Dutch first to propose money laundering laws over crypto and cash limits

[samdan777712]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

[bitmover]

These laws can't do much against bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies like Libra, Ripple, Ethereum, which has a company behind them, must obey those laws or the companies will be shut down. There is nothing to shut down in btc., As there is no company

[figmentofmyass]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

what exactly does the bill say re crypto? i see the proposed bans on cash transactions but no details about the proposed crypto regulation. the info in this article is pretty vague.

will the parliament just rubber stamp any bill the finance and justice ministers hand them? or is there a chance this won't pass?

[avikz]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

Can you please share a reference of this news?? I have tried to search google but unable to get any recent news. There was apparently no legal framework present around cryptos in Netherlands. So just wondering if anything has changed in recent times! Also like what Bitmover has pointed out that, such laws can't be enforced on bitcoin because of its decentralized and anonymous nature! Only centralized currencies will be affected! However, if you can share the reference link, the matter will become more clearer!

[Lucius]

Can you please share a reference of this news?? I have tried to search google but unable to get any recent news.

Strange that you could not find it, it is even in post above your, posted by figmentofmyass


This proposal is not only aim to cryptocurrency, but on money laundering in general. Fact they they want to ban cash payments over 3000 euros and 500 euro banknotes is actually something that makes sense if you want to effectively fight against money laundering. The Netherlands does not even recognize crypto as currency, I think this is a bit too exaggerated.

[samdan777712]

https://cointelegraph.com/news/dutch-ministers-call-for-cryptocurrency-cash-use-regulations

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/kamerstukken/2019/06/30/aanbiedingsbrief-plan-van-aanpak-witwassen

The exact proposal is in dutch, but it basically implies that they will regulate wallet providers. They are alluding to the wording of FATF.

[Theb]

Them being the home of the International Court of Justice shows that they want to be a good example when it comes to abiding the orders from a international body, but there's nothing final yet and I believe that it's just the Dutch minister's proposal to implement such regulations. If the proposal will push through with their country I will be nothing more compared to what other countries have now and that is KYCs as well as establishments such as banks being required to share information from their suspicious clients. The way I see it is there is really nothing to worry about.

[LeGaulois]

The way I see it is there is really nothing to worry about.

That's about it. People tend to overthink when it's about regulations and it's a proposition, the time it becomes a fact can take years xD.

It doesn't necessarily mean to ban or to allow cryptos. This means defining a legal framework for this emerging industry. And it goes through, how to classify it legally, fiscally, and so on.  And this is what the newbies were mainly asking for: "we should regulate BTC so it will PUMP to the moon!"
You asked for regulations here it is. If people want to consider Bitcoin as an investment, it is perfectly legitimate to tax earnings. Why an investment in real estate should be taxed but not on another such as Bitcoin or whatever you want.

Germany has a very low tax on capital gains related to cryptos. And perhaps 0% if you owned the coins for X years. I'm sure they're realizing now all the cash that could enter in their pockets via the taxes, VTA,... and they want to change that to tax people from the day 1 as others investments. Exchanges apply KYC, they can't do or force doing better, they don't even know how to.

[dothebeats]

I don't see anything crucial for the development of crypto and transfers in here since other countries have already proposed something similar--if not completely the same--for cryptocurrencies. If anything, this is consumer protection, and it's not yet finalized if it's only proposed. Perhaps they just want to keep things straight and remind people that the Netherlands is not a breeding ground for illicit activities and they support the development of crypto by prepping up a legal framework that could benefit both consumers and the services.

[jseverson]

These laws can't do much against bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies like Libra, Ripple, Ethereum, which has a company behind them, must obey those laws or the companies will be shut down. There is nothing to shut down in btc., As there is no company

While that's true, they can crack down on entities that facilitate Bitcoin trading, like exchanges. This is specifically what OP was upset about, considering he referenced Deribit.

Anyway, are they only banning cash payments of more than 3000 Euros, or transfers in general? The latter seems overly restrictive, and it would make much more sense if they flagged them like the (well, most of the) rest of the world.

[timerland]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

They're definitely not the first country to do this. There has been a general tightening across the world in regards to the use of cash, which is one of the reasons why governments are pushing towards cashlessness so that transactions are more easily tracked.

