The Lightning Network FAQ

[Wind_FURY]

Casey Rodarmor suggests an Open Source dedicated Dark Market app/TOR plugin with a better UX and to utilize the Lightning Network.

The user experience of existing markets is insanely bad, but in pretty fixable ways. They have insane captchas, insane password / pin / backup password requirements, private messages between buyers and sellers must be encrypted and decrypted out-of-browser using PGP, and payments are made primarily with on-chain Monero payments.

This can be solved by creating dedicated client and backend apps which communicate over tor and are able to hold keys, authenticate in both directions using actual cryptography instead of passwords, encrypt and decrypt private messages without needing to download and upload cyphertext manually, and send and receive using lightning.

I think you could produce something with a literal 10x better user experience.

Lightning is under-explored as a privacy technology. Send privacy is good, while recipient privacy is not great. However, recipients can easily make a self-payment to regain privacy.

https://x.com/rodarmor/status/1820207858090410363

What's everyone's opinion about Casey Rodarmor's idea? Because it's going to be Open Source, the Dark Markets will be standardized and less susceptible to exploits and backdoors.

[BlackHatCoiner]

What's everyone's opinion about Casey Rodarmor's idea? Because it's going to be Open Source, the Dark Markets will be standardized and less susceptible to exploits and backdoors.

I share the same opinion as @maxibitcat:

Why would they prefer dealing with LN channel management instead of just using Monero?

Another thing is micro-payments. I'd bet that darknet market transactions aren't... "micro".

[NotATether]

Another thing is micro-payments. I'd bet that darknet market transactions aren't... "micro".

Macro, actually, with payments from several hundred to several thousands of dollars. Lightning Network is not designed to handle such a thing. Also channel creation continues to be a pain in the ass.

Besides, dark markets are intentionally designed without Javascript support for security reasons. I don't think they care about UX at all. In fact, I think all the complaints that Rodarmor mentioned are actually good things.

[JayJuanGee]

What's everyone's opinion about Casey Rodarmor's idea? Because it's going to be Open Source, the Dark Markets will be standardized and less susceptible to exploits and backdoors.

I share the same opinion as @maxibitcat:

Why would they prefer dealing with LN channel management instead of just using Monero?

To answer maxibitcat - because monero is a shitcoin.

[Wind_FURY]

What's everyone's opinion about Casey Rodarmor's idea? Because it's going to be Open Source, the Dark Markets will be standardized and less susceptible to exploits and backdoors.

I share the same opinion as @maxibitcat:

Why would they prefer dealing with LN channel management instead of just using Monero?

Another thing is micro-payments. I'd bet that darknet market transactions aren't... "micro".

Aren't most of the transactions that happens in the Dark Markets are from retail buyers? LN probably could handle $500.00 Dollar transactions maximum for thousands and thousands of users, no?

Another thing is micro-payments. I'd bet that darknet market transactions aren't... "micro".

Macro, actually, with payments from several hundred to several thousands of dollars. Lightning Network is not designed to handle such a thing. Also channel creation continues to be a pain in the ass.

Besides, dark markets are intentionally designed without Javascript support for security reasons. I don't think they care about UX at all. In fact, I think all the complaints that Rodarmor mentioned are actually good things.

They currently don't care, but if someone built a TOR plugin with better UX like what Casey envisions that's safe, secure, and private enough, I believe they will start to care.

What's everyone's opinion about Casey Rodarmor's idea? Because it's going to be Open Source, the Dark Markets will be standardized and less susceptible to exploits and backdoors.

I share the same opinion as @maxibitcat:

Why would they prefer dealing with LN channel management instead of just using Monero?

To answer maxibitcat - because monero is a shitcoin.

 

[Wind_FURY]

What's that upgrade that would make the transactions for opening/closing Lightning channels indistinct from regular Bitcoin on-chain transactions? Was that Taproot/Schnorr multi-signatures? What's its current state of usage in the Lightning Network?

I believe the developers should have something implemented as soon as possible before the government notices the layer of privacy Lightning gives for its users.

[Cricktor]

...

