Can you see the blockchain being used to register votes in general elections?

[bocobit]

How about taking it a step further and use the block chain to make a autonomous government.     The public ledger can be used for direct democracy; all citizens get to vote on legislation!

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

I am a coder.

If anyone wants to work with me to start this project and create it together, let me know.

You should put together a white paper to start the discussion.

I view the votecoin as a short lived blockchain. With registered nodes. 1 genesis block per election. Maybe even a proof of stake. Coins handed out per id in the same manner as the old system

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

How about taking it a step further and use the block chain to make a autonomous government.     The public ledger can be used for direct democracy; all citizens get to vote on legislation!

I love it. Please expand on your idea.

[rmines]

You aren't actually serious about this idea or are you?
There is almost nothing in common between the blockchain and a government.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

You aren't actually serious about this idea or are you?
There is almost nothing in common between the blockchain and a government.

Also, expand on your idea please.

[MWD64]

That I agree with fellow slave.

lol. I think you'd dig my radio show.

So EVEN if we get a votecoin it still would go up against the fucking electoral collage. WTF?? It's their system.

Ron Paul was the last guy since Kennedy who really had a good heart, and the GOP shut him out. The Democrats did the same thing to Dennis Kucinich, who is sort of like the Democrat's Ron Paul. The Democrats also basically made Dennis retire from politics.

Speaking of Croatian-Americans (Kucinich), we interviewed Krist Novoselic from Nirvana on our radio show. The first hour was all about rock 'n' roll, and it was great! The second hour was all him trying to tell us how to "fix democracy" and it got very silly very fast.

That guy is passionate about polishing the brass on the sinking ship of the state. He even wrote a book on fixing democracy and voting. He's also a millionaire. If anyone really is going to try to do this silly crap of "fixing" voting with the blockchain, you should get that guy on your side. He'd probably love it.

Here's the whole interview:
Krist Novoselic Talks About Nirvana, Flipper, And His Ideas On Changing Democracy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJKIul48mK8

When voting for "the lesser of two evils" (which is part of what got Obama elected), people who love Bitcoin should remember that Obama's second in line, Joe Biden, tried to outlaw encryption in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Internet_privacy_and_file_sharing

 If he'd succeeded, Bitcoin never would have gotten off the ground. Biden is also pro-SOPA, anti-file sharing, pro-FBI, and anti-freedom. Obama is all too, but hides it better. And Obama WAS the lesser of two evils in that race. Voting for the lesser of two evils (which is all you're going to be offered, even if you eliminate voter machine fraud) is like saying "would you rather get kicked in the balls, or punched in the face? You HAVE to pick one or the other!"

[phillipsjk]

Electronic Voting, where: you want to keep votes secret, but prevent cheating; is a very hard problem. That page quotes none other than Bruce Schneier: "a secure Internet voting system is theoretically possible, but it would be the first secure networked application ever created in the history of computers."

Bitcoin+CoinJoin gets tantalizingly close. But to be honest, I don't completely understand how Gmaxwell's proposed mitigations would work.

Secure e-voting also has the issue of voter intimidation. If a voter can prove how they voted, somebody can pay or threaten them based on how they vote.

If you are interested direct democracy, there is liquid feedback, but it is still centralized as far as I know.

[MWD64]

If you are interested direct democracy, there is liquid feedback, but it is still centralized as far as I know.

Direct Democracy would lead to very quick economic collapse. If people could suggest any bill, and vote on any bill, people who don't want to work would vote successfully to tax people who work 100% of their income. Everyone would quit their job. And the only jobs left would be cops to enforce the taxation. And if no one HAD to work, the only people willing to be cops would be ultra-violent goons who work as cops because they get a kick out of hurtting people. (Hmmmm....I think a lot of them already do that. But not ALL of them.)

Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? Yup. It would be a lot like that. Though it's headed that way anyway under the current system. But Idiocracy takes place 500 years from now, which seems about right. Direct Democracy would get us there in 20 years.

[MWD64]

You aren't actually serious about this idea or are you?
There is almost nothing in common between the blockchain and a government.

^ This person gets it.
+9.

[b¡tco¡n]

There could be merit to this idea, BUT a major stumbling block is who is going to do the mining? Miners need to be paid for their hardware and electricity bills, so the coin needs to have value. Where will it get the value from. Speculation? If not then the voting coin needs to become a mainstream coin.

