.

Essence of Genius

Regarding exchanges, please re-read what I wrote in an earlier post in this thread. Also re-read my points there about the uber elite trade on OTC which will never blacklist anything that can earn a matchmaker lucrative commissions. The powers-that-be control the exchanges. These “bucket shops” are a dog and pony circus they setup to fool you. It’s analogous to a facade of a building on a Hollywood set.

Indeed (the “PR nightmare”) creating the illusion that Bitcoin died is part of the timing of bringing their 666 Facebook Libra to prominence. I explained that in more detail above. Then later the powers-that-be (i.e. the uber wealthy who will control most of the BTC after the minions are kicked off by the donations taking and the rising transaction fees) bring back the real Bitcoin which never died and start backing Libra with it.

Haven’t you ever wondered why Bitcoin recieved so much airtime in the Zionist controlled mass media? Facebook’s Libra is most definitely Zionists controlled.

The entire point is to fool everyone. Because goyim sheepeople are so easy to fool. It’s akin to taking candy from babies.

Your delusion about the law is especially unremarkable:

Quote
“Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws”

The uber wealthy are above the law. The law is for enslaving sheepeople. My gosh you folks live in some fantasy which does not exist. Please try to come back in touch with reality.

Additionally there’s no law which prevents miners from obeying the immutable protocol. Where did you dream up this illegality nonsense? Cryptocurrency is not banking. There are no consumer protection laws. It is really amazing to me that you would make such a mistake in your thought process.

That is also helps to discredit decentralized cryptocurrency so as to aid the acceptance and preference for the lack of permissionlessness in FacebooK’s Libra. Burning the fingertips of crypto fools up to their armpits is how to make the public view the lack of permissionlessness in Facebook Libra as an advantage over that “scam” of decentralized cryptocurrency which preceded Libra.

Also I had already explained in great detail how the miners who partake will be able to cash out of their free air-drop of Core shitcoins (to altcoins, fiat, etc) using Tether in a way that exchanges will be incapable of blacklisting. Go back to the Long-term advance notice thread and also find the posts I made on Steemit about that specific point.

Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Damnit I am so tired of reading this same nonsense point repeated after I have refuted it so many times. Why can’t you guys assimilate and remember what I write?

The Schelling point is only for maintaining the immutability of Satoshi’s protocol. There is no Schelling point around double-spending. Think it out. I explained this in great detail in the past and I am not going to repeat it all again or go digging to find the post where I did spoon fed the detailed logic. This is exhausting. I am not going to hold your hand every time you cross the street without looking both directions. Go lose your BTC in SegWit addresses. Lol.

Cripes would you sheepeople at least learn something about game theory before slobbering more nonsense.

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July 09, 2019, 04:50:21 AM
 #27

Quote from: Shelby

If you doubt whether the miners have the concentrated resources to enforce the donations of the 6 million BTC (and growing)  “anyone can spend” booty, I suggest you re-read what @jbreher wrote as quoted in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

When BTC is say $50,000 in May 2020 at the halving (the approximate date when Craig is ostensibly promising to initiate the donations taking) and assuming that SegWit booty has grown to perhaps 8 million BTC by then, that will be $400 billion in value with which to finance monopolizing all ASIC production. You fucking sheepeople idiots and your worthless networks of worthless nodes and worthless exchanges are irrelevant. Money (economics) talks, BS (talk, cheerleading, politics, and other hot air) walks.


But which exchange/exchanges will give it the BTC ticker? I believe NONE. It will be another worthless chain that no one would value, or care about, like the other forked-coins.

Plus who will be the developers your apocalypse-coin? Cool

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July 09, 2019, 07:17:42 AM
 #28

But which exchange/exchanges will give it the BTC ticker? I believe NONE. It will be another worthless chain that no one would value, or care about, like the other forked-coins.

Plus who will be the developers your apocalypse-coin? Cool

don't you know, "the global elite" has got this all planned out. competent developers and actual users don't matter, because once the "segwit booty" is stolen, "core bitcon" will die. and for reasons unknown, the "original immutable satoshi protocol" will then rise to millions of dollars. and shelby will become rich and get his revenge on the world for wronging him so badly.

i wish i could get the last few minutes of my life back. everything the guy writes sounds like he's been locked in a bunker for a decade without human contact.

stop feeding the troll IMO......

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July 09, 2019, 06:51:44 PM
 #29

Following is relayed.

Quote from: Shelby

But which exchange/exchanges will give it the BTC ticker? I believe NONE. It will be another worthless chain that no one would value, or care about, like the other forked-coins.

As if the King of England needed anybody but himself when he declared that only tally sticks were legal tender. This is analogously what will happens when the global elite after some years pass, declare that real Bitcoin is the backing reserve for Facebook’s Libra, after the fake/forgery Core Bitcoin fork is destroyed because all you fools misconfigured your wallets to receive UTXO in “anyone can spend” addresses— addresses for a protocol with unrecognized signatures. Lol.

You ostensibly watch too much Hollywood fiction and cartoons. Stop looking at the arses of the other sheepeople around you (and your sheepeople corral exchanges) and look out at the world without the rose-colored glasses and perceive reality.

Plus who will be the developers your apocalypse-coin? Cool

Lol. Maybe myself.  Tongue

Seriously man, there are 100s of capable programmers. The Bitcoin Foundation (funded by a real Bitcoin $billionaire) is actively improving the original Satoshi “v0.1” (v0.5.3) client and preparing for the upcoming event.

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July 10, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 03:38:06 AM by infofront
 #30

Quote from: Shelby
Quote from: Shelby
It was Satoshi's fault Segwit was compatible with Bitcoin's protocol rules.

We discussed that in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

Satoshi (actually the global elite) outsmarted you. SegWit is compatible with the protocol, but incompatible with a Nash equilibrium, because a huge “anyone can spend” booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC).

Actually, Satoshi very clearly intended for new transaction types to be implemented exactly as Segwit was: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/bitcointalk/126/

I repeat again that we already discussed that and I rebuked your misunderstanding of what Satoshi wrote per the link you cited.

Go read again my (as relayed by @jbreher) rebuttal of @figmentofmyass’s quote of Satoshi, by clicking the following link:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5147618.msg51388201#msg51388201

Let me further quote Satoshi Nakamoto from the link you provided:

The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime […]

I don't believe a second, compatible implementation of Bitcoin will ever be a good idea.  So much of the design depends on all nodes getting exactly identical results in lockstep that a second implementation would be a menace to the network.  The MIT license is compatible with all other licenses and commercial uses, so there is no need to rewrite it from a licensing standpoint.

Satoshi (who is actually the think tank of the global elite who run this world behind the curtain) provided in Bitcoin’s protocol for a political consensus “soft fork” to be attempted, but clearly understood it would not be a good idea. The reason it’s not a good idea is for the reason I have already explained numerous times to you in my prior posts. Specifically that it creates a huge “anyone can spend” donations booty which miners must take, as the only way to restore the Nash equilibrium. A Nash equilibrium is in this context a game theory that forces miners to mine on only one longest chain and thus that makes Bitcoin a reliable store-of-value. The Core BitcOn-job temporary dissolves the Nash equilibrium while the booty piles up (currently 6 million BTC in SegWit UTXO ready for donating to the miners when they’re sufficiently incentivized and ready to start spending the booty to themselves when they win a block).

