thoughts on switching to ASIC mining

[Deeped]

Hi everyone - I am thinking of shutting down a sizable GPU farm and switching everything over to ASIC.  Only issue is, while power is free, it can only be 120V wiring, no way to change that.  Breakers are 20 amps, with a couple 15 amps.

So I think any S9 will be ideal?  Whereas the more recent ones can only be 220 volts due to power supply being integrated with the unit.

Other unit I am considering is Z11, because judging from specs, I think it will do ok 120 volt 15 amps (and certainly on 20 amp breaker).

I was ready to start buying used S9s from Alibaba, but now that I see the new ones are only $350 with PSU direct from Bitmain, I guess it's better to just keep running things as they are until the next Bitmain order?

Also I am hesitant about Zcash (Z11), as not only is difficulty there going up rapidly, but price is also going down against BTC.  With BTC current activity, I am pretty sure we'll be seeing new highs by end of year.  I want to be aligned with that by having all machines that generate BTC directly, ideally.  Best I can do now is point machines at NiceHash instead of mining alts directly.

Thank you anyone for any thoughts, buying advice, etc.  I guess the downside with ASICs is still the same two years later - one has to plan on replacing all machines at LEAST once a year to stay relevant?  And ideally every 6 months, or every 3 months, and sell the old gear ASAP.  So, maybe not worth it at all if I don't want to be constantly trading up like that.

Also I don't know if anything has changed with Bitmain buying recently?  I saw they now require ID upload - says passport but I used driver's license, I assume that works.  I know one has to be "ready" to buy when the window for ordering opens up!

[Artemis3]

Hi everyone - I am thinking of shutting down a sizable GPU farm and switching everything over to ASIC.  Only issue is, while power is free, it can only be 120V wiring, no way to change that.  Breakers are 20 amps, with a couple 15 amps.

So I think any S9 will be ideal?  Whereas the more recent ones can only be 220 volts due to power supply being integrated with the unit.

Other unit I am considering is Z11, because judging from specs, I think it will do ok 120 volt 15 amps (and certainly on 20 amp breaker).

I was ready to start buying used S9s from Alibaba, but now that I see the new ones are only $350 with PSU direct from Bitmain, I guess it's better to just keep running things as they are until the next Bitmain order?

Also I am hesitant about Zcash (Z11), as not only is difficulty there going up rapidly, but price is also going down against BTC.  With BTC current activity, I am pretty sure we'll be seeing new highs by end of year.  I want to be aligned with that by having all machines that generate BTC directly, ideally.  Best I can do now is point machines at NiceHash instead of mining alts directly.

Thank you anyone for any thoughts, buying advice, etc.  I guess the downside with ASICs is still the same two years later - one has to plan on replacing all machines at LEAST once a year to stay relevant?  And ideally every 6 months, or every 3 months, and sell the old gear ASAP.  So, maybe not worth it at all if I don't want to be constantly trading up like that.

Also I don't know if anything has changed with Bitmain buying recently?  I saw they now require ID upload - says passport but I used driver's license, I assume that works.  I know one has to be "ready" to buy when the window for ordering opens up!

If you are serious about going with asics, you have to switch that voltage. With 120v you are going to face many issues and spend a lot of more money.
An asic miner that would normally take like 8a on 240v would  pulling above 16a on 12v, beyond the 80% safety marging (your 20a circuits won't do).

And you are going to spend a fortune in PSUs, and risk additional problems if you use dual psus or such per miner.

Only solution i could see for this if you are stubborn with voltage, is don't use full miners. Perhaps just use one or two boards per S9, and with BraiinsOS make it run as efficient low power as possible, to consume the least amount of power per hash which might be accommodated with a single psu per unit. And they would also be more quiet, but of course take more space (you'd need more cases).

Yes, at some point ago they implemented KYC procedures.

You probably won't ROI them that quick unless the price suddenly spikes, maybe plan for 1 year or more to be on the safe side. Also the asic manufacturers are a bit slow too, it also depends on market demand and bitcoin price. GPUs are more flexible there.

[Deeped]

Well, I cannot change the wiring, that is out of my control.  The electricity is free but it has to be 120 volts only, unfortunately.

Anyway, the S9 can work on 120 volts just fine it appears, from all the various threads I've read.  (on 20 amp anyway; 15 amp is pushing it)  Maybe not much room to overclock, but 1400-1500 watts is pretty much a bit less than a space heater or many hair dryers on high (hair dryer is short term load I know, but space heaters are not, and I have many running in winter 24/7 with no shut off time at all).

Z11 wattage seems to be right on the edge of doable on 120V/20 amp... (1580 watts?)  I could do the minis to distribute the load better, but they are not cost-effective.