Unless you expect people to charitably mine a coin that isn't worth anything in the name of democracy. Or maybe the government could do all the mining. 

[LAMarcellus]

Bitcoin already is the best system of voting in existence.

Voting with money is natural, organic, and harmoniously aligned with "the free market". Voting with money IS THE INVISIBLE HAND!!!


Why would you want to ever allow me to have a say in your affairs in any other way?!?! Or at least in any way other than at the most local level??

Every money you spend is a vote. It is your most important vote.

Political voting is fraudulent, harmful, and always involves coercion by the majority.

Fuck that!


That being said sure I can imagine a blockchain based voting system. However I don't imagine it to be used in the political realm.
Rather I see it as  way to maintain a ledger of shareholder votes for use within a corporation. The key here being voluntary voting rather than coercion based voting.

[MWD64]

Bitcoin already is the best system of voting in existence.

Voting with money is natural, organic, and harmoniously aligned with "the free market". Voting with money IS THE INVISIBLE HAND!!!


Why would you want to ever allow me to have a say in your affairs in any other way?!?! Or at least in any way other than at the most local level??

Every money you spend is a vote. It is your most important vote.

Political voting is fraudulent, harmful, and always involves coercion by the majority.

Fuck that!


That being said sure I can imagine a blockchain based voting system. However I don't imagine it to be used in the political realm.
Rather I see it as  way to maintain a ledger of shareholder votes for use within a corporation. The key here being voluntary voting rather than coercion based voting.

^ This.

Bitcoin (and all the other little kittens of the blockchain) will "vote" the government out of existence by reducing and then eliminating the "need" for it.

Regardless, it will be a process, not an event.  I even predict that at least one of the two major candidates in the 2016 presidential US elections will accept Bitcoin for campaign donations.

That is SO square!


MWD

[MWD64]

There could be merit to this idea, BUT a major stumbling block is who is going to do the mining? Miners need to be paid for their hardware and electricity bills, so the coin needs to have value. Where will it get the value from. Speculation? If not then the voting coin needs to become a mainstream coin.

Unless you expect people to charitably mine a coin that isn't worth anything in the name of democracy. Or maybe the government could do all the mining. 

^ this = "who will streamline the invisible chains that hold us back?"

[MWD64]

Do you trust regulations?

No.

I can probably write such an app if I had something to gain from it, but I don't.
I don't trust poly-tics!

I started to reply here about using the blockchain for useful, non-government "voting" type things. But split it off, here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518753

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

There could be merit to this idea, BUT a major stumbling block is who is going to do the mining? Miners need to be paid for their hardware and electricity bills, so the coin needs to have value. Where will it get the value from. Speculation? If not then the voting coin needs to become a mainstream coin.

Unless you expect people to charitably mine a coin that isn't worth anything in the name of democracy. Or maybe the government could do all the mining.  

What I'm talking about is a possible replacement for the current voting machines. There is no need for a coin to have value. There is no speculation. Who cares about energy costs any more then the cost to light the rooms that you do the voting in. If votecoin technology was used in the poll booth the blockchain would be a short lived entity. You get 1 coin which equals one vote. You spend it in the wallet of the person you wish to succeed. The voting can be scalable to multiple precincts all of which connect to known registered nodes. Anyone can see the number of votes per precinct in real time and it can still be done anonymously; or atleast as anonymous as voting with a ballet. I just don't buy it that you can't do this less anonymous then the current system.

Also I see no real difference between running a votecoin as a proof of stake with premine or proof of work.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

How about taking it a step further and use the block chain to make a autonomous government.     The public ledger can be used for direct democracy; all citizens get to vote on legislation!

This has got me thinking. What if the US constitution + bill of rights was written/created like blockchain technology? What would it look like?

The US constitution is supposed to be a contract. As we are all learning the blockchain can be leveraged as a contract. So if the US constitution was setup like a blockchain protocol then wouldn't new laws have to automatically follow the rules outlined by the protocol?

I'm not too positive that the US gov is all that broken. There is an excellent framework as outlined by Ron Paul however those rules rarely get followed and politicians make bogus laws that contradict the original contract, IE the US constitution. If people just followed the original protocol rules the US wouldn't be such a damn bully on the world stage. Same with banking. We DONT need new rules to outlaw wallstreet greed, just enforce the rules we have.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

How about taking it a step further and use the block chain to make a autonomous government.     The public ledger can be used for direct democracy; all citizens get to vote on legislation!