Political consensus is not a stable Schelling point because it has no fundamental value and no single-best, one-and-only Nash equilibrium (whereas multiple Nash equilibriums is the antithesis of what a Nash equilibrium means, i.e. the miners and token hodlers must have one strategy that is always best, not multiple choice chaos). The economic opportunity cost of the 6+ million BTC booty is a fundamental value. And only immutability of Satoshi’s “v0.1” protocol provides the unforgeable costliness (i.e. not innumerable forks) that gives Bitcoin unique, rare, hardcapped money supply. Political consensus is never assured and stable (i.e. it is only an ephemeral illusion), because it changes with the political wind. Political consensus is a power vacuum (i.e. not a stable value) that the fundamental economic opportunity cost must manipulate and capture. Fools like you do not understand fundamental economics nor the fundamental nature of political-economics. Again I will refer you to the writings of a man with a 160 I.Q. (i.e. 4 SD) and the comments of his numerous 3 and 4 SD I.Q. commentators:

Some Iron Laws of Political Economics

The global elite are rounding all of you sheepeople into a corral for harvesting. Lol. They have this planned out. I explained in the Long-term advance notice! thread that the global elite financed Blockstream to hoist this Core SegWit scam, so they can fleece all the BTC of minions and idiots before they prepare to back Facebook’s 666 Libra currency with Bitcoin, thus making Bitcoin a world reserve currency that the uber elite control and own. You fucktards and your worthless network of nodes and exchanges are not needed at all. The global elite can create everything they need. The only point of this exercise has been to hoist the 666 system on the world in a clever, surreptitious (but in plain sight because people are stoopid), and insidious way so that you idiots would actually rally, cheer, and support your enslavement. Lol. Sheepeople such as all of you who are commenting in this thread, are fucking hilariously stoopid.



You just don't understand the game theory involved.

An idiot who doesn’t comprehend game theory trying to claim I do not understand the game theory involved. Lol.

If you doubt whether the miners have the concentrated resources to enforce the donations of the 6 million BTC (and growing)  “anyone can spend” booty, I suggest you re-read what @jbreher wrote as quoted in the Long-term advance notice! thread.

When BTC is say $50,000 in May 2020 at the halving (the approximate date when Craig is ostensibly promising to initiate the donations taking) and assuming that SegWit booty has grown to perhaps 8 million BTC by then, that will be $400 billion in value with which to finance monopolizing all ASIC production. You fucking sheepeople idiots and your worthless networks of worthless nodes and worthless exchanges are irrelevant. Money (economics) talks, BS (talk, cheerleading, politics, and other hot air) walks.

You keep falsely asserting the most rational decision miners can make is to hard fork away from the majority of the network. You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this as a rational move. You perpetually fail to account for the lack of market value of the miner's fork. 6 million hard forked shitcoins valued at $0 is still $0.

Masturbation does not procreate. Politics does not create value. Power vacuums have no value and are merely for the taking by those who actually possess the power to take them against all others who might attempt to take. This is the definition of a power vacuum. A SegWit booty is a power vacuum.

Abstractly I already cited for you well respected research that explains that nodes in a network are worthless without valuable connections between, i.e. the economically relative nodes are those that the global elite provide because they control most of the BTC and the outcomes. It is the relative value of valuable connections between nodes that impart value to the whole network. We can essentially remove 99% of the nodes and most of the value is retained, because most nodes do not have valuable interconnections. The analogous logic can be applied to network effects also.

The global elite have this planned out very well. They will back Libra with their real, immutable Bitcoin after Libra is adopted worldwide due to the strong dollar vortex that will force people and companies of all nations to use Libra instead of their national currencies as their local currencies collapse in relative value to the US dollar which backs Libra (along with UK pound, Euros, and Yen).

After the SegWit donations attack, everyone will think Bitcoin died. The Tulip Mania story will be spread all over the news. The altcoins will collapse into the abyss. And the world will turn to Facebook’s Libra as a more reliable electronic currency that can actually scale and has a stable value relative to the four nation-state fiat reserve currencies that Libra is backed with.

So killing Core BitcOn has been the plan all along so that they could usher in Libra. Then later as the US dollar peaks in value and starts to fail as the world is in total monetary chaos/crisis, they will then reveal that the real Bitcoin never died and that it is worth $1+ million per BTC. And they will start backing Libra with it, transitioning away from the U.S. Dollar to the cheers of the world which will have suffered so much from the strong dollar vortex monetary crisis (further abetted by Libra). In that way they bring us onto a 666 enslavement system which they entirely own.

BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE TOO STOOPID TO SEE WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES.

The only people economically interested in this conspiracy theory are the miners stealing Segwit outputs. There are no other Bitcoin users who rationally, for economic reasons, would fork their software. Thus, you have not demonstrated why there would be any market demand for your shitcoin.

Blah, blah, blah. You’re an idiot who is going to fall into the woodchipper where you belong. You should not disrespect people who are much wiser and smarter than you, but yet you do. Hahaha. My popcorn is ready.

So you have Mircea Popescu, the colluding miners engaging in mass theft, and a few Aspergers-laden retards like yourself. That sure sounds like a network that will see mass/institutional adoption! We're all right behind you! Roll Eyes

Hahaha. Go read @jbrefer’s post that I linked for you, fool.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have completely misinterpreted the source of Bitcoin's value. It is derived from its network. You can't have a network with hundreds of users and no economic activity and have it retain any value.

Lol, the only bubble you’re bursting is the irrelevance of worthless nodes and worthless networks.

It's just going to be like the last D&D game you played with your ragtag band of retard friends in your Mom's basement. No one will fucking notice you or care that you exist. Network data shows the network won't even notice you left. You would just be forking yourselves off the network into irrelevance.

Dude I am 54 years old. Keep on dreaming retard. And do not disappear when I am proven correct. I will be curious to see what you can say at that juncture. How will you react mentally and emotionally when everything I wrote is proven to be absolutely prescient?

[…]

Quote from: Shelby
Interested individuals should re-read all the prior discussion.

They certainly should. It's obvious you keep neglecting to address the massive holes in your ridiculous theory, which have been pointed out repeatedly. You merely keep repeating your claims ad nauseum with an attitude of authority, as if that's a respectable debate method. You are incredibly dishonest intellectually.

Quote from: Shelby
Remember I am perfectly happy if no one listens to me.

Good because that's already the position you occupy.......

Lol. You do not speak for those who hodl millions of BTC. The important people listen. Because if they fail to listen, they will be impoverished and not important anymore. So after the SegWit donations restoration of the one-and-only, immutable, no-worthless-scammer-Core-political-circus-consensus, Satoshi “v0.1” real Bitcoin (i.e. not scammer Ver’s BCH nor scammer Craig’s BSV), all remaining important people will effectively have listened to me, or acted on their own analysis which is congruent with what I have written. Given I am the only person who has actively relayed this information from the bowels of the logs at trilema.com, presumably they’ve obtained their information from me or directly from my original source.



Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
We differ when we get to opportunity cost. As in, I don't think it's likely that there is one.