Glad you mentioned that Braiins OS - is that preferable now to that bulldozer one (don't remember the exact name) or ASICBoost (https://support.bitmain.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011930734-ASICBoost-firmware-for-Antminer-S9-series-and-T9-)?  Also, I read somewhere that newer batches don't allow custom firmware?  But also seemed that meant, they cannot be reflashed, but you can run custom firmware from SD card still, is that accurate?

I do tune my GPUs to fit better on the PSUs I have, so if I can count on being able to do that on S9, that would be sweet!

Final question - you say plan on a year to ROI?  The SHA-256 difficulty is not rising as fast as it used to though... Right now whattomine estimates $4.30 a day for 13 TH/s... rounding down to $4, that's $120 a month - even if I pay $600 per machine, and difficulty rises 25% in six months, I think by month 7 they're covered?  (don't forget, electricity cost is zero)  Or you think difficulty will still somehow double if BTC rises?  I was kind of thinking, maybe the SHA-256 hashrate is starting to get to a slower growth - newer machines aren't much faster on a per watt/joule basis... although if BTC goes to $50k, then I guess, sure, any old miner will find a place to get turned on again...

As a whole, I dunno.  It's hard to predict if GPUs will slow again.  Or if they'll magically rise.  (hard to see how, alts are taking a beating every time BTC rises lately, and NOT recovering when it dips!)  It would be a lot more exciting to get several Z11s, but riskier of course since they might double the capable hashrate in a few batches from now.  Whereas S9s will probably retain some decent used value if BTC stays the same, and one S9 at current earn rates would pretty much equal one GPU machine, for 1/5th the cost.

Edit: was just looking at a hashrate chart again - tough to predict.  It did go to all time highs recently.  But hard to tell if it will now grow as fast as it did in 2017.  I don't know if it's possible, if SHA-256 ASICs are slowing their efficiency increases?
https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/hash-rate?timespan=2years

[maxime506]

Well, I cannot change the wiring, that is out of my control.  The electricity is free but it has to be 120 volts only, unfortunately.

Anyway, the S9 can work on 120 volts just fine it appears, from all the various threads I've read.  (on 20 amp anyway; 15 amp is pushing it)  Maybe not much room to overclock, but 1400-1500 watts is pretty much a bit less than a space heater or many hair dryers on high (hair dryer is short term load I know, but space heaters are not, and I have many running in winter 24/7 with no shut off time at all).

Z11 wattage seems to be right on the edge of doable on 120V/20 amp... (1580 watts?)  I could do the minis to distribute the load better, but they are not cost-effective.

Glad you mentioned that Braiins OS - is that preferable now to that bulldozer one (don't remember the exact name) or ASICBoost (https://support.bitmain.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011930734-ASICBoost-firmware-for-Antminer-S9-series-and-T9-)?  Also, I read somewhere that newer batches don't allow custom firmware?  But also seemed that meant, they cannot be reflashed, but you can run custom firmware from SD card still, is that accurate?

I do tune my GPUs to fit better on the PSUs I have, so if I can count on being able to do that on S9, that would be sweet!

Final question - you say plan on a year to ROI?  The SHA-256 difficulty is not rising as fast as it used to though... Right now whattomine estimates $4.30 a day for 13 TH/s... rounding down to $4, that's $120 a month - even if I pay $600 per machine, and difficulty rises 25% in six months, I think by month 7 they're covered?  (don't forget, electricity cost is zero)  Or you think difficulty will still somehow double if BTC rises?  I was kind of thinking, maybe the SHA-256 hashrate is starting to get to a slower growth - newer machines aren't much faster on a per watt/joule basis... although if BTC goes to $50k, then I guess, sure, any old miner will find a place to get turned on again...

As a whole, I dunno.  It's hard to predict if GPUs will slow again.  Or if they'll magically rise.  (hard to see how, alts are taking a beating every time BTC rises lately, and NOT recovering when it dips!)  It would be a lot more exciting to get several Z11s, but riskier of course since they might double the capable hashrate in a few batches from now.  Whereas S9s will probably retain some decent used value if BTC stays the same, and one S9 at current earn rates would pretty much equal one GPU machine, for 1/5th the cost.

Edit: was just looking at a hashrate chart again - tough to predict.  It did go to all time highs recently.  But hard to tell if it will now grow as fast as it did in 2017.  I don't know if it's possible, if SHA-256 ASICs are slowing their efficiency increases?
https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/hash-rate?timespan=2years

Have you mined for Nicehash before with your GPU miners and how do you find it?

[nsummy]

Personally I wouldn't buy an altcoin asic.  There is too much volatility and I think at the end of the day, bitcoin will be king.  I just can't see the alts moving up at the same rate at bitcoin.  as far as the electrical aspect, you the 15 amp breaker will get you 1800w and the 20 amp will get you 2400w.  The S17s have lower power modes that go all the way down to 1500w, and I think they peak at around 2200, so you could conceivably still use those.  And really the power limit could even go higher, as you can power asic miners using more than one PSU, so you could have one PSU on one circuit, and one on another, and that would alleviate problems.