Thresholds on the amount of cash you can transact before you have to report your activities to regulatory bodies exist in the US, and most other western nations. The only thing that's changed is probably the quantity threshold being lowered.

It's probably a contributing factor for Localbitcoins closing down on in person cash trades as well, albeit that was in the EU. I would not be surprised if derivatives trading platforms get targeted next, though, it could really be anyone.

I wouldn't say it's disappointing - draconian regulations should be expected, and it's not the end of the world, especially given that decentralized exchanges and P2P trading are going to be the trend in the future, that simply can't be fully censored whatever the new regulations add to the difficulty to transacting.

[Kemarit]

These laws can't do much against bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies like Libra, Ripple, Ethereum, which has a company behind them, must obey those laws or the companies will be shut down. There is nothing to shut down in btc., As there is no company

While that's true, they can crack down on entities that facilitate Bitcoin trading, like exchanges. This is specifically what OP was upset about, considering he referenced Deribit.

And probably this could be very well the excuse that they are going to pull and eventually all crypto related will go under the radar of the government.

Anyway, are they only banning cash payments of more than 3000 Euros, or transfers in general? The latter seems overly restrictive, and it would make much more sense if they flagged them like the (well, most of the) rest of the world.

I think a lot of countries have cash threshold regulations, so I wouldn't say it's overly restrictive at this point. But applying it to crypto is a different thing though, as I have mentioned, this is to take the control back to the government.

[jdarren]

Do you think the Dutch would be open to implementing technology such as proof-of-knowledge which is what cyber security company ciphertrace suggested https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/ciphertrace-shyft-team-id-protecting-solution-fatf-crypto-guidance

I know they are working closely with legislation in the US

[Schirer]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

Can you be more specific?
As i red there are no recommendations on 3000 Euros or USD . They require exchanges to save data on transfer over 1000 USD or EUr , dont remember. And give information out over 15k transfer to tax agencies.

[buwaytress]

I've just asked as well about this and the people I know in compliance say this doesn't actually mean anything until they get full clarification from DNB. Their clients have been asking as well, since the news been making its usual rounds. That will come with a full document publicly available, so until that shows up on their website, and all registered cos get the alert, this doesn't mean anything.

P.S. The Bitcoin ATM machine closest to me still has a 10k eur DAILY limit without verification. Don't know if actually true though.

[Arkham Knight]

Them being the home of the International Court of Justice shows that they want to be a good example when it comes to abiding the orders from a international body, but there's nothing final yet and I believe that it's just the Dutch minister's proposal to implement such regulations. If the proposal will push through with their country I will be nothing more compared to what other countries have now and that is KYCs as well as establishments such as banks being required to share information from their suspicious clients. The way I see it is there is really nothing to worry about.

Agree. In my country, you can't use btc exchangers unless you are KYC-verified. There is nothing to be afraid of you are doing nothing illegal. This is only to push the money launderers away and clean the crypto space and tell the whole world that we are regulated and prove that we want order and not cater to bunch of criminals using crypto for their own advantage.

[Harlot]

This could just be nothing. I know way back 2017 the European Union introduce AML standards woth a threshold of 10,000 euros to crypto exchanges and bank transfers related to crypto but based from what I see in the forum our members there doesn't expect any changes brought from it, I even doubt they are heavily enforcing it. At the end of the day they are just  anogher organization that has brought up rules that has been enforced for a long time now, without any major changes I don't see how it could affect their crypto industry that bad.

[teddyelwyn]

Interesting. I feel like there might be a country that will implement laws for these type of things before the US anyways. We are so slow to move on adoption. I also wonder if we will adopt AML technology like that created by blockchain forensics company Ciphertrace because it might be better, safer and more trusted than the government just coming in and slapping laws on this.

[marcbitcoins]

I truly thought I had more time, the dutch are immensely disappointing. They literally are the first country implying the FATF stuff not to mention banning over 3000 cash transfers. They will come down hard on deribit. Simply awful news.

This is really hard for those who wish to become rich thru Crypto currency investments as they will need more accounts if they will aim for prosperity. Maybe the cash transfer limit is just good for the day then you can make another transfer in the other day so better if you could share the links for our common understanding.