BTC can't be dumped for TRB because TRB will be blacklisted from any and every legitimate exchange and OTC broker. The few shady Chinese exchanges that may list it won't have any liquidity. Similarly, the Etherum DAO "attacker" couldn't spend his ETH anywhere. Hell, CSW sued a few people around the twitterverse and several of the largest exchanges delisted BSV. How much worse shape will TRB be in when the authorities declare segwit booty coins to all be considered stolen property?

Also, it would be much too risky, legally. People would go to jail or get killed for taking the booty. With the booty stolen, major exchanges would lose money, banks would lose money, oligarchs would lose money, nation states would lose money. Those people are the elite, and they would absolutely crush any miners who stole from them.

Besides all of that, it would be a PR nightmare. No one would trust the miners and TRB chain anymore. If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Here is my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion. And one of us will be correct. I dare you to store your BTC in SegWit addresses that begin with a 3 if you have conviction about your opinion. Put your money where your mouth is, I certainly am.

I'm keeping all my BTC in legacy addresses. I've advised others to do the same. However, I'd estimate there's only something like a 10-15% chance that the booty will ever be taken.

Quote from: Shelby
I have a strong opinion which will seem quite judgmental. Unfortunately like most people you are apparently easily fooled by manipulated optics and not able to drill down to fundamental generative essence economics and game theory. Most people are prone to a delusion that reality is that which is openly visible. It’s some sort of carryover from our evolution in our ancestral environment. We are still very much herding animals, so easy to be fooled like sheep.

Essence of Genius

Or you're just too emotionally and/or egotistically (as your link above would imply) invested in your narrative to see or acknowledge other possibilities. Whenever someone says that something is 100% certain to happen, that sends up a huge, red flag. When it's something like the segwit booty being claimed by miners, there are two many moving parts and variables, some known and some unknown, to draw a certain conclusion.

Quote from: Shelby
Regarding exchanges, please re-read what I wrote in an earlier post in this thread. Also re-read my points there about the uber elite trade on OTC which will never blacklist anything that can earn a matchmaker lucrative commissions. The powers-that-be control the exchanges. These “bucket shops” are a dog and pony circus they setup to fool you. It’s analogous to a facade of a building on a Hollywood set.

Indeed (the “PR nightmare”) creating the illusion that Bitcoin died is part of the timing of bringing their 666 Facebook Libra to prominence. I explained that in more detail above. Then later the powers-that-be (i.e. the uber wealthy who will control most of the BTC after the minions are kicked off by the donations taking and the rising transaction fees) bring back the real Bitcoin which never died and start backing Libra with it.

Haven’t you ever wondered why Bitcoin recieved so much airtime in the Zionist controlled mass media? Facebook’s Libra is most definitely Zionists controlled.

The entire point is to fool everyone. Because goyim sheepeople are so easy to fool. It’s akin to taking candy from babies.

Your delusion about the law is especially unremarkable:

Quote
“Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws”

The uber wealthy are above the law. The law is for enslaving sheepeople. My gosh you folks live in some fantasy which does not exist. Please try to come back in touch with reality.

Virtually no one with any power has a significant amount of bitcoin.

Quote from: Shelby
Additionally there’s no law which prevents miners from obeying the immutable protocol. Where did you dream up this illegality nonsense? Cryptocurrency is not banking. There are no consumer protection laws. It is really amazing to me that you would make such a mistake in your thought process.

You're thinking like a computer scientist and not like a bureaucrat. Even common law would be enough to prosecute miners for defrauding thousands of people.

Quote from: Shelby
That is also helps to discredit decentralized cryptocurrency so as to aid the acceptance and preference for the lack of permissionlessness in FacebooK’s Libra. Burning the fingertips of crypto fools up to their armpits is how to make the public view the lack of permissionlessness in Facebook Libra as an advantage over that “scam” of decentralized cryptocurrency which preceded Libra.

Also I had already explained in great detail how the miners who partake will be able to cash out of their free air-drop of Core shitcoins (to altcoins, fiat, etc) using Tether in a way that exchanges will be incapable of blacklisting. Go back to the Long-term advance notice thread and also find the posts I made on Steemit about that specific point.

Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Damnit I am so tired of reading this same nonsense point repeated after I have refuted it so many times. Why can’t you guys assimilate and remember what I write?

The Schelling point is only for maintaining the immutability of Satoshi’s protocol. There is no Schelling point around double-spending. Think it out. I explained this in great detail in the past and I am not going to repeat it all again or go digging to find the post where I did spoon fed the detailed logic. This is exhausting. I am not going to hold your hand every time you cross the street without looking both directions. Go lose your BTC in SegWit addresses. Lol.

Cripes would you sheepeople at least learn something about game theory before slobbering more nonsense.

The Schelling point has shifted to segwit. The fact that the Schelling point was 1MB two years ago is becoming less and less relevant. The Schelling point of money used to be seashells. These things change, and in the bitcoin world they change at incredible speed.

Furthermore, you can't demonstrate conclusively that we're not at a Nash equilibrium currently. The linchpin of your entire theory is based on pure speculation that powerful elites will flood into TRB.

I'll publicly state that this is quite possible, but far from a certainty.

Edit: After thinking about it some more, I'm willing to concede that if the right elites get involved, the other problems could disappear.

I began thinking about the 2008 housing crisis in the US, and how the elites committed fraud, crashed the economy, took millions of homes from people, and laughed all the way to the bank.
Quote
And no one went to jail. In fact, the government gave the banks more money, and executive bonuses hit new records. This seems to be an analogous situation to the segwit booty theft.
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July 10, 2019, 06:33:22 AM
 #31


Another one of Craig Wright like weirdos. This is the problem with Crypto today and has been always. Sometimes its so anonymous, some secrets are just never decypherable. And that gives rise to conspiracy theorists and fraudsters.

I don't see it as a problem. The problem is just what human nature is, I mean Craig Wright isn't anonymous anymore and he chose long ago not to be, how else can he make a lot of money if he's not famous? So it's nothing about anonymity and btw Bitcoin isn't 100% anonymous anymore, but it's just about greed and sociopathic behavior which people have been having before Bitcoin was ever created.

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July 10, 2019, 08:49:22 AM
 #32

Quote from: Shelby

But which exchange/exchanges will give it the BTC ticker? I believe NONE. It will be another worthless chain that no one would value, or care about, like the other forked-coins.

As if the King of England needed anybody but himself when he declared that only tally sticks were legal tender. This is analogously what will happens when the global elite after some years pass, declare that real Bitcoin is the backing reserve for Facebook’s Libra, after the fake/forgery Core Bitcoin fork is destroyed because all you fools misconfigured your wallets to receive UTXO in “anyone can spend” addresses— addresses for a protocol with unrecognized signatures. Lol.

You ostensibly watch too much Hollywood fiction and cartoons. Stop looking at the arses of the other sheepeople around you (and your sheepeople corral exchanges) and look out at the world without the rose-colored glasses and perceive reality.


Is that it? That's your debate? That didn't answer the question. But what rational exchange would give your apocalypse-coin, the chain which miners can STEAL Segwit outputs, the BTC ticker?