[Michail9090]

Now bitcoin will fall to 6-7 thousand dollars and you can buy asic miners. And now the price tag is too high.

[buyqualityplr]

I personally stopped with Asics, the electricity costs were too high in South Africa and I think I started at a bad time just before Bitcoin took major dips. I think GPU is safer and holds it's value for longer.

[babos8383]

it's high time to think about buying asic, if you are a miner. now only they can earn a normal amount. you can't do that on video cards

[adaseb]

I assume that you live somewhere in North America with 120V power.

There are a few ways you can get 240V. One way is to use the stove and dryer plug. Those are always 240V.

Another way is you can probably just join 2 seperate breaker outlets which are 120V. Now you should consult with an electrian first before you do this because I don't know if its going to be up to code and everything. So do this under your own risk.

But I believe the Stove and Dryer plugs which are 240V are basically 2 separate 120V joined together with a larger fuse. However the wiring is probably a different gauge so you will be stuck with a smaller 15A instead of the 40A which are used by Stoves/Dryer.  Again I am not an expert so ask an electrician first.

[Deeped]

it's high time to think about buying asic, if you are a miner. now only they can earn a normal amount. you can't do that on video cards

Well now is the time to order, isn't it - was going to order but Bitmain's prices are just too high, $480 for the S9k, plus import?  I can get it for the same INCLUDING power supply on eBay from US sellers, so no point really.  6-8 months to ROI even with no power costs?  No thanks.  Difficulty will be 30-50% harder by then too.  There's just no margins left basically.  Maybe a huge facility with almost free power power and that cares enough to spend the $480 to hopefully eek out double that amount over the next three years of running the machine.

If Bitcoin were to double in the year, doesn't even make sense to buy one ASIC... difficulty will only pile on faster.  Even in 2017 when it was all time high, difficult was much lower than it is now.  The demand has been met, it would look like... only thin margins remain.

GPUs are still worth 40% of what they cost, but man, they'll keep dropping too.  Already been a year since the 20xx series were announced.

[adaseb]

it's high time to think about buying asic, if you are a miner. now only they can earn a normal amount. you can't do that on video cards

Well now is the time to order, isn't it - was going to order but Bitmain's prices are just too high, $480 for the S9k, plus import?  I can get it for the same INCLUDING power supply on eBay from US sellers, so no point really.  6-8 months to ROI even with no power costs?  No thanks.  Difficulty will be 30-50% harder by then too.  There's just no margins left basically.  Maybe a huge facility with almost free power power and that cares enough to spend the $480 to hopefully eek out double that amount over the next three years of running the machine.

If Bitcoin were to double in the year, doesn't even make sense to buy one ASIC... difficulty will only pile on faster.  Even in 2017 when it was all time high, difficult was much lower than it is now.  The demand has been met, it would look like... only thin margins remain.

GPUs are still worth 40% of what they cost, but man, they'll keep dropping too.  Already been a year since the 20xx series were announced.

If you are worried about losing money on hardware then you should just stick with GPUs. They will always have a market for Gamers and Youtube Video renders, while ASICs on the other hand become expensive door stops.

If you buy a bunch of second hand GPUs these days they won't go down in value too much unless you are getting the high end Nvidia stuff. If you buy a new ASIC today then most likely you will lose alot of money if BTC starts a bear market in the near future.

So you are better off just not buying ASICs, especially since its going to be a hassle getting 240V.

[joblo]

Another way is you can probably just join 2 seperate breaker outlets which are 120V. Now you should consult with an electrian first before you do this because I don't know if its going to be up to code and everything. So do this under your own risk.

Depending on the jurisdiction you would have to do more than "consult" an electrician.
You nay be required to have an electrician either do the work or certify it.

But yes 240V is just using the +120 and -120 (red & black) with heavier gauge wiring and a
bigger dual pole breaker. That's how the stove and dryer do it.

That's a lot of capital overhead for a product with a limited lifecycle.

[wedgenix]

Another way is you can probably just join 2 seperate breaker outlets which are 120V. Now you should consult with an electrian first before you do this because I don't know if its going to be up to code and everything. So do this under your own risk.

Depending on the jurisdiction you would have to do more than "consult" an electrician.
You nay be required to have an electrician either do the work or certify it.

But yes 240V is just using the +120 and -120 (red & black) with heavier gauge wiring and a
bigger dual pole breaker. That's how the stove and dryer do it.

That's a lot of capital overhead for a product with a limited lifecycle.

lol @ +120 and -120 on an AC circuit ffs.