It's Taproot with Schnorr signatures that allows multisig transaction to appear like normal ones. I still fall short to understand Taproot/Tapscript/Schnorr stuff in detail as so far I barely had to interact with it. Excuse my ignorance but I can't even tell if any of the common Lightning nodes have implemented this magic.

Maybe have a look here: https://medium.com/interdax/what-is-taproot-and-how-will-it-benefit-bitcoin-5c8944eed8da

I closed my few LN channels quite some time ago. For my use cases too much hassle to maintain liquidity and channel balances. Phoenix wallet suits me more, totally personal experience, opinion and use case.

[Wind_FURY]

...

It's Taproot with Schnorr signatures that allows multisig transaction to appear like normal ones. I still fall short to understand Taproot/Tapscript/Schnorr stuff in detail as so far I barely had to interact with it. Excuse my ignorance but I can't even tell if any of the common Lightning nodes have implemented this magic.

Maybe have a look here: https://medium.com/interdax/what-is-taproot-and-how-will-it-benefit-bitcoin-5c8944eed8da

I closed my few LN channels quite some time ago. For my use cases too much hassle to maintain liquidity and channel balances. Phoenix wallet suits me more, totally personal experience, opinion and use case.

That's the upgrade! Lightning payment channels utilize 2-of-2 multisig addresses. Does having the feature of making them look like regular Bitcoin transactions require an upgrade in Lightning too? Or does that happen automatically of it's already available on-chain? 🤔

[Cricktor]

That's the upgrade! Lightning payment channels utilize 2-of-2 multisig addresses. Does having the feature of making them look like regular Bitcoin transactions require an upgrade in Lightning too? Or does that happen automatically of it's already available on-chain? 🤔

Your Lightning node software should handle this, in most cases that's LND or c-Lightning. Don't ask me if both Lightning node softwares do actually have implemented it already. I'm lagging behind current feature status of both. If you do it on the command line or use some fancy interface like Ride The Lighning or similar, all of those "interfaces" talk to LND or c-Lightning to create channels, close them or submit transactions and more.

[Wind_FURY]

That's the upgrade! Lightning payment channels utilize 2-of-2 multisig addresses. Does having the feature of making them look like regular Bitcoin transactions require an upgrade in Lightning too? Or does that happen automatically of it's already available on-chain? 🤔

Your Lightning node software should handle this, in most cases that's LND or c-Lightning. Don't ask me if both Lightning node softwares do actually have implemented it already. I'm lagging behind current feature status of both. If you do it on the command line or use some fancy interface like Ride The Lighning or similar, all of those "interfaces" talk to LND or c-Lightning to create channels, close them or submit transactions and more.

That's actually the question I wanted to be answered. OK, then the developers should have it implemented for the Lightning node/client/software before it can make multi-sig transactions look the same as the normal transactions. 🤔

Does anyone know if that upgrade is already being discussed in their forums/developer's mailing lists? I believe it's going to be the most important upgrade for Lightning, that will also add more benefit to Bitcoin on-chain transactions - a layer of privacy.

[dkbit98]

Surprise, surprise...Kraken exchange  drops Lightning Network in Germany due to compliance reasons.
I am sure all Lightning wallets will be next on the list, probably Phoenix wallet is the first to go.
Lightning is the fUtuRe, adopti0n c0ntinues 
https://stacker.news/items/681879

[NotATether]

Surprise, surprise...Kraken exchange  drops Lightning Network in Germany due to compliance reasons.
I am sure all Lightning wallets will be next on the list, probably Phoenix wallet is the first to go.
Lightning is the fUtuRe, adopti0n c0ntinues 
https://stacker.news/items/681879

What compliance regulations are they talking about here? I couldn't find any links. And "germany compliance lightning network" doesn't return any relevant hits on search engines either.

[LoyceV]

What compliance regulations are they talking about here?

I'd like to know that too. I'd expect local laws in my country to be close to German laws, so this surprises me. Especially since Kraken still allows Monero trading (although I don't know if they made an exception for Germany).

[BlackHatCoiner]

Lightning is the fUtuRe, adopti0n c0ntinues 

The beatings will continue until morale improves. Centralized exchanges are what the name says; not a sign of adoption. Monero, for example, is delisted on many exchanges, but is quite adopted on the Internet.