Quote

Plus who will be the developers your apocalypse-coin? Cool

Lol. Maybe myself.  Tongue

Seriously man, there are 100s of capable programmers. The Bitcoin Foundation (funded by a real Bitcoin $billionaire) is actively improving the original Satoshi “v0.1” (v0.5.3) client and preparing for the upcoming event.


Hundreds? Can you name some of them? I believe there's none.

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July 10, 2019, 12:45:09 PM
 #33

Craig Wright dont control bitcoin. He controls bitcoin SV, which is a fork of bitcoin cash.

Whatever he tries to attempt, I dont believe miners will follow him. They didnt follow the bitcoin cash fork in the first place, and even the ones who followed it, didnt follow to the SV fork after that. Bitmain, which is one of the biggest, stayed with bitcoin and bitcoin cash. There is only one company mining bitcoin SV, which is controlled by Craig Wright.

Bitcoin miners had signalled Segwit after the bitcoin cash fork, and even if Segwit had some problems, the network recognizes its address formats. Segwit addresses didnt have retrievable private keys in 0.15, but now they have, so what do we have here? We have a sophisticated attempt at FUD, to create panic and make people exchange their bitcoins for fiat money.

If such "donations mechanism" exists, miners will not touch it, because it would cause a desynch in the network and, consequently, a hard fork. Also the price would go down due to the FUD created by such action, and the so-called billions of dollars of the "Segwit booty" would value only some millions. Its just a matter of game theory: miners would shoot at their own feet if they mess with the address structure. They would kill their own industry.
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July 10, 2019, 02:31:51 PM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 02:57:02 PM by Traxo
 #34

Here is another response I found:  

Quote from: Shelby

@infofront,

Please do not take this response as disrespectful. I appreciate you and respect you as a person. I am going to frankly express my displeasure at the apparent laziness of your thought processes. I know you to be a very smart and articulate person. So I am remiss to understand how you could make the logic errors below. I can only assume it is because you are simply busy and have not been able to think about this issue intensely as I have. The diligent turtle wins the race against the hasty hare.

Note if you were able to find some hole in my reasoning, I would be grateful. So please do not take this as hubris. I am just flabberghast that this issue seems to be so difficult for most people to digest coherently.


Quote from: Shelby
Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
We differ when we get to opportunity cost. As in, I don't think it's likely that there is one.

BTC can't be dumped for TRB because TRB will be blacklisted from any and every legitimate exchange and OTC broker. The few shady Chinese exchanges that may list it won't have any liquidity. Similarly, the Etherum DAO "attacker" couldn't spend his ETH anywhere. Hell, CSW sued a few people around the twitterverse and several of the largest exchanges delisted BSV. How much worse shape will TRB be in when the authorities declare segwit booty coins to all be considered stolen property?

Also, it would be much too risky, legally. People would go to jail or get killed for taking the booty. With the booty stolen, major exchanges would lose money, banks would lose money, oligarchs would lose money, nation states would lose money. Those people are the elite, and they would absolutely crush any miners who stole from them.

Besides all of that, it would be a PR nightmare. No one would trust the miners and TRB chain anymore. If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Here is my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion. And one of us will be correct. I dare you to store your BTC in SegWit addresses that begin with a 3 if you have conviction about your opinion. Put your money where your mouth is, I certainly am.

I'm keeping all my BTC in legacy addresses. I've advised others to do the same. However, I'd estimate there's only something like a 10-15% chance that the booty will ever be taken.

As I have stated in private (and I believe also public?) communications, I don’t have absolute confidence about the timing. Craig Wright has ostensibly promised to initiate the attack at halving on May 2020 (although Craig is apparently obscuring the restoration of Satoshi’s immutable Bitcoin as something benefiting BSV which is not immutable, because ostensibly Craig’s role is to scam everyone, including everyone investing in BSV). And given a $100 – 400 billion booty (depending on BTC price in May 2020 and whether the current 6 million BTC in SegWit addresses increases), I posit they could (as @jbreher alluded to when he mentioned Ayre’s SQR is a customer of at least Samsung) afford to increase their extant 3% of the network hashrate (which perhaps is already sufficient to initiate the attack since miners will be incentivized in snowball effect to switch from Core to donations taking) possibly monopolizing (i.e. buy all of) the ASIC production for SHA256 for a considerable period of time (to make it sure they have enough monopoly on spare hashrate to annihilate Core … a detailed discussion of the mechanics is omitted for the time being so as to keep this discussion concise).

Yet I do have nearly absolute confidence about the SegWit donations taking coming to fruition eventually because the (eventually $trillions if not taken soon) booty removes the Nash equilibrium because until it is taken nobody can be sure whether their spends will not be rolled back, i.e. that the miners could begin the restoration “attack” at any time and nobody can know when (the initial stage of the donations taking will be surreptitious so the planners can get their free air-dropped Core shitcoins separated and loaded onto to exchanges for dumping to Tether and for bankrupting the exchanges which hodl in SegWit addresses).

And AFAICS, the May 2020 halving is the ideal/optimum confluence of timing for all the reasons I have already stated in this thread and the other threads which are cited in this thread.

So I guesstimate the odds of the attack at the May 2020 halving at no less than 20 – 33% (only low because I lack time to investigate and because Craig is not the most reliable person around) and I’m leaning higher than that, although I don’t have enough time to research and keep tabs on Craig and his group. If I really wanted more conviction on the timing and I had a lot at stake, I could investigate more, but my opportunity cost is too great. I have other important things to do.

My speculative narrative tying this into posited global-elite “666” plans for a Facebook’s Libra, is that Craig is purposefully appearing to be a loon and also a scammer. This is necessary in my narrative to turn the public towards Libra and away from decentralized cryptocurrency from 2020 forward after the SegWit restoration of Bitcoin potentially decimates the cryptocosm for some years.


Quote from: Shelby
I have a strong opinion which will seem quite judgmental. Unfortunately like most people you are apparently easily fooled by manipulated optics and not able to drill down to fundamental generative essence economics and game theory. Most people are prone to a delusion that reality is that which is openly visible. It’s some sort of carryover from our evolution in our ancestral environment. We are still very much herding animals, so easy to be fooled like sheep.

Essence of Genius

Or you're just too emotionally and/or egotistically (as your link above would imply) invested in your narrative to see or acknowledge other possibilities.

It’s not egotistical to attempt to objectively identify what distinguishes genius. I’m not claiming I’m genius or significantly so. I know my limitations.

Emotional? My use of terms such as “fucktard” is because I am so exasperated that sheepeople are unable to assimilate information. And that sheepeople are so easily fooled because they do not reason coherently. The following linked blog post explains the taxonomy of mental errors that most people make and which you are also (apparently?) making here in this post of yours:

http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-piss-me-the-fuck-off-a-guide/

For example, the inkblot of assigning ego to my linked attempt to understand what distinguishes genius. Or your mislabeling as “emotion” that which is actually exasperation+exhaustion of explaining the same points over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over again (and just balancing the rhetoric against those who started the discussion by referring to me as a “nutjob”).