Yeah, just take one leg from 1 breaker and the other leg instead of a neutral from another breaker and you can get a 240v circuit from a couple 120v outlets....make your own power cable that plug into both outlets to do it and it's done...but don't call it +120 and -120 lol...no such thing.  If you don't understand how to make a 240v cable from neighboring 120v circuits then you shouldn't try it.  Sidenote:  "heavier gauge" is absolute nonsense since you are effectively halving the current versus a single 120v circuit.  For crying out loud...if you don't understand basic household electrical wiring don't go giving fucking advice on customizing someone's home where they likely wish to sleep without risk of being burned to the ground.

Hell, I run 240v through "normal" 120v receptacles in my mining room.  You can do a whole bunch of shit if you know wtf you are doing....but to "give advice" and say stupid shit like +120 line and -120 line???  wtf?  Next you will call it 2 phase....ugh.

[Deeped]

it's high time to think about buying asic, if you are a miner. now only they can earn a normal amount. you can't do that on video cards

Well now is the time to order, isn't it - was going to order but Bitmain's prices are just too high, $480 for the S9k, plus import?  I can get it for the same INCLUDING power supply on eBay from US sellers, so no point really.  6-8 months to ROI even with no power costs?  No thanks.  Difficulty will be 30-50% harder by then too.  There's just no margins left basically.  Maybe a huge facility with almost free power power and that cares enough to spend the $480 to hopefully eek out double that amount over the next three years of running the machine.

If Bitcoin were to double in the year, doesn't even make sense to buy one ASIC... difficulty will only pile on faster.  Even in 2017 when it was all time high, difficult was much lower than it is now.  The demand has been met, it would look like... only thin margins remain.

GPUs are still worth 40% of what they cost, but man, they'll keep dropping too.  Already been a year since the 20xx series were announced.

If you are worried about losing money on hardware then you should just stick with GPUs. They will always have a market for Gamers and Youtube Video renders, while ASICs on the other hand become expensive door stops.

If you buy a bunch of second hand GPUs these days they won't go down in value too much unless you are getting the high end Nvidia stuff. If you buy a new ASIC today then most likely you will lose alot of money if BTC starts a bear market in the near future.

So you are better off just not buying ASICs, especially since its going to be a hassle getting 240V.

Yeah the ASICs just aren't worth it.  Only if BTC stays exactly the same or drops, is it worth it, actually!  (difficulty staying the same or going down and pushing out the higher power cost miners who can't do it profitably)  If BTC goes up - it's pointless, because the BTC sent to BitMain would have gone up too.  Always the same story.

Wish we could rent a time machine, then I could tell myself to wait to get GPUs secondhand a year later instead of at MSRP!  I guess they'll just stay the course for now and re-evaluate.  It is true, even if the bottom falls out on all GPU alts, they really won't drop more than now, not until maybe another generation of GTX comes out.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

And it's funny how eager people are to tell other people to just change their electricity - trust me, there are some situations where you just CAN'T...   (i.e., breaker panel is in your landlord's house, office, etc., not in your unit, and so on.)

[joblo]

Depending on the jurisdiction you would have to do more than "consult" an electrician.
You nay be required to have an electrician either do the work or certify it.

But yes 240V is just using the +120 and -120 (red & black) with heavier gauge wiring and a
bigger dual pole breaker. That's how the stove and dryer do it.

lol @ +120 and -120 on an AC circuit ffs.

Yeah, just take one leg from 1 breaker and the other leg instead of a neutral from another breaker and you can get a 240v circuit from a couple 120v outlets....make your own power cable that plug into both outlets to do it and it's done...but don't call it +120 and -120 lol...no such thing.  If you don't understand how to make a 240v cable from neighboring 120v circuits then you shouldn't try it.  Sidenote:  "heavier gauge" is absolute nonsense since you are effectively halving the current versus a single 120v circuit.  For crying out loud...if you don't understand basic household electrical wiring don't go giving fucking advice on customizing someone's home where they likely wish to sleep without risk of being burned to the ground.

Hell, I run 240v through "normal" 120v receptacles in my mining room.  You can do a whole bunch of shit if you know wtf you are doing....but to "give advice" and say stupid shit like +120 line and -120 line???  wtf?  Next you will call it 2 phase....ugh.

You ignored the first paragraph.

Mind your manners, learn how to read, stop picking nits and don't hijack the thread
to start a flame war. Any merit your post might have otherwise had was lost by your
inflammatory attitude.

I could have gone into long technical detail of split phase but the simplified description
makes it easier to understand how how 240v is achieved and was not the central point of
my post. You're the reckless one bragging about running 240v through 120v recepticals.
An electrician would rip you a new one for that.

Getting back on topic and where I started was that an electician, by law, must either do the work
to add 240v circuits, or certify it before it can be connected to the grid.