Every driver already follows an autonomous program known as the traffic light. And where as yes that system is centralized, mostly everyone still does what the light (a traffic protocol)says.

What systems can be autonomous?
DMV?
Mail?
Social Security?


How much administration can be autonomous? Really alot of our problems are because we can't hold our leaders accountable.

Isn't much of government just allocating and spending funds? The Blockchain can make this transparent. All of the fraud and theft and waste that occurs from corrupt politicians who get to hide their budgets is out in the open with transparency.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

If you are interested direct democracy, there is liquid feedback, but it is still centralized as far as I know.

Direct Democracy would lead to very quick economic collapse. If people could suggest any bill, and vote on any bill, people who don't want to work would vote successfully to tax people who work 100% of their income. Everyone would quit their job. And the only jobs left would be cops to enforce the taxation. And if no one HAD to work, the only people willing to be cops would be ultra-violent goons who work as cops because they get a kick out of hurtting people. (Hmmmm....I think a lot of them already do that. But not ALL of them.)

Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? Yup. It would be a lot like that. Though it's headed that way anyway under the current system. But Idiocracy takes place 500 years from now, which seems about right. Direct Democracy would get us there in 20 years.

I don't agree with this.

First off we already have a politcial class that votes for whatever the hell the corporations tell them to vote for. This has lead to a situation where the people are not represented. Congress is Supposed to be a representation of the people but its not even close by a long shot. Laws already are unbalanced. Blockchain technology could better represent the people then congress.

Second, why would I vote for a law that goes against my own values or self interests. I would never vote for a law to kill 50% of children under age 10 because I was fearful of them using too much food. With direct democracy couldn't someone propose such an insane law? People already do propose lots of laws that some don't agree with. Pot is now legal, why because people wanted it. Crack is still illegal, why because thats how people want it. If most people work why the hell would they vote to fuck themselves by %100 taxation. I don't buy it.

Third in our system of using money most people HAVE to work. They need money so they work. Nobody is going to quit their jobs until you give us free land, houses, food, clothes, energy, etc. No need for jobs when you have a star trek replicator. But wait they did still have jobs, they worked on the enterprise.

[MWD64]

No need for jobs till we have a star trek replicator. But wait they did still have jobs, they worked on the enterprise.

The 3D printer is the beta of the 1.0 Star Trek replicator. And plenty of politicians, left and right, want to regulate 3D printers because Cody Wilson did a hilarious bit of political theater with one.

He's brilliant, his gun is junk, you could make a better single-shot .380 weapon in your garage right now using things you probably already have in your house. But ALL politicians are so damn scared of change, and scared of the slaves having a tiny bit of power and anonymity, that most of them were scared shittless by the 3D printer.

Pot is now legal, why because people wanted it.

Not in my state. Because cops have too much fun and make too much money kicking in doors for it still. Pot won't be legal until 2016 when the Democrats realize it will get them elected, that the demographic has reached that majority. And they'll look cool and hip for doing it, and everyone will forget that Obama LAUGHED at a kid at a town hall meeting who asked when Obama was going to honor his campaign promise to decriminalize. Obama said "Oh, I don't think we'll be doing THAT."

All politicians want you and dead or in a cage. They'll do it so slowly you don't notice. And that includes the fact that when they "legalize" pot nationwide, they'll tax and regulate it so much that it will cost more than it does now places it's still illegal. That's already happening in Colorado and Washington.

MWD

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

No need for jobs till we have a star trek replicator. But wait they did still have jobs, they worked on the enterprise.

The 3D printer is the beta of the 1.0 Star Trek replicator. And plenty of politicians, left and right, want to regulate 3D printers because Cody Wilson did a hilarious bit of political theater with a 3D printer.

He's brilliant, his gun is junk, you could make a better single-shot .380 weapon in your garage right now using things you probably already have in your house. But ALL politicians are so damn scared of change that most of them were scared shittless by the 3D printer.

I like the rumors of the drug printer. That would be a hoot.  http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jul/21/chemputer-that-prints-out-drugs

Although growing your own food can be thought of as decentralized food production. And growing your own ganja could be considered making your own medicine.

Decentralize everything..