Btw, I should not even bother writing here, but I do it because I care and because when I am proven correct later, it will raise my status amongst those who notice and I will hopefully get more respect and cooperation as a result, at least from those awake enough to realize/discriminate. Also because the cryptocosm has been good to me, and thus I have a duty to return something back to the community. This is my Weberian cultural values, being that I am a Hajnal line Western Christian. Also given I was raised in the South, I have particular sense of allegiance to honorable virtues. Also because my ancestor was Isaac Shelby.

Whenever someone says that something is 100% certain to happen, that sends up a huge, red flag. When it's something like the segwit booty being claimed by miners, there are two many moving parts and variables, some known and some unknown, to draw a certain conclusion.

Some things are actually 99.9% certain. For example it is 99.9% certain that all of us will die. So it’s another inkblot to start off with a premise that anyone who claims high degree of certitude or conviction is necessarily incorrect. It’s as if you’re trying to apply an aphorism that isn’t always true. Your “red flag” indicator is not an 100% automatic implication of falsehood or even low likelihood (low likelihood for a large sample of such tests yes, but each test has the small potential to have a high variance). You must apply a lot of effort to determine if your red flag test represents a valid case or not. Lazy aphorisms will not suffice.

A more pertinent example here and addressing your strawman of “moving parts” would be our recent private discussion of the future politics in the USA. While there are many moving parts, we can conclude with near certainty that because of inertia that can’t be undone or compensated for quickly enough, the U.S.A. will trend towards the Millennials’ philosophical preferences (formed in their youth) after the Silent Generation is all dead and the Millennials have matured enough to vote en masse circa 2032.

Further to the strawman of “moving parts”, our human bodies are remarkably complex, yet I can predict that I will not fall down the stairs tonight when I descend to the dinner table. Entropy does not work the way you are postulating. Nature is amazingly complex, yet I can be fairly certain that the Sun will rise tomorrow and that there will be oxygen in the bedroom when I open the entrance door.

Basically what you’re admitting is that you’re blinded by complexity you can’t/haven’t reasoned about/through, thus you can’t/don’t see any coherent, absolutely convincing reasoning on the issue. I.e. you see only too many moving parts wherein a smarter or more diligently studious person may assimilate a pattern+model. Thus you apparently default back to (manipulated/politicized) optics as your basis for what will happen, which is a very aggravating mental error that most people make. If sheepeople can’t understand something, they substitute shortcuts to console themselves.

Sheepeople are herded animals. When they can’t make holistic sense something directly, they look at the arses of the other sheepeople or any other mystical sign (which is why the masses are so dangerous). IOW, they grasp at strings as you have ostensibly done by “you can not possibly be correct, because (too complex and) you are too certain of our convictions, therefore it must be ego and emotion clouding your reasoning.”

That is not logic. That is aliasing error, witch craft or voodoo. If you’ve seen other idiots slobbering nonsense with “conviction” in this world, please don’t presume I’m as sloppy in my analysis as they are. You must actually dissect my arguments and reasoning, which so far I have not seen you do to any extensive level.

Quote from: Shelby
Regarding exchanges, please re-read what I wrote in an earlier post in this thread. Also re-read my points there about the uber elite trade on OTC which will never blacklist anything that can earn a matchmaker lucrative commissions. The powers-that-be control the exchanges. These “bucket shops” are a dog and pony circus they setup to fool you. It’s analogous to a facade of a building on a Hollywood set.

Indeed (the “PR nightmare”) creating the illusion that Bitcoin died is part of the timing of bringing their 666 Facebook Libra to prominence. I explained that in more detail above. Then later the powers-that-be (i.e. the uber wealthy who will control most of the BTC after the minions are kicked off by the donations taking and the rising transaction fees) bring back the real Bitcoin which never died and start backing Libra with it.

Haven’t you ever wondered why Bitcoin recieved so much airtime in the Zionist controlled mass media? Facebook’s Libra is most definitely Zionists controlled.

The entire point is to fool everyone. Because goyim sheepeople are so easy to fool. It’s akin to taking candy from babies.

Your delusion about the law is especially unremarkable:

Quote
“Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws”

The uber wealthy are above the law. The law is for enslaving sheepeople. My gosh you folks live in some fantasy which does not exist. Please try to come back in touch with reality.

Virtually no one with any power has a significant amount of bitcoin.

Apologies but I must be frank and state that’s presumptuous nonsense that fails to consider the known facts of Bitcoin and our physical universe.

Power relative to Bitcoin or power in the world-at-large? The latter is the only claim that could possibly have any chance of being correct, and it would be irrelevant to our discussion. It’s only the economic majority of Bitcoin that matters w.r.t. to a hard fork war (i.e. when the miners start taking the generous, noble, appreciated “please-protect-Bitcoin’s-security-and-Nash-equilibrium” donations).

Where did you get this idea? We have for example the trilema.com dude with at least 500,000 BTC. We have Ayre with 3% of the Bitcoin network hashrate. We have the Winklevoss twins. We have countries such as Bulgaria and Russia reportedly accumulating large stakes.

Also how would you know who controls the 18 million BTC already minted?

Most importantly there is unequivocal proof that you’re both incorrect and not very astute on this point. The power-law distribution of wealth (and of any fungible resource) in an inviolable phenomenon of nature. Someone would have to be very, very dumb to assume the power-law distribution does not apply to Bitcoin. I assume you’re not dumb, so this is probably just your failing to assimilate all the known factors.

Perhaps what you meant to imply is that no one powerful enough relative to the world-at-large, but that would be irrelevant to a fork war which only requires the decision of the economic majority of Bitcoin, not necessarily the powerful that control the world. Nevertheless $100 – 400 billion of booty (and probably growing) is probably significant enough to powerful in the realm of the world-at-large.


Quote from: Shelby
Additionally there’s no law which prevents miners from obeying the immutable protocol. Where did you dream up this illegality nonsense? Cryptocurrency is not banking. There are no consumer protection laws. It is really amazing to me that you would make such a mistake in your thought process.

You're thinking like a computer scientist and not like a bureaucrat.

No I am actually saying AFAIK there is no law (nor jurisprudence) on the books for example in the U.S.A. that could be applied against miners. Miners mine which ever proof-of-work blockchain and fork they want to mine. It’s a free market activity. Some miners switch blockchains often according to where they compute they can earn the most return-on-investment. If they choose to mine Satoshi’s protocol, that is not illegal. If fools donate their BTC to “anyone can spend” incentivizing the miners to mine on Satoshi’s protocol to restore the Nash equilibrium and thus (restoring) the security of the longest chain, then AFAICS the miners are doing a perfectly legal and absolutely honorable action.

What do idiots deserve when they have willingly misconfigured their clients and spend their BTC to UTXO which have signatures which are unrecognizable in the Satoshi protocol. It will be hilarious if anyone tries to take a miner to court (assuming they can even identify any miners given that proof-of-work enables miners to be anonymous). I believe any reasonable judge will throw such a nonsense case out of court for lack of grounds for case.

The Bitcoin protocol makes no legal guarantees about which “soft fork” the miners will follow. Only idiots who have no training in law, think that Core’s political deceptions bind legal obligations to miners.

Even common law would be enough to prosecute miners for defrauding thousands of people.