I'd like to know that too. I'd expect local laws in my country to be close to German laws, so this surprises me. Especially since Kraken still allows Monero trading (although I don't know if they made an exception for Germany).

Monero is only allowed to be withdrawn from your Kraken account if you're German, as of September 10th: https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/asset-support-for-german-clients. If you cannot surveil your citizens, how can you protect them?

[d5000]

Surprise, surprise...Kraken exchange  drops Lightning Network in Germany due to compliance reasons.

Kraken employee Marc McKirahan has posted on X that the reasons for the Lightning removal in Germany were technical in nature. He however didn't confirm a date when it will be re-enabled.

There seem to be other services like Strike (according to the answers on Stackernews) which offer the Lightning option in Germany without problems.

European regulations (MiCa) at this moment do not require exchanges to delist Monero or Lightning. This could however change in 2027 due the AMLD6 regulation which forbids services similar to mixers and also mentions "anonymity-enhancing coins", which is however still not completely approved afaik.

[ABCbits]

What compliance regulations are they talking about here?

I'd like to know that too. I'd expect local laws in my country to be close to German laws, so this surprises me. Especially since Kraken still allows Monero trading (although I don't know if they made an exception for Germany).

After reading whole stacker.news page and reading some mentioned link, i would speculate it's related with 2 new services/company used by Kraken.

How does this impact me?

German clients who wish to continue using crypto and fiat (bank deposits and withdrawals) services will be required to consent to Payward Ireland Limited and DLT Finance processing their personal data for the purpose of complying with GDPR. As a legal requirement, clients will need to re-verify their identity.

[Wind_FURY]

Surprise, surprise...Kraken exchange  drops Lightning Network in Germany due to compliance reasons.
I am sure all Lightning wallets will be next on the list, probably Phoenix wallet is the first to go.
Lightning is the fUtuRe, adopti0n c0ntinues 
https://stacker.news/items/681879

The layer of privacy like what "anon" mentioned is probably the actual reason, no?

If that's true, then that's actually good to know. Because if, "lightning breaks chainanalysis", then they either force the users to abandon the Lightning Network, but if they can't do that, they hire a service to follow transactions or monitor the network themselves WHICH will require them to buy Bitcoin and open channels - Therefore provide liquidity in Lightning.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[hv_]

Never will work

https://youtu.be/5mgxdnxY3eE

[Wind_FURY]

Never will work

https://youtu.be/5mgxdnxY3eE

?

Furthermore, Stablecoins will be back in Bitcoin through Taproot Assets + The Lightning Network.

This will be possible through a special node that the developers call "Edge Nodes". They are nodes that can route payments in Taproot Assets across LN.

https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taproot-assets/edge-nodes

BUT there's a trade-off - it's a hub-and-spoke model, although I'm not sure if it's actually necessary to be one.

What do the more technical users believe?

[NeuroticFish]

After postponing it 1000 times, I want to give LN a proper chance, i.e. actually install it and using it.
I've read it a lot and since I don't have a computer that runs 24/7, I decided to try out Phoenix wallet, especially as it also offer (at least on paper) testnet capabilities.

And now I have 2 issues:

1. If you have a proper option/direction for meaningfully setting up LN on a Windows computer that's not running 24/7, please give me a direction to look / check what I've missed (from my understanding a LN node should be on, even if maybe shortly, pretty much every single day).
Since I expect to spend on LN when I'm not at home and this computer is off, I guess I should not bother. Is this correct?

2. As I said, I was looking into Phoenix for Android. And one of the things I've tried was to send funds onto Phoenix (Testet) and see if I can recover them. So I have 1000 sat on Phoenix for Testnet. It doesn't swap because it detects a very big amount of fees I need.

2a. I'd like to see those 1000 sats on a wallet I obtain by recovering from the 12-words seed, but I failed. Electrum doesn't show Taproot (or I don't know how to do that), and on Sparrow 1.9 I also didn't manage to recover the wallet. What am I doing wrong? What derivation paths I should use?

2b. After I get step 2a work, I'd like to get a channel made on testnet, for a taste of it. Can it be done with less than the fees Phoenix is estimating now (141,616 sat)?