Please cite such jurisprudence? Miners are not defrauding anyone. Everyone with SegWit 3 addresses will still have their tokens in the Core protocol, after it hard forks off from the Satoshi protocol at that juncture. Why should miners be obligated to give them Satoshi protocol tokens which the miners expend hashrate and risk to obtain, at the juncture when the Satoshi miners restore Bitcoin’s immutability and Nash equilibrium by forcing the Core scam to fork (and fuck) off?

Core is the one who deceived the users implying that a “soft fork” with signaling is a guaranteed thing. No. If Core wanted to prevent such a booty, power vacuum and hole in the Nash equilibrium from accruing, they could have instead hardforked off as BCH and BSV did, but of course Core preferred a political power vacuum, because they know damn well that a hardfork would have rendered Core as shitcoins because everyone sells the free airdrop from hard forks. Also because this entire “anyone can spend” and Core political “soft fork” was premeditated before Bitcoin was even launched. Go read what Satoshi wrote. He knew damn well what he enabled. The global elite have had this masterfully planned out. Do you not realize there are human beings on this earth with IQ above 200. Do you not understand that these individuals can reason out complexity that even you and I would have great difficulty fathoming in advance.

The court will look at the facts and realize that the miners have done nothing illegal and that users had freewill. Users can store in Legacy 1 addresses if they want to retain their Satoshi protocol tokens and receive a free airdrop of Core tokens at the hardfork off.

Do you really believe this nonsense you are spewing? I can’t even believe this was written by the same guy I have been communicating with lately. I had developed a lot of respect for you. I frankly believe you are just extremely naive about this issue. I have been studying this and thinking about it for year(s).

My father was a high powered attorney (was West Coast Division Head Attorney for Exxon in the 1980s and early 1990s, before moving on to T.H.U.M.S.) so I have some familiarity with concepts of law and jurisprudence (but not expert). I also ran a business before. I am not your typical young computer science nerd. I have experience in accounting, legal issues, and wide range of disciplines. Again I do not claim to be an expert in law, yet the above is really just common sense.


Quote from: Shelby
That is also helps to discredit decentralized cryptocurrency so as to aid the acceptance and preference for the lack of permissionlessness in FacebooK’s Libra. Burning the fingertips of crypto fools up to their armpits is how to make the public view the lack of permissionlessness in Facebook Libra as an advantage over that “scam” of decentralized cryptocurrency which preceded Libra.

Also I had already explained in great detail how the miners who partake will be able to cash out of their free air-drop of Core shitcoins (to altcoins, fiat, etc) using Tether in a way that exchanges will be incapable of blacklisting. Go back to the Long-term advance notice thread and also find the posts I made on Steemit about that specific point.

Quote from: anonymous wrote in email
If the miners could collaborate to steal the segwit booty, they could also collaborate to start double spending on it at any point.

Damnit I am so tired of reading this same nonsense point repeated after I have refuted it so many times. Why can’t you guys assimilate and remember what I write?

The Schelling point is only for maintaining the immutability of Satoshi’s protocol. There is no Schelling point around double-spending. Think it out. I explained this in great detail in the past and I am not going to repeat it all again or go digging to find the post where I did spoon fed the detailed logic. This is exhausting. I am not going to hold your hand every time you cross the street without looking both directions. Go lose your BTC in SegWit addresses. Lol.

Cripes would you sheepeople at least learn something about game theory before slobbering more nonsense.

The Schelling point has shifted to segwit. The fact that the Schelling point was 1mb two years ago is becoming less and less relevant. The Schelling point of money used to be seashells. These things change, and in the bitcoin world they change at incredible speed.

I expended great effort to explain in my prior post that political Schelling points are power vacuums. It seems as if that statement flew right over your head? Do you understand what a power vacuum means in that context and why it is an important point that refutes you?

You are conflating different concepts as if you have no holistic conceptualization of the interaction of power vacuums, stability of Schelling points, political deception, unforgeable costliness, application of law, etc.. Let’s see how to unravel this…

The transition from seashells to another form of money was not driven and sustained by a political decision that erected a power vacuum. It was driven by fundamental economics. Even when King Henry declared tally sticks to be legal tender, this was not (only) a political decision but rather sustained by a fundamental power that could not be effectively challenged as the King possessed the power to stably capture the power vacuum of governance for an extended epoch. I.e. there was no power vacuum causing instability in CONFIDENCE and STABILITY of the legal tender.

Schelling points are stable only if they involve a fundamental economics raison d'être, because a power vacuum is always unstable until a fundamental economic power captures it. The definition of power VACUUM means a lack of stable capture of the power. A “soft fork” that creates a booty is an intentional creation of a power VACUUM, that must be vacated eventually. Don’t repeat the same dumb arguments I already refuted many times over and over and over again, such as arguing that the Satoshi protocol would be hard forking away from the SegWit protocol. Nonsense. The Legacy address hodlers get tokens in both protocols. The SegWit address bagholders get only Core shitcoins. That is proof that Core is hard forking away, not vice versa.

The essence of politics is competition over who will capture the power vacuum.

Since Core promulgated a (quite deceptive) political Schelling point which is a power vacuum that can only be fully captured by restoring the Nash equilibrium of taking the $100+ billion SegWit booty, then we know without any doubt whatsoever that Core is not stable Schelling point. Deceptive because if Core had instead hardforked then the free market would have already decided and no booty and no loss of Nash equilibrium would have been possible. Core created the problem because they know if they hardforked off, they would have ended up as a shitcoin like BCH and BSV (which is where Core will end up when it is forced to fork off by the booty taking).

No, things don’t change with respect to Bitcoin otherwise it would have no value. If Bitcoin could change like the political wind, who the fuck would want to hodl the shit. Immutability is absolutely essential. It seems you really do not understand Nick Szabo’s unforgeable costliness and PlanB’s model of Bitcoin’s value.

The only thing that changed is that Core erected an ephemeral political power vacuum by fooling a lot of people. But Bitcoin itself never changed. This will become evident probably on May 2020.

If you think I am just making claims without sufficient unequivocal proof, then you apparently are sufficiently ignorant of the generative essence of politics. I cited Eric Raymond’s blog. The guy has north of a 152 IQ and there was a comment on that blog about power vacuums from a guy who has a ~165 IQ. Do you really think you’re in their league? Maybe you should take some time to study and reflect deeply on this? It seems to me you really haven’t thought through what a power vacuum is in this context. What a Nash equilibrium means. What a stable Schelling point is based on and requires. Etc.

Furthermore, you can't demonstrate conclusively that we're not at a Nash equilibrium currently. The linchpin of your entire theory is based on pure speculation that powerful elites will flood into TRB.

I'll publicly state that this is quite possible, but far from a certainty.

Of course I can demonstrate conclusively there is no Nash equilibrium other than the donations taking event. There is a $100+ billion (probably $400 billion by May 2020) booty for taking which (if even only a small fraction is recovered) can fund monopolizing (i.e. purchasing) all SHA256 ASIC production for multiple years. How will anyone compete for mining Core if they can’t get enough of the latest ASICs? How much more demonstration do you need? You going to wait until the overwhelming power of fundamental economic fact is demonstrated with the actual donations taking to then realize it was an undeniable fact?

You guys have attempted to argue that the donations taking Bitcoin would have no value. But I have become much more convicted with the announcement of Facebook Libra, because it is entirely obvious to me now that backing Libra with Bitcoin after the strong dollar vortex guarantees that Bitcoin will have $trillions in market cap valuation. And only an immutable Bitcoin will ever be accepted as a reserve asset. Who would accept a global reserve asset that was controlled by programmers mostly from the USA? Moreover who would hold or trust a reserve asset which can be “soft forked” by the manipulation of politics? Come on man.

I absolutely can’t fathom logically where your skepticism originates (other than I as I stated, you seemed bewildered so you apparently point at shadows/aphorisms and other forms aliasing error). You’ve made no statement that makes any sense to me whatsoever. Which is strange because I normally find you to be very astute and well reasoned.

Edit: After thinking about it some more, I'm willing to concede that if the right elites get involved, the other problems could disappear.

I began thinking about the 2008 housing crisis in the US, and how the elites committed fraud, crashed the economy, took millions of homes from people, and laughed all the way to the bank.

Quote

And no one went to jail. In fact, the government gave the banks more money, and executive bonuses hit new records. This seems to be an analogous situation to the segwit booty theft.

You added this after I wrote the portion of my reply above.

How many examples of the global elite, Zionists banksters cleverly raping the sheepeople do you need?

And you don’t find Facebook Libra the least bit suspicious? What’s going on with that? Created by the CIA, etc.. I documented all of that already.

https://www.corbettreport.com/siliconvalley/

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3017716/facebooks-libra-forcing-china-step-plans-its-own

Libra + Bitcoin is precisely how they could plausibly get the monetary reset that Martin Armstrong knows is coming but (he) can’t yet fathom how they will accomplish it:

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/southeast_asia/thailand-the-new-safe-haven/

Armstrong has a lot of these sort of nuggets:

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/corruption/goldman-sachs-control-the-sec/

Their plan is already in plain view for those with powers of discernment.

Disclaimer: nothing in this post (and any of my writings) is to be construed as legal or investing advice. Readers please consult your own professional adviser.



Is that it? That's your debate? That didn't answer the question. But what rational exchange would give your apocalypse-coin, the chain which miners can STEAL Segwit outputs, the BTC ticker?

You do not reason, that my rebuttal implies also that the assignment of a ticker symbol and other forms of politicized optics is irrelevant.

Hundreds? Can you name some of them? I believe there's none.

I won’t allow you to waste my time with your apparent ignorance of the s/w industry. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Somehow China, Russia, USA, Japan can send satellites into outer-space but you think only a few guys on this planet can write software and incorporate cryptography.  Roll Eyes



Craig Wright dont control bitcoin. He controls bitcoin SV, which is a fork of bitcoin cash.

I have not based my stance on any claim that Craig controls Bitcoin at this time. When the donations taking begins, the snowball effect will likely send most miners fleeing to get their share of the donations. I already detailed the posited mechanics and economics in prior comments on my blog and other forum thread, which includes how Craig+Arye’s SQR (boosted by a cool $billion or so extracted from the initial attack such as the massive short position they will have, etc) can in theory possibly crater the Core BitcOn hashrate after running the price skyhigh right at the halving thus bankrupting miners who don’t mine for donations taking. I am not going to spoon feed every 110 IQ bunny rabbit that comes along here and repeats the same nonsense which I already refuted before.

Whatever he tries to attempt, I dont believe miners will follow him.

What does your beliefs have to do with anything? What is your IQ maybe 110? Where are your facts and relevant economic and game theory arguments?

They didnt follow the bitcoin cash fork in the first place, and even the ones who followed it, didnt follow to the SV fork after that.

Yet Craig crashed the Bitcoin price and presumably made a fortune shorting.



Bitmain, which is one of the biggest, stayed with bitcoin and bitcoin cash. There is only one company mining bitcoin SV, which is controlled by Craig Wright.

Bitcoin the company which had to abandon its ICO and appears to be in dire financial straits, thus likely very desperate when Craig crashes the hashrate. Jihan Wu was more than once in Israel presumably meeting with his Zionist masters.

Also Bitcoin has very wealthy customers. You have no idea who they are and what their intentions and plans are.

Bitcoin miners had signalled Segwit after the bitcoin cash fork,

The Zionists love how stupid goyim are. Signaling. Bwahaha.

“But you can’t take my BTC because miners signaled, huhuhu, all my BTC is gone poof, but you signaled, huhuhu”. Fucking sheepeople retards deserve exactly what they going to get.

[…] and even if Segwit had some problems, the network recognizes its address formats.

Only the Core protocol “soft fork” does.

Segwit addresses didnt have retrievable private keys in 0.15

That has nothing to do with what we are discussing. The fact that you do not realize this, is indicative that you do not know what you are doing.

, but now they have, so what do we have here? We have a sophisticated attempt at FUD, to create panic and make people exchange their bitcoins for fiat money.

There’s no FUD. And I didn't advocate anyone selling BTC just because of this. I advocated hodling in Legacy addresses.

If such "donations mechanism" exists, miners will not touch it, because it would cause a desynch in the network and, consequently, a hard fork.

Indeed. But you are not considering all the factors that the miners will be faced with after Core is forced to hard fuck off. Such as a cratering price which means a cratering income for miners because the difficulty will not adjust downward for some weeks or perhaps months. It is going to be absolute devastation for Core miners. You fool.

Also the price would go down due to the FUD created by such action, and the so-called billions of dollars of the "Segwit booty" would value only some millions. Its just a matter of game theory: miners would shoot at their own feet if they mess with the address structure. They would kill their own industry.

The entire point is to crash the price dimwit. Craig will have already cashed via shorting on the exchanges, and dumping his preloaded Core airdrop shitcoins to Tether or alts.

You have no fucking clue what you are writing about.

Craig will be able to extract perhaps $billion immediately and the long-term plan is probably in the $100s of billions. The legacy Bitcoin will eventually recover in price.

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July 10, 2019, 04:42:00 PM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 04:55:56 PM by fabiorem
 #35

Quote from: Shelby
There’s no FUD. And I didn't advocate anyone selling BTC just because of this. I advocated hodling in Legacy addresses.


There is. The entire intent of this thread is of a evil purpose.

You didn't advocate for selling, but that is what will happen in this scenario, it will cause outright panic in the market. People will sell fearing for their money, even if they are holding in legacy addresses. The code will be put into question, PoW will be discredited. Exchanges will close, and even if legacy bitcoin goes to one million, there will be no place to sell it, and there will be no use case for it. In other words, bitcoin will be dead. Only this so-called "elite" will be able to sell it, into their obscure OTC clubs, which bring us to the conspiracy theory stuff.

I've already had my share with internet conspiracy theorists, and today I dont have any more patience to discuss these retarded theories. Here in the forum we have a resident /pol/tard, R0ach. But R0ach is entertainment, you are not, as there is a clearly twisted intent in your words. So Im putting you and the messenger on ignore. You can continue with your walltexts and name-calling, I dont give a fuck. Have a nice day.
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July 10, 2019, 06:59:00 PM
 #36

I truly wonder when Shelby last saw natural sunlight. Shocked

He's trying to use unfamiliar terms, insults, and text walls to bombard naive readers. Anyone who understands logic and debate can see he hasn't remotely proven anything except his perpetual intellectual dishonesty.

His whole theory is based on the following "facts":

"There is a $100+ billion booty for taking"

The "Segwit donation booty" is only valid on an obscure fork nobody can see. Shelby offers zero rational logic or past market history that suggests an obscure shitcoin fork invisible to the entire network will have any relevance.

The Segwit2x and Bitcoin Cash fiascos are strong proof that miners are completely impotent in facilitating unwanted consensus change. Yet he continues to assert the entire market will nonsensically value the miner hard fork chain rather than Bitcoin. Based on what? Nothing but the delusions in his head about "the global elite."

"The global elite will buy 'The Real Bitcoin' not Core Bitcon!"

We'll fast forward past the reptilian alien and one-world government conspiracy stuff for now.

Shelby believes (I shit you not) the global elite have an elaborate plan to back his obscure shitcoin fork. This is an obscure fork with hardly any existing nodes, with literally handfuls of users. It's an idea he cooked up in his mom's basement. He bizarrely thinks some miners pointing hash rate at his fork (which is incredibly unlikely as it is) will magically make his shitcoin into "Bitcoin."

He tragically misunderstands markets. Bizarrely, he believes:

a) miners would risk their profitable Bitcoin mining operations to mine a fork with no users
b) miners can remove consensus rules (incompatible hard fork) and the hard fork chain will magically retain 100% of Bitcoin's market value
c) miners would not react to the worthless mining rewards on the hard fork chain and would keep mining it
d) the "global elite" will buy his shitcoin into the millions because, you guessed it, miners.

He apparently thinks Bitcoin's value is purely determined by hash rate and that miners are the only relevant actors. There is no concept of "market demand" to be seen in his theory. There is no rational reason why anyone (retail investors, institutions, or "the global elite") would buy these shitcoins. Yet he thinks they will just magically have value.

Furthermore, you can't demonstrate conclusively that we're not at a Nash equilibrium currently. The linchpin of your entire theory is based on pure speculation that powerful elites will flood into TRB.

I'll publicly state that this is quite possible, but far from a certainty.

Anything is possible in an existential sense. Why would you consider this quite possible? Nobody, least of all Shelby, has established why this would happen. It's completely out of left field and is basically just a desperate attempt on Shelby's part to wave away the fact that nobody would ever buy this shitcoin.

If "the global elites" were going to back a shitcoin, why would they ever land on this one?

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July 10, 2019, 09:03:14 PM
 #37

Furthermore, you can't demonstrate conclusively that we're not at a Nash equilibrium currently. The linchpin of your entire theory is based on pure speculation that powerful elites will flood into TRB.

I'll publicly state that this is quite possible, but far from a certainty.

Anything is possible in an existential sense. Why would you consider this quite possible? Nobody, least of all Shelby, has established why this would happen. It's completely out of left field and is basically just a desperate attempt on Shelby's part to wave away the fact that nobody would ever buy this shitcoin.

If "the global elites" were going to back a shitcoin, why would they ever land on this one?

If "the global elites", who've completely missed the boat on bitcoin so far, come to realize its inevitability as a primary global reserve asset, this gives them a way to get a large piece of the pie.

Right now, bitcoin is mostly owned by us plebs. That's why Shelby was referring to the power law distribution of wealth. The state of bitcoin holders is temporarily in violation of natural economic laws while the plebs are in control. The segwit booty theft, and subsequent dump of core BTC for The Real Bitcoin, would shift the balance so as to be in agreement with the power law distribution of wealth.

As for why they'd back "The Real Bitcoin", it's because only Bitcoin has unforgeable costliness. There are literally no other options besides Bitcoin.
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July 10, 2019, 09:59:59 PM
 #38

Anything is possible in an existential sense. Why would you consider this quite possible? Nobody, least of all Shelby, has established why this would happen. It's completely out of left field and is basically just a desperate attempt on Shelby's part to wave away the fact that nobody would ever buy this shitcoin.

If "the global elites" were going to back a shitcoin, why would they ever land on this one?

If "the global elites", who've completely missed the boat on bitcoin so far, come to realize its inevitability as a primary global reserve asset, this gives them a way to get a large piece of the pie.

This line of thinking suggests "the global elites" could accumulate worthless rocks and replace the entirety of gold money with their rocks, just on their say-so. It doesn't work like that. The value of gold derives from global faith in its value. Elites seek to accumulate what the rest of the world values, otherwise they have no spendable wealth. They can't just will value into existence. They would need to fool the world into buying shitcoins in a market they cornered. How? People are dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

So I get that they may want a way to accumulate BTC. But how does this plan actually accomplish that?

Right now, bitcoin is mostly owned by us plebs. That's why Shelby was referring to the power law distribution of wealth. The state of bitcoin holders is temporarily in violation of natural economic laws while the plebs are in control.

Bitcoin may represent a massive transfer of wealth. Wealth distribution may reflect a power law relationship but that doesn't mean the elites of today will be the elites of tomorrow.

As for why they'd back "The Real Bitcoin", it's because only Bitcoin has unforgeable costliness. There are literally no other options besides Bitcoin.

Could you please elaborate? This is not self-evident.

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July 10, 2019, 11:49:13 PM
 #39

Right now, bitcoin is mostly owned by us plebs. That's why Shelby was referring to the power law distribution of wealth. The state of bitcoin holders is temporarily in violation of natural economic laws while the plebs are in control. The segwit booty theft, and subsequent dump of core BTC for The Real Bitcoin, would shift the balance so as to be in agreement with the power law distribution of wealth.


That is, he supports the status quo, since he (apparently) wants the "global elites" to control it, to justify his conspiracy theories. Even if we hold in legacy addresses, we will not have any use case for it, nor we will be able to sell it, as the market will have died due to the massive Segwit theft. Only these so-called "elites" will have access to very obscure OTC markets. In fact, bitcoin will be dead as a P2P, decentralized project, and will be replaced by a global currency, controlled by a world government, extremely centralized and with the possibility of being easily confiscated at the whim of bureaucrats.

You dont need to read his walltexts, this paragraph above already sums it all up. We will have a massive worldwide dystopia and there will be nowhere to run. Bitcoin is no safe haven, on the contrary, its the mouth of the beast ready to swallow you. Sell all your stash before its too late.

Thats why I dont have patience discussing with /pol/tards. Every conspiracy theory is a dead end. I believe they do it on purpose to make you feel helpless and then throw it all away. Its elaborated defeatism. Thats why I classify this as heavy FUD, the kind of which make R0ach's posts looks like child's play.
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July 11, 2019, 12:08:58 AM
 #40

Basic point here but isnt discussion of alternative crypto and forked coins for another forum section, does the tail wag the dog and we should think the secondary derivatives are to determine BTC direction.    I hope all the various protocols compete on the obvious utility requirement and who does it best, a far less convoluted argument then anything underhand just is it more efficient etc.
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I'm posting because I have a similar chart, the 2017 trend is the same I drew (back in 2017).   I posted an old chart like that recently and thought it could lead to a similar top pricing for this move, so we agree on that possible scenario at least.   I didnt have the 8000 as so significant or relating historically like that, seems to fit some

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